I shot this warthog on a farm in the Ellisras area of Limpopo last week. It was a PMP local manufactured bullet from a .303 British 174 grains.

The pig was acutely angled away from me at the shot. The bullet entered behind the shoulder, went through the lung, through the heart and on into the jaw bone. The pig dropped on the spot and never took another step.

On inspection of the bullet it lost about 50% of its weight, but looking at the lead (pic 2)
it looks as if the bullet has actually been sheered off. What would cause a bullet to sheer in the animal. Maybe if it tumbled as it hit the jaw?

At what point in this warthog's death did the bullet fail? Sorry, couldn't help myself. No harm intended, just having a little fun.

Brian

quote:

Originally posted by Allout:
At what point in this warthog's death did the bullet fail? Sorry, couldn't help myself. No harm intended, just having a little fun.

Brian

I knew this was coming but dam not that quick

ghundwan,

Actually for a standard cup and core bullet the performance looks very good. I'd guess contact with the jaw caused the swipe on the lead.

Mark

PMP bullets are built just like Nosler Partitions, so this is its normal way of doing things sheding the front part of it

quote:

Originally posted by ghundwan:

quote:

Originally posted by Allout:
At what point in this warthog's death did the bullet fail? Sorry, couldn't help myself. No harm intended, just having a little fun.

Brian

I knew this was coming but dam not that quick

Right time, right place. Must be my lucky day. Thanks for taking it in the spirit in which it was meant and not getting all out of sorts. Nice hog by the way.

Brian

quote:

At what point in this warthog's death did the bullet fail?

The last time I said something like this, someone got real cranky.

Nice hog. Looks like the 303 sporter has been rebarreled?

For a 303 bullet it looks like perfection to me, similar to what is expected from a Nosler Partition, which are sure killers.

quote:

Originally posted by cazador2:
PMP bullets are built just like Nosler Partitions

This is news to me. Which PMP bullet model are you referring to??
- mike

Well, the bullet did not fail. It killed the animal, and retained 50% of its weight.

That is actually very good performance for a run-of-the-mill soft point. Which from past experience PMP ammo is.

I have seen a number of animals killed with PMP ammo, and what we recovered was only the jacket, as the lead cores disappeared.

I agree (as does that Warthog) that there was NO failure of this particular bullet.

However, one might consider a different type should hunting DG be a consideration.

Otherwise, nice Hog, and IMHO, very good bullet performance.


JW

Nice hog! I see no problem with the bullet performance. However, if you want a bullet to shed less, you might consider a bonded bullet. Did the lead core separate? It appears as if it could fall out of the jacket. Good hunting, David

looks ok to me. barnes would cure the problem you are talking about but I dont know if you can get em.

I can remember being in Chewore several years back. I made a nice long shot from one hill to another on a sable. The bull ran 20 yards and rolled another 30. Back at camp, I along with friend, were allready drinking when a new client came into camp. At about the same time as our introductions one of the helpers walked up and handed me the bullet they retrieved from the sable. The new client in camp immediately wanted to see the bullet. I shared and his words were, "Next time spend a little more money and spring for a better bullet and you'll get better performance". I can't remember my next words but it was tough getting along with him after that. Since then I have got to know that person better and he has loosened up a lot, but one day I will have to bring that one up again.

What the other guys said.

There now my neck won't hurt!

Nice Hog, "Dead is Dead"

What are you expecting from PMP AMO.

Seloushunter

IMHO, bullet failure is the failure of the bullet to do what it was intended to do: Kill what you are intending to kill. It appears that this bullet did just that, in conjunction with proper bullet placement by the hunter.

Your bullet turned or tumbled, most all bullets do this towards the last part of penetration and expansion, and sometimes this causes shearing as passes on a rib or ? IMO...I have seen this many times and being an old bullet digger I also have found that when bullet meet teeth or Ivory they tend to shear of cut.

Nice hawg...

Just a stone in the bush.
What percentage of a misile is recovered after it hits a building or a ship? but the job is done.

The only real problem I see, is that we were not hunting with you! Nicely done!

Hey, it worked, you got your game, enjoy your succes, and we wish we were hunting Africa!

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
The only real problem I see, is that we were not hunting with you! Nicely done!

I ain't a PH but hell, come along the more the merrier, it will cost you a hell of a lot less......

I have been out the office for a while and reading all the responses I think I have given PMP the short end of the stick !

This is the first time in about 10 years that I am using factory ammo and am used to better performance using my reloads - obviously because of the premium bullets.

I was curious to what would cause the bullet to sheer as it did I haven't seen it before.

Thanks for all the comments about the Pig.

quote:

Originally posted by L. David Keith:
Nice hog! I see no problem with the bullet performance. However, if you want a bullet to shed less, you might consider a bonded bullet. Did the lead core separate? It appears as if it could fall out of the jacket. Good hunting, David

No the core as seen in the photo was still solid in the jacket.

ghundwan, first off, very nice pig.

quote:

I ain't a PH but hell, come along the more the merrier, it will cost you a hell of a lot less......

This statement however really annoys me. I do not know you or what you do for a living, but I am sure that whatever you do, you will really appreciate it if some underqualified person offers some of your clientele to do your work for them at next to nothing. Please remember that some of us do make our sole income out of guiding foreign hunters, thus the "professional" in the title. Your statement makes us look like money hungry wolfs, and not professionals at what we do. Kind regards, Karl

ghundwan,

Good pig in a good area.
First of all I would expect no-more than what you got for your money from pmp. Luckily the 303 is not a fast caliber and you can take chances on weaker bullets but not sierra. They are even worse tried them once never again.

Then the comment that Karl made is very valid. In first place it will be illegal to hunt without a ph and outfitter and in second place you will not be able to export any trophies. The idea of being a ph always sounds nice but its damn hard work if you would like to go forward and get known as a good one.

It is like owning a restaurant people always think that would be a nice easy job but they dont know what happens behind the scenes for a succesfull one that is.

Lets not get to sensitive here guys and lets not get into that debate but there is some ripoff artists out there like we all know. but i don't think that was the intensions in this case. Some occupations we do for the money and some is for love what ever ticks your fancy

And the problem is? Instantly dead wart hog, well expanded bullet, sorry I just don't see the problem.

Karl S and Safari Hunt,

If my comment was offensive - sorry.

I don't intend becoming a PH, or taking clients hunting. It was a "tong in cheek" comment.

It is just amazing that in SA we pay in Rands for an animal what overseas guys pay in US$.

Example a impala cost R700 for a local, international guy would pay $700. And this excludes day fees.

For me it is a bargain, just glad I live in South Africa earn Rands and pay in Rands

quote:

Originally posted by ghundwan:
It is just amazing that in SA we pay in Rands for an animal what overseas guys pay in US$.

Example a impala cost R700 for a local, international guy would pay $700. And this excludes day fees.

That's not true, otherwise a nyala would cost roughly ZAR2500 and a blue wildebeest ZAR1000. Remember, in S.A you get quotes for "biltong" and "trophy" animals, overseas clients all hunt for trophy, not meat, that's why the prices are higher...
Regards,
Eugene.

Young_PH,

You are 100% correct in your statement. The table below is a comparison of SA Trophy prices and prices charged to International clients. Prices are from Safari-hunt and Karl S web site the SA prices are from Bonlati.co.za. Average is 150% higher than local prices.

Daily fees are about 1500% more but then locals don't make use of a PH and also are self catering.

So contrary to my previous assumption we are not ripping to international boys off.

Using a R $ of 7.4


Blesbuck R 850 $300.00 R 2,220.00 161%
Bluewildebeest R 2,500 $800.00 R 5,920.00 137%
Bushbuck R 2,000 $700.00 R 5,180.00 159%
Duiker R 350 $300.00 R 2,220.00 534%
Impala R 550 $350.00 R 2,590.00 371%
Kudu R 4,000 $1,400.00 R 10,360.00 159%
Red Hartbeest R 3,000 $900.00 R 6,660.00 122%
Reedbuck R 2,200 $600.00 R 4,440.00 102%
Waterbuck R 6,000 $2,200.00 R 16,280.00 171%
Warthog R 600 $300.00 R 2,220.00 270%
Zebra R 4,200 $1,000.00 R 7,400.00 76%
Eland  R 5,500 $1,750.00 R 12,950.00 135%

This is what the Bonlati website says: http://www.bonlati.co.za/Engels/english_frames.htm

quote:

"Rifle Hunting Prices 2007 Season
All prices are quoted in South African Rand
Contact us for Rowland Ward Trophy prices"

By the way, nice sportering job on the .303 and a nice pig!
Regards, Eugene

ghundwan,

What do you do for a living ?
Obviously you do it for free.
You obviously do not have to pay any vehicle costs, insurance and permit plus a lot more marketing cost.
You obviously have staff that work for free as well ?
Then we have to pay other concessiona daily fee as well even if we are paying a daily fee at the base camp, for every day we hunt there.
Then you obviously get your petrol for free as well.

On average we get charged what the game are going for at the game auctions and that is for trophy males. So the man who makes the money is the farm owner and he who has the camp.

But lets make a budget for a local hunter hunting trophies driving from Pretoria to Ellisras for you.
You are 2 hunters staying 3 nights at R300.00 per person.
R1800.00 Daily rate in total.
280km to Ellisras and another 100km driving on farm so that is 280 km x 2 + 100 = 660km and you are driving a hilux 4x4 @ R3.40 per km so that will be 3.4 x 660km for petrol and vehicle cost.
R2240.00 for Vehicle cost.
You have to eat some food so lets budget for R150 per person per day including drinks alcoholic as well.
R900.00

Suddenly you are sitting at R4940.00 with out an ph, staff, skinners (that can cape), laundry service, waiters and cook and you havent even fired one round into any animal.
That is roughly $668.00 US at your 7.4 rate so even for locals unless you have a decent pay that is expensive.

So who is ripping who off, us or the land owners ?????
BTW will Bonlati let me hunt with foreign clients at those prices ? If so I will go and check them out.

quote:

Originally posted by ghundwan:



So contrary to my previous assumption we are not ripping to international boys off.

Safari-Hunt,

Which part of the above statement did you not understand????????

Volgens my kennis praat jy nie oor duime en rande met oorsese jagters nie. maar ja alles kos geld en ons moet die voordeel van ons natuurlike hulpbronne ook kry.

safari op langplaas skiet jy koedoes verniet ha ha die probleem is net die kamp.

het jy dalk buffels beskikbaar teen bilike pryse ?