quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Bwanamich,

quote:

A simple question: What have anti-hunting orgs done for conservation in say Tanzania? Mozambique? Zimbabwe? Uganda? Cameroon? CAR? Chad? Sudan? Other than Kenya which is the anti's pet project because they have found greedy politicians that will do as they want for $$, please educate us on the conservation successes in these countries funded by IFAW, Lion Aid, and any of the other animal welfare groups.

Truthfully i cannot answer this at present. I will however get back to you with an answer.

quote:

And if non hunting is the answer, why has Kenya failed so miserably after 3 decades of anti-hunting policy and billions of $$ from their animal welfare friends? Why is there less wildlife despite there being such a well developed photo tourism sector?

I don't think banning hunting altogether is the answer. Like you say Kenya's wildlife continues to decline and i fear will continue to do so.
I personally believe that despite people donating $$ as you have said that it is not put towards the conservation of their animals.

I believe that for conservation of any species to work there are many factors involved. To name but a few the governments of the countries need to spend more money on protecting them from things such as poaching and disease. They need to stop being bought off by whatever section they are being and act in the animals best interests.
Hunters, outfitters et al need to act on any corruption, ill practice etc that they know is being practiced.
Governing bodies regarding hunting need to ensure rules are being followed and stop corrupt practice.

Unfortunately i do not believe that these things will happen voluntarily if at all which is why i would back a temporary lion hunting ban to force their hands if they want to hunt lion again.

When the poachers see more value in keeping the animals being poached being kept alive, you'll have your solution to that problem. It would seem to me that the Kenya situation does not represent a solution.

"...They need to stop being bought off by whatever section they are being and act in the animals best interests..."

Unles they are bough off by the bunny hugger brigade you mean?

You see why I call you lot hypocrites?

It is OK for you to buy the politicians, but not for others to do the same?

if anyone on either side of the fence thinks that ANYTHING can stop corruption in Africa, they live in a dream world. for every honest politician/government official in Africa there are 5 crooked ones. if you think otherwise, you haven't been there. try crossing a border checkpoint, checking in a gun at an airport, driving through a security checkpoint.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
if anyone on either side of the fence thinks that ANYTHING can stop corruption in Africa, they live in a dream world. for every honest politician/government official in Africa there are 5 crooked ones. if you think otherwise, you haven't been there. try crossing a border checkpoint, checking in a gun at an airport, driving through a security checkpoint.

WRONG!

I have NEVER seen a single HONEST politician, in Africa or elsewhere!

But, that is getting away from the subject here.

The bunny huggers have been bribing their way around Kenya, and any time they is any likeliyhhod of changing the laws, they scream it is because of hunters bribing the policians!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


I have NEVER seen a single HONEST politician, in Africa or elsewhere!

Saeed

I know that it is hard to understand, but here in the US we choose our political affiliation and then believe everything "our guys" say. And we think that everyone on the other side is a bunch of liars.

An odd thing about the US, we tend to believe that every other country is corrupt but that we are above all that stuff just because the corruption here is only allowed at the top.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
if anyone on either side of the fence thinks that ANYTHING can stop corruption in Africa, they live in a dream world. for every honest politician/government official in Africa there are 5 crooked ones. if you think otherwise, you haven't been there. try crossing a border checkpoint, checking in a gun at an airport, driving through a security checkpoint.

WRONG!

I have NEVER seen a single HONEST politician, in Africa or elsewhere!

But, that is getting away from the subject here.

The bunny huggers have been bribing their way around Kenya, and any time they is any likeliyhhod of changing the laws, they scream it is because of hunters bribing the policians!

i stand corrected and when i give it some thought you are right. i have also never seen an honest politician/government official in Africa, although i heard a rumor once that one had been spotted Malawai( later found to be UNTRUE). Saeed, do you really think PETA, HSUS, RSPCA, etc. would stoop so low as to bribe Kenyan officials?? surely not!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Gentlemen,

We have specific rules for banning anyone.

Just out of curiousity, what are they?

Basically one has to be very obnoxious in his or her behaviour to get banned from here.

We always ask that member to refrain from whatever he is doing, and if he does not listen, he gets banned.

quote:

When the poachers see more value in keeping the animals being poached being kept alive, you'll have your solution to that problem. It would seem to me that the Kenya situation does not represent a solution.

7MMnut,

I would suggest that perhaps devaluing the product poachers are trying to sell would be a good step. Often i see piles of rhino horn, elephant tusk etc that have been seized and are now being burnt.
Would it not be a better solution to flood the market with these seized goods therefore lowering the value ? Lower value hopefully equalling less benefit for a poacher.
Also the revenue raised could be put back into conservation.

quote:

"...They need to stop being bought off by whatever section they are being and act in the animals best interests..."

Unles they are bough off by the bunny hugger brigade you mean?

You see why I call you lot hypocrites?

It is OK for you to buy the politicians, but not for others to do the same?

Saeed, No that's not what i mean nor what i said. I said WHOEVER is paying them off and let's be frank here there is corruption in every walk of life.
For years i have heard how hunters and associates have deep pockets and pay well. For a few month now i have been hearing from you how conservation groups have deep pockets, i've never actually seen proof of either to be fair.
I am not so naive or stupid as to think that some conservation groups do not practice pay offs but neither am i going to believe that hunters and associates are little angels either.

quote:

if anyone on either side of the fence thinks that ANYTHING can stop corruption in Africa, they live in a dream world. for every honest politician/government official in Africa there are 5 crooked ones. if you think otherwise, you haven't been there. try crossing a border checkpoint, checking in a gun at an airport, driving through a security checkpoint.

Perhaps i am an idealist. However just because we think things can't change doesn't make it so. Surely we (generic) shouldn't just lie down and accept the situation?

quote:

The bunny huggers have been bribing their way around Kenya, and any time they is any likeliyhhod of changing the laws, they scream it is because of hunters bribing the policians!

Saeed,

Very true. But if the antis are paying Kenya to keep it how it is how come there are signs of the law changing. Surely if they are paying Kenya would just leave things alone, no sign of change?

quote:

I know that it is hard to understand, but here in the US we choose our political affiliation and then believe everything "our guys" say. And we think that everyone on the other side is a bunch of liars.

An odd thing about the US, we tend to believe that every other country is corrupt but that we are above all that stuff just because the corruption here is only allowed at the top.

JBrown,

We choose our politicians too. However we also know that every one is more than likely as bent as they come just like any country.

quote:

I am not so naive or stupid

But you re a bloody liar.
While you sit here pretending to care and supposedly having an open mind you are busy raising money to ban trophy imports.

http://www.lionaid.org/event/2...n-aid-of-lionaid.htm

Jo and Alan Burn are raising funds to help finance our ongoing campaign to bring about a ban on the importation of lion trophies into the EU. The auction will take place on Twitter, Ebay and Facebook.

As I said before, she is simply wasting your time talking bollocks while she goes on doing things which if she had half a brain she would have realized are going to damage lion populations more than anything.

Jo and Alan Burn, you are a pack of bleeding heart morons who are actively killing lions off with your efforts. When they are gone please tell your children(god forbid you should be allowed to breed) they have to look at them in Zoo's because you were bleeding hearts with no minds rather than opening your ears and looking at reality.

Conservationists my ass, you simply need a good fight to keep you happy. Do us all a favor and move to Iraq or Afghanistan, plenty of meaningless fighting for you to get involved in. How about you try and prove who is the better, Suni or Shiite. Or how about a Hutu and Tootsi death mach for you to take part in.

African hunters quest,

That's right and i have openly talked about raising funds for Lion Aid and the auction i have been arranging.

Please show me where i have lied?

Please refrain from bringing my husband into a conversation he has no part of. That is bang out of order.

As for Afghanistan and Iraq perhaps you would wish to take that up with someone else. Contrary to what you probably think or believe it is not the UK's war and noone here wanted to be involved.

I would also suggest perhaps you could act rationally instead of emotionally and stop hurling the wannabe insults around. Its pretty pathetic, getting boring and has no effect on mw whatsoever.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
Saeed, do you really think PETA, HSUS, RSPCA, etc. would stoop so low as to bribe Kenyan officials?? surely not!

No, but IFAW does !

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

Saeed,

Very true. But if the antis are paying Kenya to keep it how it is how come there are signs of the law changing. Surely if they are paying Kenya would just leave things alone, no sign of change?

[/QUOTE]
So long as the Conservation groups are providing the dollars you surely cant believe the Kenyan government are not going to be prepared to squeeze more out of them with threats of policy change?
This is going on in Tanzania with the proposed Highway through the Serengeti. One can only guess how much these naive so called conservation groups are paying to prevent this threat.

Ozhunter,

You may very well be right.

Let's cut to the chase here though!
Both sides point the finger at each other and say 'you are corrupt, you pay money to have your way'.
Both sides deny this occurs.

I personally am willing to concede that neither side is perfect and that both have their corrupt aspects.

Are you (generic) willing to accept that there are actually in fact some things that need to change, be cleaned up in the hunting industry?

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Ozhunter,

You may very well be right.

Let's cut to the chase here though!
Both sides point the finger at each other and say 'you are corrupt, you pay money to have your way'.
Both sides deny this occurs.

I personally am willing to concede that neither side is perfect and that both have their corrupt aspects.

Are you (generic) willing to accept that there are actually in fact some things that need to change, be cleaned up in the hunting industry?

Most certainly no side is perfect BUT "on the ground" its just plain visible that sport hunting IS a major contributor in modern wildlife conservation no matter how much that hurts someone's feelings that just FACT.

Ozhunter,

Yep it hurts my feelings on an emotional level.

However on a rational level i have made my feelings clear on numerous occasions despite it being ignored by some.

I can understand hunting as a conservation tool and all that goes with it as beneficial, i just dont think it is working in all places at present and can be improved on by administering changes.

Black and White bunny shoes, apparently.

One of the lots for auction to raise money for lionaid.

I put it to the floor that these people are somewhat confused...

Ghubert,

Ladies shoes confuse you?

They have indeed been donated alongside many beautiful drawings of lions, signed wildlife dvd's, signed books, football memorabilia, speedway signed pics, limited edition beer tshirts, glasses etc etc.

In this context they do.

Fake fur is fake murder, or something...

Ban feet!

Why can't we mention your husband?

He is in it just like you, trying your best to stop us from doing what we enjoy, and at the same time conserve wildlife.

You and your husband are the worst enemies of wildlife, just like all the rest of the bunny huggers.

Jo, everything about what you do is FAKE!

All you lot are doing is blind siding the ignorant masses to line your own pockets.

Let me ask you something?

How much have you and your husband collected for this project?

And where has the money been spent?

Ghuber,

They are called bunny shoes because of the Hugh Heffner bob tail on them. They are not real rabbit.

Saeed,

quote:

Why can't we mention your husband?

He is in it just like you, trying your best to stop us from doing what we enjoy, and at the same time conserve wildlife.

You and your husband are the worst enemies of wildlife, just like all the rest of the bunny huggers.

Jo, everything about what you do is FAKE!

All hou lot are doing is blind siding the ignorant masses to line your own pockets.

Let me ask you something?

How much have you and your husband collected for this project?

And where has the money been spent?

Can i mention your family and what they do and don't do?

You have no idea about my husband and therefore have no right to judge him.

Now i have always addressed your questions please show the same courtesy and address mine for once.

Can you honestly say there is no corruption in the hunting industry?

How much of the fees you pay to hunt go to conservation?

Can you say exactly what that percentage gets spent on?

Sorry Saeed i didn't answer your questions then. Fundraising is ongoing so i can't tell you how much has been raised. When the auction is complete i will gladly share that info with you. I can tell you that a specialised item we auctioned here in the pub raised £65.

As for what it will be spent on, it will be funding upcoming travel to various places for meetings to discuss lions.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Ghuber,

They are called bunny shoes because of the Hugh Heffner bob tail on them. They are not real rabbit.

Saeed,

quote:

Why can't we mention your husband?

He is in it just like you, trying your best to stop us from doing what we enjoy, and at the same time conserve wildlife.

You and your husband are the worst enemies of wildlife, just like all the rest of the bunny huggers.

Jo, everything about what you do is FAKE!

All hou lot are doing is blind siding the ignorant masses to line your own pockets.

Let me ask you something?

How much have you and your husband collected for this project?

And where has the money been spent?

Can i mention your family and what they do and don't do?

You have no idea about my husband and therefore have no right to judge him.

Now i have always addressed your questions please show the same courtesy and address mine for once.

Can you honestly say there is no corruption in the hunting industry?

How much of the fees you pay to hunt go to conservation?

Can you say exactly what that percentage gets spent on?

Jo,

My family is not involved in the running of this website. While your husband is helping you raise money to stop us hunting.

So with "...They have indeed been donated alongside many beautiful drawings of lions, signed wildlife dvd's, signed books, football memorabilia, speedway signed pics, limited edition beer tshirts, glasses etc etc..."

And you have only collected 65 pounds?

Where has the rest gone?

Jo, you are a fake and your husband is too. That is his name along with yours next to the lion aid auction is it not.

So this money you are raising will pay for people like you to travel around and talk about lions. Well done, you really are making an impact.

The money us hunters raise actually makes it onto the ground in Africa, where the lions live and die. Where people avoid snaring and killing them because they are getting hunting money in their pockets.
We are doing our bit, what have you done that has actually saved a lion in Africa.

As for knowing or not knowing your husband, we seem to know about as much about him as you know bout lions in Africa.

Now tell me please, was that him modeling the bunny shoes? And do you hug him more when he wears them?

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

When the poachers see more value in keeping the animals being poached being kept alive, you'll have your solution to that problem. It would seem to me that the Kenya situation does not represent a solution.

7MMnut,

I would suggest that perhaps devaluing the product poachers are trying to sell would be a good step. Often i see piles of rhino horn, elephant tusk etc that have been seized and are now being burnt.
Would it not be a better solution to flood the market with these seized goods therefore lowering the value ? Lower value hopefully equalling less benefit for a poacher.
Also the revenue raised could be put back into conservation.

Well I was referring to hunting in general, but I'll go with this. Assuming the gov't seized stockpiles of rhino horn and/or ele tusks is significant with respect to the supply making it to the black market is just that, an assumption, and may have no or little effect on the black market values. But let's assume that it is large enough to drop the price significantly enough and that combined with making it legal to buy causes poaching to stop as you suggest.

Will that reduce demand for these products? I would say no and it may actually cause demand to go up since it would now be legal to purchase these horns and tusks. So now with hunting of these animals still illegal and poaching has stopped as you desire, how long will this supply last? Certainly not indefinitely and when the supply runs out, your idea fails. Poaching will once again begin because the demand for the product will still exist.

De-valuation of the wildlife will not work.

The various antelope species will always have value. This value can be realized as a huntable species that helps provide income to the local people. As such, the need for maintaing healthy herds will be understood. If hunting is illegal, they'll represent value as another source of protein but maintaining the herds will not come into play.

With regards to predators, the value again can be realized as a huntable species. If hunting of these animals is illegal, there will be value seen in killing the predators to protect domesticated livestock.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:


As for what it will be spent on, it will be funding upcoming travel to various places for meetings to discuss lions.

Be sure and take this picture with you to "meetings". While you are sipping wine and patting each other on the back about how much you are doing to "save" the Lion I would like you to look around. How close is the nearest snared Lion to your meeting and how is your meeting going to prevent the next one?





Meanwhile a savage hunter like myself or my wife will be pulling a leatherman from their belt after spending our own money, and not funds donated by Sheeple, for the honor to cut some snares found while hunting.



Those snares were taken to the local community on the hunting concession and a dressing down occurred with the headman by my PH. A few hours later the headman radio'd my PH that the two poachers had been captured and our game scout handed them over to the authorities.

Enjoy your Sheeple provided wine. You are not only doing NOTHING directly for the wild Lion, you are opposing the few that are actually doing something proven to be beneficial for not only the Lion but for the other game the Lion needs to survive.

Congrats on your business plan.

JO
Why don't you rather raise funds to stop this

All this thread has done is give her a third platform upon which she can speak. If we stop the discourse and ignore her she will no longer have the opportunity to respond with her views.

quote:

Where has the rest gone?

Every item for the auction is being stored in my house until all lots have been recieved. Then they will be auctioned off. So the money hasn't 'gone' anywhere.
The specialised lot was done in house because of its relevance to the area i live in. The money from that is right now in my safe where it shall stay until the auction has been held and i send a cheque to Lion Aid.

7MMNut,

Assuming you are correct then what do you think should be done to prevent poaching?
Anything being done right now is not working, you only have to look at the numbers of rhino poached this year already compared to last year to know this.

Frostbit,

With the greatest will in the world i will not be attending said meetings and you have no idea who these meetings are with or what they can potentially achieve.
You only think you know.

fvh40,

How do you know i don't?

jolouburn,

Have you read he following book by Peter Flack? You should before you finalize your opinion on on sports hunting. Except for the massive amounts of money sport hunters pay to preserve their hobby, sports hunters kill so few animals that the loss of those relatively small numbers have almost no effect on the overall wildlife populations - a population far far more effected by habitat loss, disease, starvation, and poaching. You are truly "shooting" yourself and your cause in the foot by what you're doing. If you want more wildlife and wildlife habitat, join us, because we are both conservationists. We really want the same thing!!

Regards, AIU


SA CONSERVATION SUCCESS STORY

Price 145.00 [ZAR]

Follow the causes of the greatest destruction of wildlife this country has ever seen and then see how people rallied to protect our wildlife legacy. Discover the facts to help you make sound decisions about our wildlife and their future conservation, how thousands of outdoors people like you are keeping wild animals plentiful in our country and how you can do even more to ensure this great heritage.
This 64-page book, filled with many beautiful photographs, is produced by Peter Flack Productions. It traces the history of conservation and, at times, the lack thereof, from 1652 to the present. It is based on the very successful documentary by the same name which was launched in high definition DVD in March 2011. Canadian wildlife biologist, Shane Mahoney, SANParks CEO, Dr. David Mabunda, and Peter Flack, a lawyer, businessman, conservationist and retired game rancher, contributed to the content. In the first part, the book traces the real causes – commercial hunting and farmers killing for food and to make way for domestic livestock as well as drought, disease, war and government intervention – behind the dramatic decline in wildlife numbers to barely half a million game animals by 1964 and then what gave rise to the dramatic recovery to some 19 million animals by 2005. In part two, it examines the role of the private sector and government in the various initiatives which assisted in this recovery before taking a careful look at current events and the challenges facing wildlife and its conservation in modern day South Africa. The book sets out, for the first time, the real facts behind the quiet conservation revolution that has swept across the country over the last 100 years or so. The rationale has been to provide the reader with a factual foundation upon which to base sound decisions affecting wildlife and its conservation in the belief that, if these decisions are taken, wildlife will be with us in South Africa providing opportunities for all in perpetuity.

Binding, size and pages: Hard cover, 21.5 cm x 28.5 cm, 64 pages
Date Published: 2011
Published by : Peter Flack Productions

I'll say again:-

quote:

I don't think banning hunting altogether is the answer. Like you say Kenya's wildlife continues to decline and i fear will continue to do so.
I personally believe that despite people donating $$ as you have said that it is not put towards the conservation of their animals.

I believe that for conservation of any species to work there are many factors involved. To name but a few the governments of the countries need to spend more money on protecting them from things such as poaching and disease. They need to stop being bought off by whatever section they are being and act in the animals best interests.
Hunters, outfitters et al need to act on any corruption, ill practice etc that they know is being practiced.
Governing bodies regarding hunting need to ensure rules are being followed and stop corrupt practice.

Unfortunately i do not believe that these things will happen voluntarily if at all which is why i would back a temporary lion hunting ban to force their hands if they want to hunt lion again.

So in short if the hunting industry and all those involved clean up their act i will support hunting as a conservation tool.
Whilst they do not and do not even acknowledge it goes on i will not.

Lions are in decline and nothing being done at present is stopping that. This needs to change.

Ackley improved user,

I haven't but i will try to get a copy and certainly do so.

Thank you for this.

jolouburn,

I recently returned from a safaris in Mozambique and during my stay the owner of the hunting concession (Simon Roger) and his professrional hunters spent almost as much time tracking down poachers as they did hunting.

The sports hunting was done according to the rules and quotas established by the government. The poachers had no quotas, except kill everything they could using indiscriminant horrific snares and the like. The locals didn't care - some of them were the poachers; and, the government officials were more interested in getting laid, partying, and eating the meat.

Without Simon Roger, whose livelihood depended upon there being wildlife and sports hunting, nobody else in the region cared about the animals.

You should go on safaris and see for yourself that I'm telling the truth. Simon's concession is Safaris de Mozambique. He'll take you on a wonderful safaris. You don't have to shoot, maybe take pictures, but mostly just to see what they are about. Maybe you can get involved with tracking down a few poachers, although that's very dangerous game, poachers carry AK-47's and can shoot! In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that currently more professional hunters are killed by poachers, while the professional hunters are trying to protect the wildlife, than are killed by dangerous game.

Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Why can't we mention your husband?

He is in it just like you, trying your best to stop us from doing what we enjoy, and at the same time conserve wildlife.

You and your husband are the worst enemies of wildlife, just like all the rest of the bunny huggers.

Jo, everything about what you do is FAKE!

All hou lot are doing is blind siding the ignorant masses to line your own pockets.

Let me ask you something?

How much have you and your husband collected for this project?

And where has the money been spent?

Can i mention your family and what they do and don't do?

You have no idea about my husband and therefore have no right to judge him.

Now i have always addressed your questions please show the same courtesy and address mine for once.

Can you honestly say there is no corruption in the hunting industry?

How much of the fees you pay to hunt go to conservation?

Can you say exactly what that percentage gets spent on?

Jolouburn, Saeed can speak for himself since it is he that you are asking!

However, I can enlighten you some on this matter as if you really wanted to know, which I very much doubt!

The money paid by the hunter for the daily fees and gratuities goes to the safari company and the camp employees. The trophy fees that are paid for by the hunter, plus license fees gun permits, tax on the hunter’s ammo imported into the country, and concession fees got the parks and wildlife dept to fund wildlife wardens in the field to guard against poaching, and to make sure the law is followed by the hunters, and safari companies. What isn’t spent on wildlife goes to build schools and small clinics for the locals who share the habitat with the wild life in the hunting areas.

The African locals do not hunt for sport, because hunting is hard work, and the simply don’t need to in the hunting areas because the locals get most of the meat anyway, and many are afforded day work in the hunting camps. The African locals kill an animal for only two reasons, for meat or to protect his livestock. As long as he can work in the camps, and get the meat anyway he will protect the animals from poachers because they are valuable to him and his family. The poachers (ILLEGALS) on the other hand illegal are market hunters that sell the meat, and/or ivory of whole herds killed by automatic weapons, regardless of the fact some of those animals are truly endangered, the elephant not being one that is endangered, and to the poacher it is simply meat and/or ivory to be sold.

Because the hunting industry assigns value to the animals that are on quota (surplus % that can be harvested) that not only benefits the government but the locals who live in the hunting concessions the locals protect them by destroying snares and turning in poachers. I the animals weren’t valuable to the locals, and they didn’t benefit from them with the meat and day work in the camps, they too would be poaching for the meat to feed their families.

I Kenya where they stopped all hunting, lions are being poisoned by the hundreds to protect the livestock, and the snares are everywhere to get the meat for themselves or to sell to city people. The only place where any wildlife will be seen is in the parks where they are guarded by park rangers and heavy traffic by camera nuts, and still they are being poached even there. The rest of Kenya is devoid of wildlife all together. Out side parks Quote“Where there is not hunting there is no game, not the other way around!” By Peter Hathaway Capstick, author of Death In the Long Grass.

I animals are of no benefit to the local people who share the habitat and compete for the food that the habitat supplies with meat from the wild life, then the wild life will be removed in favor of PEOPLE, and the means the animals will be replaced with cattle, and goats, and a plow. Once a plow is set to the land it will never again be suitable for massive amounts of large wildlife!

These are facts not emotion. If the animal right folks want to do something that will truly conserve wild life, and endangered animals the best direction to follow is that of the hunter who simply takes the surplus that protects the habitat that benefits ALL wildlife not just game animals. Done properly wild life is a renewable resourse, and nobody wants wildlife to remain viable forever more than the hunter.

No need to respond to me because the current position of animal rights zealots is a political correctness thing that means nothing, but to play on the EMOTIONS of folks who are ignorant of anything to do with the real plight of wildlife the world over, and does far more harm to wildlife that anything, and is simply done in most cases to tap into their bank accounts, nothing more!

I you want to do something that makes sense even to you, then protest the building 1000 acre shopping malls. Do you realize how much habitat just those things take away from wildlife that lived in those 1000 acres, or the thousands on acres leveled and planted to feed the vegan life style.
....................................................................................................end, BYE!

I have considered doing so.

I have absolutely no doubt that most hunters and people in the industry care greatly for the wildlife. I have never disputed that.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

quote:

Why can't we mention your husband?

He is in it just like you, trying your best to stop us from doing what we enjoy, and at the same time conserve wildlife.

You and your husband are the worst enemies of wildlife, just like all the rest of the bunny huggers.

Jo, everything about what you do is FAKE!

All hou lot are doing is blind siding the ignorant masses to line your own pockets.

Let me ask you something?

How much have you and your husband collected for this project?

And where has the money been spent?

Can i mention your family and what they do and don't do?

You have no idea about my husband and therefore have no right to judge him.

Now i have always addressed your questions please show the same courtesy and address mine for once.

Can you honestly say there is no corruption in the hunting industry?

How much of the fees you pay to hunt go to conservation?

Can you say exactly what that percentage gets spent on?

Jolouburn, Saeed can speak for himself since it is he that you are asking!

However, I can enlighten you some on this matter as if you really wanted to know, which I very much doubt!

The money paid by the hunter for the daily fees and gratuities goes to the safari company and the camp employees. The trophy fees that are paid for by the hunter, plus license fees gun permits, tax on the hunter’s ammo imported into the country, and concession fees got the parks and wildlife dept to fund wildlife wardens in the field to guard against poaching, and to make sure the law is followed by the hunters, and safari companies. What isn’t spent on wildlife goes to build schools and small clinics for the locals who share the habitat with the wild life in the hunting areas.

The African locals do not hunt for sport, because hunting is hard work, and the simply don’t need to in the hunting areas because the locals get most of the meat anyway, and many are afforded day work in the hunting camps. The African locals kill an animal for only two reasons, for meat or to protect his livestock. As long as he can work in the camps, and get the meat anyway he will protect the animals from poachers because they are valuable to him and his family. The poachers (ILLEGALS) on the other hand illegal are market hunters that sell the meat, and/or ivory of whole herds killed by automatic weapons, regardless of the fact some of those animals are truly endangered, the elephant not being one that is endangered, and to the poacher it is simply meat and/or ivory to be sold.

Because the hunting industry assigns value to the animals that are on quota (surplus % that can be harvested) that not only benefits the government but the locals who live in the hunting concessions the locals protect them by destroying snares and turning in poachers. I the animals weren’t valuable to the locals, and they didn’t benefit from them with the meat and day work in the camps, they too would be poaching for the meat to feed their families.

I Kenya where they stopped all hunting, lions are being poisoned by the hundreds to protect the livestock, and the snares are everywhere to get the meat for themselves or to sell to city people. The only place where any wildlife will be seen is in the parks where they are guarded by park rangers and heavy traffic by camera nuts, and still they are being poached even there. The rest of Kenya is devoid of wildlife all together. Out side parks “Where there is not hunting there is no game, not the other way around!” By Peter Hathaway Capstick, author of Death In the Long Grass.

I animals are of no benefit to the local people who share the habitat and compete for the food that habitat supplies with that wild life, then the wild life will be removed in favor of PEOPLE, and the means the animals will be replaced with cattle, and goats, and a plow. Once a plow is set to the land it will never again be suitable for massive amounts of large wildlife! These are facts not emotion. If the animal right folks want to do something that will truly conserve wild life, and endangered animals the best direction to follow is the hunter who simply take the surplus that protects the habitat that benefits ALL wildlife not just game animals.

No need to respond to me because the current position of animal rights zealots is a political correctness thing that means nothing, but to play on the EMOTIONS of folks who are ignorant of anything to do with the real plight of wildlife the world over, and does far more harm to wildlife that anything, and is simply done in most cases to tap into their bank accounts, nothing more!

I you want to do something that makes sense even to you, then protest the building 1000 acre shopping malls. Do you realize how much habitat just those things take away from wildlife that lived in those 1000 acres, or the thousands on acres leveled and planted to feed the vegan life style.
....................................................................................................end, BYE!

Good Stuff Mac !!! But a wasted effort on narrow-minded people who refuse to accept the truth on subjects they know SFA about !

Ban her or don't ban her - I don't care!

BUT I did learn a valuable lesson:

When you see someone with an opposing point of view that says "I'm just here trying to understand" - You can't just take'em at their word!

First of all let me say I am a hunter, I agree with lion hunting although I have not hunted lion.

This thread started out with a request to ban a contributor from the site. I consider this to be wrong and an infringement of ones right to express themselves.

It is necessary for each one of us to listen to what others have to say regardless of whether we strongly disagree with them or not eventhough
their views may be misguided.

There are man people who do not hunt but are in favour of hunting and of course there are the ''antis''.

We should open our eyes, ears and minds to all who are willing to discuss hunting for wisdom can often come from a stranger to our sport as well as a friend.

This does not mean we should cow to any ''anti-hunting'' lobby, but rather listen and then give our measured response.

Banning freedom of expression is patently wrong and if we go down that rocky and norrow route then what is going to be banned next ?
(maybe hunting0.

The only reson I could envisage a ban on a contributor is when unparlimentary, foul and
agressive language is used with intent. Other than that we should be let speak our minds.

As regards lions, populations have much declined throuughout Africa, due to human encroachment loss of habitat and wildlife for which the lion much depends upon.

It would be wise therefore if greater conservation efforts were made to improve habitat increase prey species and of course exercise control on hunting where required. This does not mean stopping hunting where lions are locally plentyful.

We all know what happened to the American bison, being nearly on the verge of extinction more than 100 years ago, the whitetail deer and elk also had much declined as had other game animals of the USA. Then common sense prevailed
enabling the US Govenment to introduce laws for the protection of game stocks and control of hunting, which of course costs a lot of money.

Any conservation efforts requires money, now this is where we hunters and other genuinely interested parties come in. We need to put our money where our mouth is or rather put our hand in our pockets and finance real programs to advance and enhance the status of the lion throughout Africa.

Many organizations some international say they are involved in lion conservation for hunting purposes etc. but little of the income they accrue is actually used on the ground, most of it goes into the pockets of the executives !

In the 1970's I was chosen to participate in a discussion with Madeline Murray O'Hare at the Univ. of Texas, Arlington. Pretty lopsided affair if I may say so. She railed and ranted her invectives and expletives directed at us. You would ask a question and she would regurgitate (literally scream) her canned answer. Nothing productive came of the "discussion".

While I am not associating Joloburn's responses on this forum with O'Hare's responses I do believe, as with all who pretend to want to participate in a "discussion" in a rational forum, that it turns into "sense vs. nonsense". Joloburn is agenda driven and refuses to recognize evidence of the logical connection between hunting and conservation because it is not within the framework of her means/end agenda, period.

Dutch

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37
However, I can enlighten you some on this matter as if you really wanted to know, which I very much doubt!

The money paid by the hunter for the daily fees and gratuities goes to the safari company and the camp employees. The trophy fees that are paid for by the hunter, plus license fees gun permits, tax on the hunter’s ammo imported into the country, and concession fees got the parks and wildlife dept to fund wildlife wardens in the field to guard against poaching, and to make sure the law is followed by the hunters, and safari companies. What isn’t spent on wildlife goes to build schools and small clinics for the locals who share the habitat with the wild life in the hunting areas.

The African locals do not hunt for sport, because hunting is hard work, and the simply don’t need to in the hunting areas because the locals get most of the meat anyway, and many are afforded day work in the hunting camps. The African locals kill an animal for only two reasons, for meat or to protect his livestock. As long as he can work in the camps, and get the meat anyway he will protect the animals from poachers because they are valuable to him and his family. The poachers (ILLEGALS) on the other hand illegal are market hunters that sell the meat, and/or ivory of whole herds killed by automatic weapons, regardless of the fact some of those animals are truly endangered, the elephant not being one that is endangered, and to the poacher it is simply meat and/or ivory to be sold.

Because the hunting industry assigns value to the animals that are on quota (surplus % that can be harvested) that not only benefits the government but the locals who live in the hunting concessions the locals protect them by destroying snares and turning in poachers. I the animals weren’t valuable to the locals, and they didn’t benefit from them with the meat and day work in the camps, they too would be poaching for the meat to feed their families.

I Kenya where they stopped all hunting, lions are being poisoned by the hundreds to protect the livestock, and the snares are everywhere to get the meat for themselves or to sell to city people. The only place where any wildlife will be seen is in the parks where they are guarded by park rangers and heavy traffic by camera nuts, and still they are being poached even there. The rest of Kenya is devoid of wildlife all together. Out side parks Quote“Where there is not hunting there is no game, not the other way around!” By Peter Hathaway Capstick, author of Death In the Long Grass.

I animals are of no benefit to the local people who share the habitat and compete for the food that the habitat supplies with meat from the wild life, then the wild life will be removed in favor of PEOPLE, and the means the animals will be replaced with cattle, and goats, and a plow. Once a plow is set to the land it will never again be suitable for massive amounts of large wildlife!

These are facts not emotion. If the animal right folks want to do something that will truly conserve wild life, and endangered animals the best direction to follow is that of the hunter who simply takes the surplus that protects the habitat that benefits ALL wildlife not just game animals. Done properly wild life is a renewable resourse, and nobody wants wildlife to remain viable forever more than the hunter.

No need to respond to me because the current position of animal rights zealots is a political correctness thing that means nothing, but to play on the EMOTIONS of folks who are ignorant of anything to do with the real plight of wildlife the world over, and does far more harm to wildlife that anything, and is simply done in most cases to tap into their bank accounts, nothing more!

I you want to do something that makes sense even to you, then protest the building 1000 acre shopping malls. Do you realize how much habitat just those things take away from wildlife that lived in those 1000 acres, or the thousands on acres leveled and planted to feed the vegan life style.

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch44:
Joloburn is agenda driven and refuses to recognize evidence of the logical connection between hunting and conservation because it is not within the framework of her means/end agenda, period.

Dutch

A very well written, concise and complete explanation by MacD37 but the unfortunate truth written by Dutch44.

She is looking for neither insight nor understanding; she is looking for recruits and ammunition to fight for her position. Like all fanatics, she will not allow facts to affect her beliefs or agenda.

Free speech is better than no speech at all. No Ban.