The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Ban jolouburnGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Ban jolouburn | Login/Join |
One of Us |
People on the local news station here in VT are bitching about a hunter that shot a melanistic hare for supper. Hares are supposed to be white in the winter. This one was destined to be in a stomach sooner or later. I guess it was 'wrong' because a human being shot it for casserole. What's my point? Well, anti hunting tends to develop based on emotions rather than facts and reality. Sport hunters aren't threatening lion populations. Loss of habitat, competiton with livestock and poaching are a far larger problem. Fix that first, I say to you antis and then we will see how the lions really do. ~Ann   | |||
|
| new member |
joluburn, I don't think it's much of an assumption that I'm correct. Your question about the rhino's is proof of this. The fact is as strange as it seems to me there is a demand, a very strong one at that, for rhino horn. I don't get it personally, but I don't have to. The demand is there and with the economic conditions combined I'm sure with corrupt politicians there are those willing to do what it takes to meet that demand. As mentioned I was speaking to hunting in general. To answer your question about what to do, I really don't know. I do know that rhino hunting is illegal and yet as you said yourself, the poaching continues. Whatever the solution is, it will most likely come down to the same thing. Make the animal more valuable to the locals alive then dead. Hunting supports that principle. Until then the poaching will continue. | |||
|
One of Us |
Proof that this anti's main concern is not wildlife but their emotional need to CONTROL PEOPLE. They don't like what people are doing, ie hunting for fun and sport, so irrespective of that trophy hunting providing protein and meat for often close to starving people, their main IRK is that someone is getting fun from hunting animals. So what if it is the secondary aspect, tertiary aspect or primary aspect. It is still a benefit to the local hungry people. Someone living in the UK with a luxury lifestyle like Jo Burn obviously can't stretch her mind to understand that. Sad, their need to want to control people from doing something they personally don't like. | |||
|
One of Us |
Ban Jolouburn? Only if we are frightened by the persuasiveness of her message. I strongly disagree with her views on the culture of hunting and its efficacy as a conservation tool, but if everyone inside of the anti-hunting crowd was as civil, well-spoken, and I believe genuinely curious regarding hunters' perspectives as Jolouburn is, I would have a far more hopeful outlook for the future of hunting. Personally, I respect how she has thoughtfully presented her opinions on a forum intrinsically hostile to her views. And I think us fortunate to have an articulate spokesperson for the other side discussing with us the considerations and strategies of the anti-hunting crowd, strategies that all of us will eventually have to counter in the inevitable and broader public debate on hunting. Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
|
| Administrator |
Kim, I am afraid I have to disagree with you on this one. She and her husband are only interested in getting "donations" from others so they can travel and enjoy themselves. What they are trying to do has abso9lutely nothing with conservation whatsoever. She has already said enough to convince me this is true. May I suggest you read all the posts, and may be have a look at their site as well. I can set up a bleeding hearts site just like theirs in an hour, and get so many of the ignorant masses to "donate" money to me as well as I can post pretty pictures of baby animals they can "adopt" for a small payment every month. European nature magazines are full of these, and I can guarantee you none of the money makes it to save any animals. | |||
|
| One of Us |
 | |||
|
| One of Us |
Someone should start a poll: ban or not ban. | |||
|
one of us |
Count my vote as "no ban", and ad me to ignore! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
|
One of Us |
You just don't want the facts. Why don't you look into places such as Chewore, Sapi,Chirisa,Dande Safari areas. Then the Save and Buby Conservancy's. Then the Niassa and Selous Reserves. These are just a few of the hunting supported reserves with healthy Lion populations. Then ask the management of these fine reserves what type of tourist visit and fund these areas. These areas are primarily sport hunting areas which sustain great wildlife populations. Although totalling an area as large as several European country's they are in fact surrounded by people that would rather turn these wild areas into farmland. By degrading the value of these great animals, do you really think these area will remain unspoilt? Is it a better move to devalue them to the point where they are considered pests in there home range such as what has happened in Kenya. I have visited most of these area and have enjoyed sightings of lion often and as nice as Kenya is I have yet to see Lion in any reserve let alone in communal type land. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I personally have no problem with this hare being shot as a food source.
Strange how you copied and pasted me saying it was beneficial yet then go on to say how i can't see it's beneficial!! I have a luxury lifestyle in the UK compared to who? Probably many African villager yes but compared to many here probably not. Compared to say people who can afford to go to Africa once, twice a year i certainly do not, compared to members of royal families i do not. What is it you (generic) think the UK is like and it's people to come up with all the assumptions you do?
Saeed, You know very well that everything you say here is a LIE. The last time i travelled was in October last year, i visited my parents in a remote village in Spain where they live for four days. Previous to that was my honeymoon in South Africa where i spent a fortnight in 2010. Prior to that i hadn't travelled for a number of years. I would suggest you are far more well travelled than i am. I heard somewhere you like to fly united emirates, a classy airline by all accounts. Lion Aid is not as you well know my website nor do i have any part in running it or the organisation. | |||
|
| One of Us |
As for all other posts suggesting i do not understand and cannot see the value of hunting as a conservation tool or the financial input it has into many places, well i'm not sure whether we have a language barrier or a case of ignoring what one doesn't want to see. I will reiterate that i do NOT want to see an overall ban of hunting. I will reiterate that i would back a temporary ban on lion hunting until populations are more stable and corruptness in all aspects of hunting has been eradicated. I will reiterate that the biggest problems lions face are disease, poaching, human encroachment/conflict, loss of territory etc. I still say lions are not sustainable to be hunted at the rate they are at present. See above factors as well as trophy hunting. A paper was presented here recently that stated limited offtake was better than no offtake. I commented on this a few pages back so won't do so again. However a new paper has been unveiled which states overhunting is viable. Written by Peter Lindsey, Guy Balme, Vernon Booth and Neil Midlane it says '“…over-hunting is likely to pose little threat to the long term persistence of lions.' There seems to be quite a large difference of opinion here, kill more, kill less! | |||
|
| One of Us |
The average person is immensely wealthy compared to the average African villager living in the bush. As for what the UK is like, well I lived there for a couple of years, and know very well. Your comparison to the "average person" on here, shows your biases and the typical anti envy of persons wealthier than yourself. But first it is not true that everyone on here and who hunts in Africa is wealthy. Some of us just make different decisions, make do and save. Amazing what one can do with savings. But the average anti hunter in the UK is a product of the "class hate" system, which is one reason they are against hunting. They think they are too poor to hunt, so no one should. I think you fit this description. And Saeed is pretty spot on, IMO your charity is like a lot of anti and greenie charities where the main benefits go to those running the charity. I note you dodged the question - just how are the donations made to you actually spent? Saying "I write a cheque to LionAid", is dodging the question. Something to hide perhaps? As for the first statements, all I did was quote you where you seem to think eg hunting for trophies is somehow lesser because providing meat for the hungry locals is only a "secondary" aspect. So that benefit is somehow of lesser importance. If you bothered to read 10% of some of the arguments posted here, of hunting providing an economic reason to locals for sustainable conservation, managing wildlife, making wildlife have some value for the locals, by sporting hunters paying for the privilege of hunting, then you wouldn't be sprouting the crap still. But accepting that won't have the sheeples donating into your pockets as readily, hey? | |||
|
| One of Us |
100% correct These are simply the zealots of the conservation world. Eco Terrorists infringing on other peoples freedoms and profiting from it. Hell I would love to travel on free money to chit chat about a cause I have not interest in other than its ability to finance my travels. Lets throw ethics out the window, oh and how about honesty. | |||
|
| One of Us |
If i wished to hunt i would save and hunt. I don't therefore i choose to spend my money on other things such as holidays to see my parents, speedway meetings, sponsoring speedway riders, books, visits to stately homes. No i didn't dodge the question, i answered it. I see you choose to ignore this. I make absolutely no money from any of my efforts for conservation. You also really shouldn't throw stones when you live in glass houses. How about addressing the corruption within the hunting industry et al before barking at others to do the same. Hypocritical much! Oh and living in the UK two years really doesn't give you much right to judge those who live here. Did you travel whilst here? How much of the UK did you REALLY see? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Do you really want to talk about ethics African hunters quest? With the corruption in the hunting industry i would suggest not! | |||
|
| One of Us |
wow, so emotional! seems the anti-hunters always lead with emotions and not facts. Bob | |||
|
One of Us |
I think it commendable when someone volunteers time and money in the furthering of humanitarian efforts. But I must ask, when you travel about to speak, do you not also participate in dinners, parties, and other fund raising social events? And when you do, do you pay your own way or is it considered part of your operational costs? Are your meals, lodging, drinks, transportation, and "incidentals" paid for out of pocket or are they reimbursed as part of an expense account? Do you receive any sort of per diem payment? If all of your expenses are paid out of pocket then nobody can claim your motives and activities are anything but noble. However, if you operate with an expense account and receive reimbursement then your motives become suspect. Cocktails, dinners, and gala events are, at minimum, perks and in and of themselves a form of payment. I consider schmoozing on donated coin a red flag of impropriety. | |||
|
| Administrator |
And how long have YOU lived in Africa? And what right do YOU have to change the livelihood of those living there? Because that is precisely what you are trying to do. Hundred of thousands Africans work in the hunting industry, which you are conveniently turning a blind eye to, to satisfy your own convoluted sense of conservation. You see what I mean when I call your lot HYPOCRITES! You only look at one side of the argument - YOUR OWN - and completely forget that there is another side to consider! | |||
|
| One of Us |
 +1 | |||
|
| One of Us |
That is funny as hell!!!  Especially coming from someone who has NEVER hunted anything and whose only exposure to Africa, its game and lions in particular was from a couple of days of taking photos from a car in a National park!! To top it off she is trying to tell others how to best "conserve" game animals.I repeat my last comment about her...  Since you claim to be a "writer", how about posting links to anything you have ever written and actually have had published....other than BLOG postings and forum comments. Just had another idea - let's all of us on AR start a move to have "Speedway" racing in the UK banned. After all think of all the wasted fuel, injuries to the riders, carbon emissions from the bikes, the cars or whatever people use to go to the events and heaven forbid all the dangerous CO2 that is being given off by all those who attend. My new personal motto: "Save the planet, ban Speedway in the UK!" | |||
|
| One of Us |
and dont forget the emotional appeal Bob | |||
|
| One of Us |
http://www.speedway-forum.co.u...howtopic=65233&st=75 Jo It seems you just like to tell people how to live and whats ok and whats not. I guess you like to think you are god and that us mortals must do as you say, or else. Well up yours chick. You are a pest, a plague and nothing more than an irritation. So now you have alienated your Speedway "Buddies", whats next. You going to take on lesbians and tell them to stop munching carpet. You are a jackass who likes to fight. Nothing more. Good luck with putting blankets over lion statues, you really are making an impact there. Might even make it to the local pubs news board. Watch out for those darts by the way, wouldn't want to pop that bubble you seem to like floating in. One last thing Jo, if you want to be a public figure you might want to watch your weight, also that thatch grass hair do you have would work well whilst hunting lion but it may confuse people as to your gender. Now oh yes, back to the topic. I have been so touched by your emotional outcry that I have decided to stop hunting lions and even better, I am going to adopt one. Now can I give you some money for your efforts? | |||
|
| One of Us |
I wonder what Jo Louise and Alan Burn do in real life? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Jo Burn So how exactly do you spend the money given in donations? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Willing to bet she is not making her living being a "writer". Willing to be the majority of her (their) income is from the "pubic sector" i.e. a government bureaucrat of some sort, on "the dole", or some other kind of leach feeding off of the citizenry. Almost forgot to add: "Save the planet - ban Speedway in the UK". By the way, I'm now accepting "donations" to set up a web site and become an "anti-speedway activist". I'll also use the money to travel to the UK to attend Speedway events and protest. Maybe I can find some small little fuzzy critter that lives near the speedways, claim it is "endangered" by all the "fumes" and CO2 being produced and try to get all the tracks shut down. Anybody want to help? | |||
|
| One of Us |
 And we all thought you were a "jacked up broad"  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Grenadier, As i do not attend any such events i make nothing out of them. I have nothing to do with Lion Aid other than raising funds for them through an auction which at the moment has only cost me time i am more than willing to give. Financially i have spent very little relatively and gained nothing. Saeed, Again you are telling pork pies. I am not seeking to end hunting just put a temporary ban on lion hunting. You conveniently turn a blind eye to everything i say that doesn't fit your agenda of berating me. m3taco, Feel free to proetest against speedway. I respect your right to do so. Which blogs do you claim i have written? If you want to see my work, look for it. African hunters quest, How grown up and valid your argument is. Personal insults - wow what a man! I guess you were one of those who ganged up here on over weight hunters or do you reserve that just for me. If so i feel oh so special. Nitrox, How do I spend donations? Simple i don't. How do groups like Lion Aid? Ask them. m3taco, I indeed do not earn my living from writing, that is just a hobby part time. Anything i earn from it a bonus. As for what i actually do i have stated many, many times. It's an awful shame instead of being able to discuss anything like adults you have to lower yourself to personal insults. You do yourselves great credit! | |||
|
| One of Us |
fujotpu, A jacked up broad? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Just a crazy, self-important bioch with an internet connection and a key board leaching off the public to feed her need to feel "important". Fact is she claims to be a "writer" and "researching" for articles she is "writing" but apparently has never been "published" anywhere except some BLOG's and forums. jolouburn = "Save the Plant - Ban Speedway in the UK!" | |||
|
| One of Us |
m3taco, Thanks for the clarification  | |||
|
one of us |
Very well thought out argument Adam. And one Ms. Burns chose to ignore. Which is why I feel responding to her is a waste of time. There is such a vast chasm between our life experiences and how we view the world and the animals and people therein, it seems we will never be able to see eye-to-eye. When I say the words "African hunting". What comes to mind? I think first of African nights, reliving the day's events with hunters and friends. Moving closer to the crackling mopane fire, roasting the front of my legs while the cold air seeps through fleece jackets and shivering uncontrollably when a hyena calls in the distance, and not from the breeze. I think of days on buffalo or elephant tracks, the mid-day heat bearing down, the trackers working hard to follow a turned rock here and there as we focus on hard scrabble soil, thirsty but not ready to stop, six hours past, but my goal just ahead, or not. I think of that moment before I pull the trigger on my quarry, the elation, the focus, the pressure... and after, the excitement starting to build as the buffalo hunches, then runs, then the funny feeling in the pit of your stomach and the metallic taste of your own saliva as you begin to question your shot placement. Ultimately, the wave of relief, pangs of regret and a surge of pride when at the buffalo's side. Ms. Burn's doesn't know this Africa. When the words "African hunting" are spoken, she sees something much different. Only she can say what that is... but for many who are against hunting, it is the pictures of grinning, leering hunters and animal corpses. Nothing more. So the chasm is wide my friends and trying to convince someone who has not seen and experienced Africa like we have is but a waste of time and effort as I have posted before. Tis sad, true. But we can never see eye-to-eye. On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Too bad she doesn't spend her time and effort in cleaning up the endangered species problems in the UK first. UK Endangered Species List UK's Endangered and Threatened Species Maybe then she would have some small smidgeon of credibility in trying help another county with it's issues. But typical if the "anti" crowd, she has such a small pathetic life, she has to insert herself in others lives to feel any self-worth. Joloburn = | |||
|
| one of us |
[quote]Unfortunately i do not believe that these things will happen voluntarily if at all which is why i would back a temporary lion hunting ban to force their hands if they want to hunt lion again. JO A temporary ban would become permanent. Your conditions for resuming hunting are unfortunately never going to happen. Show us a realistic solution to end corruption. Properly managed hunting, by whose standards? Once the anti hunters got thier foot in the door it would be practicaly imposible to close it. On the original subject, no censorship. Dave | |||
|
Moderator |
That was very well said!  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
|
| One of Us |
http://twitter.com/#!/JoLouBurn Jo Louise Burn @JoLouBurn Bradford, UK "Landlady and budding (hopefully) writer. addicted to speedway, a much underrated sport and a lover of wildlife." Agendas?.....
| |||
|
| One of Us |
I spent a few minutes looking over the twitter info and my IQ dropped 10 points... | |||
|
| One of Us |
Was a tweet i made on the 13th Spetember 2011, more than a month before i joined here and learnt anything from you (generic) the best you could do? | |||
|
| One of Us |
It just leads one question your motivation for coming to AR. It could cause one to suspect, for example, exactly what it is you are trying to "learn" here and what you will be doing with that information once you have it. ~ | |||
|
One of Us |
 | |||
|
| Moderator |
Those of you who choose to engage this and other anti-hunters in debate are wasting your time and bandwidth. They do not care about the economics of wildlife utilization where a 2% (or smaller) percentage of the wildlife pays for the continued existence of the other 98%. They do not care about the benefits to local communities, e.g., meat, employment, and suppression of poaching. They do not care about the science of wildlife management where wildlife populations are kept in balance with the carrying capacity of the environment. They do not care about the fact that wildlife populations continue to grow ONLY in those areas where hunting and sound conservation (not preservation) are practiced. Talking to them is like engaging our resident idiots in debate on the PF. You can do it, but really, what is the point? George  | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 4 5 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
..