I've gotta say, we never had a single person say they were unhappy with our terms of business in all the years we operated but of course, we'll never know how many chose to book elsewhere & with companies that had more lax terms of business but at least we never got ripped off.

The closest we came to getting burned was when I did a short notice freelance hunt in Tanzania (in about 2003 or 4) to help an acquaintance/outfitter out of a hole & I had to wait over a year before he paid me.

With friends like that Bro, who needs enemies!

I, on the other hand was once paid with a post-dated cheque that bounced when deposited 3 months later.
It didn't take long to resolve the matter amicably and receive the full amount in cash though.

Yup...... and after I baled him out of trouble by doing a short notice hunt that he'd otherwise have had to cancel but there ya go....... no accounting for some folk I guess......... and hey. At least he paid me in the end!

I have to say, I knew I'd get paid eventually and it wasn't a problem for me to wait for payment because it was just one safari.

Good topic

On Plains game hunts i only take a small deposit to secure your spot in the diary. When the client arrive he can pay the rest of the accomodation, which leaves you ( the outfitter )with money to pay any concession owners should it be necassary.Should the client not prefer to travel with lots of money he can pay all of the accomodation prior to leaving for his safari. The Trophy fees are payable on the last day of the hunt.

I know on DG there is usualy bigger deposits required to secure tags and permits.

I reccon it all comes down to good comunication between the outfitter an the client to best suite both parties needs.

Best Regards

There are as many different payment scenarios as there are outfitters. These are business arrangements that are made on a case by case basis. Zimbabwe ha had some trouble in the past 14 years, so I have made more accommodations for hunts there than all other countries combined.

While we are on the subject, most Tanzania operations now require that a trophy fee deposit be paid before the hunt commences. Since they have to pay the gov trophy fees within a short amount of time after the hunt. $7000 to $30,000 depending on the hunt.

Never have I heard of a big safari not requiring some money before the hunt commences. But, I am sure it happens in very special circumstances.

quote:

While we are on the subject, most Tanzania operations now require that a trophy fee deposit be paid before the hunt commences. Since they have to pay the gov trophy fees within a short amount of time after the hunt. $7000 to $30,000 depending on the hunt.

Wendell:

This new trophy fee deposit requirement was instigated by the Game Department to safeguard its interests against embezzlement by dodgy operators.

Its always a handful that spoil the party !

When I hunt with someone I don't know, it's nice to have the money in an escrow account in the States.

Lately, I've hunted with folks I've hunted with in the past and trust. We deal with wire transfers and its hard to keep up with who owes who at the moment. I'll owe them eventually, so we work it out.

quote:

Originally posted by txsouthpaw:
Thanks, Jim. Diane & I are less than 90 days away from Royal Kafue and the excitement is building!

The pleasure will be all mine mate.

I usually insist that the majority of the high cost trophy fees are to be paid up front and being 100% on those species I worry not. However I also offer a refund on all deposits so no worries there.

As a small operator I work from hand to mouth so advanced payments are important to my cash flow.

I have made three safaris in Africa, all with the same outfit. I went to DSC in 2007 knowing nothing and no one other than my intention to hunt Africa and a rough idea of the animals I wanted. Made my first round of the show speaking with numerous outfitters/hunters. Made a list as I went that comprised roughly 12 that pequed my interest enough to revisit. 1st was busy so I moved on. 2nd I pent an hour with and realized he was not for me. 3rd I was very comfortable spent an initial 1 1/2 hr. Went on and spoke with a couple more but knew # 3 was who I was going to book with. Went back to #3 and had him put a proposal together for me and the rest is history.

Perhaps I was just luck but I have to say I have always been a good judge of character. Within 2 weeks I wired the deposit, 6 weeks before I departed the remaining half which consisted of day rates + buffalo trophy fee scheduled for 2008. I brought travelers checks for other animals, tips, etc. Went back to DSC 2008 before my first hunt to meet with Ph again face to face and go over details. By the end of the first safari I had re booked for the following year. With out going into details our relation ship was such that we had absolute trust that neither would abuse the other with improper business practices.

Subsequently our dealings have been handled on personal basis as trustworthy gentlemen. And that is the crux of the matter. To few people are true gentlemen who's word is their bond. It's one of the main reasons humanity is in the shape it's in.

As to this small time operator, cash flow, need all the money up front business model. If you can't afford to be in business, you need not to be in business. I am and have been for 20 years. I don't and can't demand money up front. It takes me minimum of 30 days to get paid for labor & material that I have paid for well before I receive payment. Some instances it's well over 90 days. It's called planing and business management. Risk/reward, you have to risk capital to get returns. It all depends on you risk tolerance and you ability to asses the situation (person).

quote:

As to this small time operator, cash flow, need all the money up front business model. If you can't afford to be in business, you need not to be in business.

What an ignorant thing to say. Operators like Andrew that risk all to go and preserve a peice of wilderness are exactly what we need more of. Good honest men who are willing to go the extra mile. Not fat cats that sit on their high horse looking down their noses at the little guys.

Just our of interest how long have you been an outfitter in Africa, and how many hectares of wilderness are you personally responsible for the survival of.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:

quote:

As to this small time operator, cash flow, need all the money up front business model. If you can't afford to be in business, you need not to be in business.

What an ignorant thing to say. Operators like Andrew that risk all to go and preserve a peice of wilderness are exactly what we need more of. Good honest men who are willing to go the extra mile. Not fat cats that sit on their high horse looking down their noses at the little guys.

Just our of interest how long have you been an outfitter in Africa, and how many hectares of wilderness are you personally responsible for the survival of.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:

quote:

As to this small time operator, cash flow, need all the money up front business model. If you can't afford to be in business, you need not to be in business.

What an ignorant thing to say. Operators like Andrew that risk all to go and preserve a peice of wilderness are exactly what we need more of. Good honest men who are willing to go the extra mile. Not fat cats that sit on their high horse looking down their noses at the little guys.

Just our of interest how long have you been an outfitter in Africa, and how many hectares of wilderness are you personally responsible for the survival of.

Well spoken!

I think some people make a comment which seems out of focus because of their lack of understanding how things work in Africa.

Businesses in cities tend to work more on credit rather than on payment on advance - and sadly, the system is getting worse and worse.

An outfitter in Africa has to pay all his government dues - except trophy fees, up front. And I think it is unfair to expect them to do this without guarantees that they will get paid by some client coming from half across the world.

Again, 99% of both clients and PHs are honest and have no intention of cheating anyone.

That 1%, however, who ruin it for all of us.

I wish we were all open about our dealings, and their results.

But, in reality people tend to see what will be best for their interests.

There are lot more controversies happening out there that we do not hear about.

+2

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I think some people make a comment which seems out of focus because of their lack of understanding how things work in Africa.

Businesses in cities tend to work more on credit rather than on payment on advance - and sadly, the system is getting worse and worse.

An outfitter in Africa has to pay all his government dues - except trophy fees, up front. And I think it is unfair to expect them to do this without guarantees that they will get paid by some client coming from half across the world.

Again, 99% of both clients and PHs are honest and have no intention of cheating anyone.

That 1%, however, who ruin it for all of us.

I wish we were all open about our dealings, and their results.

But, in reality people tend to see what will be best for their interests.

There are lot more controversies happening out there that we do not hear about.

Actually Saeed I think you make a good point that applies globally, not just Africa. Most hunters really do not understand how things work where they go hunting whether it is in Africa, North America or Australia……….. never mind breaking it down by country or state or province.

Many operators have huge outlays in cash and operating expenses prior to anyone setting foot in the hunting area……….. allocations, quotas, concessions/outfitting areas, equipment, staff.

I always find it interesting because many hunters, who are business men in real life, expect operators to take risks and absorb potential losses that they would never consider in their walk of life.

One thing I have learned in some 30+ plus years in the business is that hunters will leave you hanging high and dry if you do not follow a particular practice and use contracts stipulating when things are paid and when they are or are not refundable.

As to the what ifs………… in all things there are risks. People die, laws change, weather, acts of god, war and just human nature…… for better or worse……….. can affect things. Do your home work and buy travel insurance.

Not trying to deliberately hurt any ones feelings but business dealings generally follow certain structures.

It also seems disingenuous and a distinction with out a difference pointing out all the capital outlay, restrictions, regulations,etc.for safari outfitters vs conventional business models. Does not the outlay for land, buildings, equipment, machinery, insurance, vehicles, license fees, employees, etc. with out any guarantees from anyone merit consideration. I was merely pointing out one must be prepared to do business with more than just an idea and perhaps a little experience.

But no one made mention of the primary point about all parties involved being gentlemen of trust.

Ignorance is not a sin, we are all ignorant of many things, and can be corrected with education.

If working since I am 12 years old educating, and applying myself to the point where I could start my own business at 40 and make a success of it makes me a fat cat then so be it. There is certainly no condescension from me for anyone trying to do the same in any field. I sincerely wish them all the best and hope they realize their dreams.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:

Many operators have huge outlays in cash and operating expenses prior to anyone setting foot in the hunting area……….. allocations, quotas, concessions/outfitting areas, equipment, staff.

I always find it interesting because many hunters, who are business men in real life, expect operators to take risks and absorb potential losses that they would never consider in their walk of life.

This is a very valid point. I am talking about RSA only, in other countries it can be more costly. Just to get the equipment to register as outfitter can easily put you back a R1,000,000-00 or about $100,000-00. This only covers vehicles, equipment on the vehicle, hunting gear, rifles, backup equipment. This excludes advertising, shows etc. Maintenance is another costly thing. Hunting vehicles are abused in the bush, they work much harder than the average vehicle. Equipment must be constantly upgraded or replaced. If you neglect the maintenance it will definitely bite you in the arse when you east expect it, usually while hunting with a client in the worst possible place.

Outfitters and ph's have a huge capital outlay to start off. There are talks in RSA of a ph course that will conform to certain minimum standard, something like a diploma. It is a 18 month course covering a lot of subjects, the cost roughly R75000-00 ($7500-00) At this stage it is not compulsory.

Before we take the decision to start our own hunting company we have a huge capital layout and certain hunters expect from you to make the bookings on his behalf, pay the deposits on his behalf without paying a deposit. a Safari business is not like a retail outlet where you buy stock to display and clients walk in to buy it, you have a constant turnover. In many cases we must book a concession a year or two in advance and pay the deposits, if I have to do that without receiving a deposit it ties u a lot of my personal capital, any client expecting that from a outfitter is not worth to have as a client.

I have done short notice hunts without receiving a deposit it usually works out, but I did got burnt once, guess what I do not do it anymore. What's the saying "Once bitten twice shy"

The world is full of people who don't pay their bills. We have seen it many times on AR, and in one famous case, many of you defended the act.

Just sayin'...

Yup Many sharks swimming the Great Barrier Reef.......................

JK Hunter

I almost fell of my chair laughing...

Most of my clients pay me deposits for the listed price of their hunt, usually in several payments over time (which my outfitters are not only happy with, but offer clients that option). I often times keep a client(s) "extra funds" in escrow here in the US in my account. I advise the PH/Outfitter this in advance. Once their hunt is complete, the PH and client advise me at which time I wire the balance to the PH's account. Any leftover funds are sent to my client(s) right away or at his direction, elsewhere such as the shipper/importer or Taxidermist. Some leave leftover funds to the PH/Outfitter as a returning deposit. At no time have I ever kept all funds until the hunt was over. If I had such suspicions towards a PH or client, I wouldn't be their agent.

Saeed,
Jim Carmichel wondered if you received his emails?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
The world is full of people who don't pay their bills. We have seen it many times on AR, and in one famous case, many of you defended the act.

Just sayin'...

You nailed that one. In my case very recently, I wired all of the anticipated fees to my safari operator so he would have full payment in hand by the time I showed up, with the understanding that if I failed to shoot "animal x" I would get a refund, and if I added animals I'd happily pay extra. I wanted to give the outfitter the feeling of confidence that he was dealing with a man of character, not some loser who doesn't pay his bills.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Saeed,
Jim Carmichel wondered if you received his emails?

please tell him I will check.

Have been travelling quite a bit, and only checking the emails from the last few days after I return, due to lack of time.

Currently have 37,218 unread message according to my mail program!!

May be I should explain that I do not use the Internet for any business purpose at all - all that we do either face to face or by phone.

Hence my lack of dedication to check in several times a day as some of my friends do.

Thanks for passing on the message.

quote:

Originally posted by MMS:


As to this small time operator, cash flow, need all the money up front business model. If you can't afford to be in business, you need not to be in business.

Glad he was!! Worked for Joyce and me.

Proof

37,000+ unread messages?? Saeed, you have WAY too many friends!