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| Administrator |
Gentlemen, I am getting some questions which I am unable to answer. It is regarding clients saying that they pay their booking agents, and ask him to keep the money in an account in the US until after the hunt. My understanding is that one has to pay for the hunt before the hunt commences, so how does work? | ||
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Saeed It varies from agent to agent, safari company to safari company & client to client but FWIW, we, like most safari companies always required a 50% deposit of the daily rate to confirm the booking, the remaining 50% at a set date (in our case, 90 days before) before the commencement of the hunt & payment of all outstanding trophy fees etc before the client departs camp. - with absolutely no exceptions. Perhaps unusually, we rarely used an agent and in retrospect, whenever we did, they were a PITA & more trouble than they worth. It should also be noted that some African countries require by law that all Govt fees etc be paid before the client leaves the country. We did have an occasional flaky bastard try various excuses to avoid that but none that managed it. We also always had a written safari contract that stipulated every cent of cost etc. | |||
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Saeed, All the operators I work with want the daily fees, government fees and charters paid before the hunt starts. I do hold a trophy fee deposit until I know what animals have been taken at safari's end. If they have over shot we bill the hunter and if they have a balance left we reimburse them. I then send the money to the operator. This seems very fair to me and I've only had one hunter not accept this system. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Steve, Mark, Thank you for your answers. This is exactly how I understood it too. But, I think we seem to have some people think their money is kept in escrow account until after the hunt is over. This is not possible, except may be if one hunts on a farm. As you both mentioned, this not possible with hunts in countries like Zimbabwe and Tanzania. | |||
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I don't understand why anyone would think it acceptable for money to be withheld whilst the product is delivered. You have to pay for an airline ticket before you travel, you have to pay a supermarket before you walk out with the shopping and you have to pay for your meal(s) before you leave a restaurant so why should it be any different with a safari? | |||
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I also work on a 50% deposit on the day fees with the balance payable at least 60 days before the start of the safari. I do not take any deposits for trophies, but all trophy fees must be paid in full before I take the client to the airport, I prefer that the monies are paid on the concession and I can then pay the concession owner before we leave. I prefer not to accept travellers cheques, but will take the client to the bank to cash his travellers cheques. I do make use of agents and never did an agent insist in holding back any monies, if he wants to withhold monies I will not use him as an agent. When a client do buy a package monies for trophies are paid to me, I issue the client with an invoice stating the package prices, I am flexible with packages in that if the client decides not to shoot all the animals included in the package the value of the package trophies not taken are deducted from the total bill at the end. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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Gentlemen, I think this came about because some booking agents claim to keep all the money Stateside until after the hunt. As we see, this is a load of rubbish. | |||
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Saeed, I can't say conclusively that no agents hold daily fees. However if I book someone 2 years out it seems unreasonable to me that the operator would receive no money until the safari was completed. What happens if the agent goes bankrupt, dies or a myriad of other things happen? The operator might never receive any money for the safari at all. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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This points brings up another question. What happens if the operator "goes bankrupt, dies or myriad other thinks happen"? 50% already has been paid with virtually no recourse. Do agents provide bonding service or would the onus of taking out trip insurance (don't even know if this is covered) be on the client? | |||
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Equally, what happens if the client or the agent croaks? The answer in all cases is to have a detailed safari contract with a proper cancellation policy etc........ although trip insurance is always money well spent as well. | |||
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Tanks My contract specifically says that MEA highly recommends trip insurance. Shit happens that nobody can predict. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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I've paid the booking agent for everything except trophy fees with the understanding that money would be forwarded in a timely fashion to the outfitter/PH. I also gave an amount of money that would cover all trophy fees of animals anticipated to die during the hunt to the booking agent to hold until the hunt was completed. The booking agent would then forward those funds to the PH at completion of the hunt. Essentially as already outlined by Mark. That way I do not have to travel with a huge sum of money in order to pay the trophy fees before leaving Africa. Things were slightly different with Andrew, but that was dictated by circumstances and the outcome essentially ended the same with Booking agent being paid his commission, Andrew getting some needed revenue up front, including a good chunk of the anticipated trophy fees. I still ended up owing him money at the end thanks to a dead Lion. A wire transfer on return to the States handled that. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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And I'm sure you were all smiles to get to send that wire to Andrew once you got back home. That incredible lion was literally "icing on the cake". Were you able to handle the Lusaka dip & pack payment after you got back, also? | |||
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I for one dont think more then 50% of day fees should be paid upfront.As a client it is not my job to fund his outfit to do the job he is hired to do.I wish I could bill people that far ahead with my work and get paid right at the end of a job.I dont want to hear that have to pay this and that to try and justify giving more.Why should the client take all the risk and need to pay for ins to cover there butt.How about the people offering the service taking some of the risk also.Buying certain things you know your paying for them right away.Getting a service you dont pay for till after getting the service. | |||
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I had to think about that. Yes as I recall I sent Mike Borman his money after I got back. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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So how many African hunts have you been on so far that you didn't have to pay for until you got back? I suspect you will be waiting a LONG time before you can find that arrangement. It is what it is. Do your research ahead of time on the outfitter/PH, area, time of year for species, and you should then be confident enough to do what the industry is used to.... being paid up front. It's the ones that buy hunts at auctions and shows without research, listening to a friend that knew someone who hunted "there", or the proverbial low bid that get's screwed. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Thanks, Jim. Diane & I are less than 90 days away from Royal Kafue and the excitement is building! | |||
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There are several reasons why any sensible operator will require full payment before the client departs not least amongst them are: The client might die before he makes payment..... possibly before he even makes it home. The client might turn out to be dishonest & can just refuse to pay or do a bunk. The client might get home to find his business has gone bust or his wife or business partner has done a bunk & taken all the money. The agent might die or just steal the money he's holding. The agent might go bust or have his assets seized. All of those scenarios have happened to people I know in the industry. Hell, you can't even trust the banks nowadays! | |||
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bcap, I may be wrong but I think you'll find it hard to find a top drawer outfit that will let you come and hunt having only paid 50%. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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I envy you!! You will have a great time. Be sure you get a wee bit of spirits into Mr. Baldry and have him tell you the Elephant Croc story in animated detail. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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I have been on two so far going back for 2 more this aug.I have never paid over a 1000.00 deposit and had great hunts.Had balance owned at end also that I sent when I got home.It was agreed before I took more then I could pay for though.Just owed a 1000.00 dollars worth of trophy fees i sent when I got back.They were not some hight dollar lion hunt just SA plains game which I know to must of you are not real hunt but what I can afford. | |||
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And what is his preferred prescription & we will surely get that story out of him... | |||
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To me there are several reason not to pay more up front. Outfitters dies or goes out of business outfitter has problems things change and hunt maybe not all that was promised before hand Quote gets overbooked and animals on list not being able to be hunted. So many things can happen and client should not be at risk. hard to get money back once paid. I do practice what I preach though.I never get all the money must would think I should before starting a remodeling job.I wait for the client to be happy and then bill them and get my money in about a week. I have done plenty of guided hunts in the states and do it the same way.Never paid a 50% deposit before getting there.I have hunted with plenty of great outfits also. | |||
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When I booked through Jack Atcheson and sons I kept an escrow account and released the trophy fee money upon my return stateside. I trusted them and they trusted me. The day rates were paid before the safari started and tips were paid in cash at the conclusion in Africa. I didn't like carrying large sums of cash whilst in Africa, in camp or traveling. It was one of the reasons I used their service. | |||
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If all outfitters were as ethical and dependable as Steve, we would not need to address this issue. Some are not. I have used an agent twice to hold funds until I have released them. The deposit was sent at booking and the remainder of the daily rate was held till I directed. Once I used email and once a sat phone. I paid the trophy in cash upon departure in one case like normal and once had the agent transfer funds at the conclusion like Frostbit mentioned to preclude carrying cash to a bad place. Only did this with new outfitters with little history. Tom ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, duke of York ". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero - 55 BC "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand Cogito ergo venor- KPete “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.” ― Adam Smith - “Wealth of Nations” | |||
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He's an eclectic imbiber.  ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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I think Mr. Baldry prefers whatever is in his fist at the present time. That is not a insult. I promise.  MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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I need the spewing coffee out my nose emoticon. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Another reason to book with a reputable agent, outfitter or PH. And I might add that YOU, as the client, have to be honest too. I bet there have been just as many crooked clients as there were PHs. I have been going to Africa since 1982. On that hunt I paid Klinebergers everything except the trophy fees. Which I paid with travelers checks at the end of the hunt. Ever since, I pay everything all the anticipated costs ahead of time, and make adjustments either at the end of the hunt, or as soon as I get home. Never had a problem, and I see no problem with this arrangement. So it seems "I am holding your money in escrow account until after your hunt" is not correct at all. | |||
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During the peak of the nonsense in Zim, Atcheson's held my monies in the US and then I emailed them to release the funds at the conclusion of the hunt. But the above is based on trust also. The PH/Outfitter trust the Atcheson's actually does have the money in an account and that they will release the funds. Clients have legitimate concerns about large deposits being held in politically unstable countries. All of these reasons that Shakari brings up as to why payment is required before you leave are the same reasons why clients don't want to put a 50% deposit down a year in advance: 1) PH/Outfitter dies before the hunt 2) PH/Outfitter looses concession because of politics 3) PH/Outfitter's bank goes under 4) Government closes down hunting 5) US government closes down imports In any of the above scenarios, the PH/Outfitter may have already spent the funds. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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If you are not dealing with reputable folks, don't go. Having said that, I have been surprised how one sided the terms of business are in the hunting industry. So it's my responsibility to get insurance (which I suspect will not pay off most of the time, at least that's what I found before my first Tanzania hunt) but not the outfit's for client nonperformance? So I have to sign away every right known to law on a booking sheet, but if there is no quota, I don't find out until I am there, and there is no compensation for it... Prices subject to increase at whim, despite a contract? Yes, I know it is the way it is, and I have not had an incident where everything was not taken care of to my satisfaction over there. I understand the economics enough to understand why some portion of the daily rates may have to be paid in advance, but come on, how many PH's get paid by the outfitter when you arrive in camp? Don't the staff get paid at the end of the year? And unless you are hunting on a game farm, isn't the concession rights money part of the start up cost of running a hunting enterprise (as is the fuel, camp, etc.) I would also be willing to bet that most trophy fees are pretty heavily marked up, so this business of "the government fees need to be paid before the client leaves" doesn't justify having to have a large amount of cash to cover the whole TF bill sent early. On the other hand, I suspect there is a heck of a lot more unscrupulous behavior done by clients than outfits. | |||
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Wow!! Very interesting comments lads!! I have been hunting every year with Thierry Labbat and Zambezi hunters (Zimbabwe) for the past for years. And I have 2015 and 2016 booked. However, on the first hunt, daily fees were paid up in advance, and perhaps the anticipated trophy fees may have been paid, that I truly cannot remember. Ever since the first hunt, I pay about 50% of the daily rate for deposit, and that's it! I get a bill about a month or two after I return, for the balance.. Maybe I have it good? Sounds like it!! But... I cannot say enough about how professional these guys are as well...!! And I am comfortable, trusting, and I know, as other guys that have the chance to hunt with Thierry know, that no matter what, things are done proper!! | |||
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Here you have situation where both client and PH trust each other, and that is how it should be. If this was the case every time, this subject would not be under discussion. | |||
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My first safari - i booked with save safari on a single reference at dsc and gave a 5k deposit. Went and hunted and was given a bill at the end. I came back and wired the money. My guess is over the course of the safari both of us found out enough about each other to know each was good at their word and we would be hunting together again. Second trip i just wired the money for everything upfront and was given a refund back in zim. I for one don't like traveling with large sums of money. US citizen you have to report anything over 10k. The airport security people know you are traveling with a stack of bills - its shows up on the security machine. I don't want to transit in africa with lots of currency either or worry about my cash in camp. Going forward i either wire the money upfront or settle after i get back. I rather use ar and ar member personal knowledge/references to sort outfitters who are trustworthy upfront to receive the money. Hell, if i don't trust them with money how can i trust them with providing me with professional services - safe food water, professional ph services, safe transport. Mike | |||
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After getting burned we now have standard policy that goes as follows 50% of day rate on booking 50% of day rate 10 days before the hunt starts 100% of expected trophy fees 10 days before the hunt starts While the 100% of tropht fees before the hunt may loose us some good clients, it is definately going to loose us the scum that you never hear from the minute they step out your car. Repeat clients may have terms adjusted if we trust them, but there is no way I am carrying the buck for some guy who decides to have a free hunt. Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I operate pretty much like Steve and Box H. Last year for the first time I relaxed this rule with a client and got burned. It took 8 months to get the money from the agent and the client, even then he did not submit the full payment at the end and despite promises and my misgivings I still released/shipped his trophies including a big leopard and now I don't get responses from the client anymore, and the agent has walked away from it. Harris Safaris PO Box 853 Gillitts RSA 3603 www.southernafricansafaris.co.za https://www.facebook.com/pages...=aymt_homepage_panel "There is something about safari life that makes you forget all your sorrows and feel as if you had drunk half a bottle of champagne." - Karen Blixen, | |||
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The unfortunate thing is the operators nowadays have to set their terms of business according to the lowest common denominator. It isn't the 99.9% of clients (or agents) who are honest that are the problem, it's the 0.1% that are going to screw you over or be willing but unable to pay (for whatever reason) that have to dictate the rules and quite honestly, those operators that don't set such terms of business are going to get burned sooner or later. Going off topic for a moment, there are other problems that can occasionally occur as well....... I've got a friend who's also a PH and over the years, he's had 3 separate occasions where the client has died on safari and that causes no end of problems........ and I've been told of at least one occasion (many years ago) where a PH (now deceased) has had a client die on safari and smuggled the body over a border to make things easier for the family and himself.  | |||
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In my (limited) experience, I would say that if you feel the need to withhold monies from the safari company then you obviously have doubts about their ability to perform. I have felt that need in the past and no longer work with those people as they failed to deliver a product satisfactory to me. Most of the time the client doesn't even realise a problem as I would have to go out and hire vehicles or buy stuff that was required. Not anymore. If I don't have faith in the operator I take my clients elsewhere. K | |||
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I would guess there is as many bad clients maybe even more.But putting everything on the clients shoulders money wise is just wrong. I would never pay trophy fees upfront even if I hunted with someone more then once. I would never think to ask for my trophys to be sent before everything was payed.That would not be fair to the outfitter. I found if your upfront and honest you can work out most issues about payments.Dont know if there is a perfect way to handle it other then what both partys can decided on together that has both partys happy.Neither side should have all the risk on there shoulders. | |||
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Sometimes it can be worth it to pay all the fees including the trophy fees upfront. I have 2 clients that is arriving in a couple of days, they bought a donated package, but could not make it last year, I made a deal with the owner to pay him last year and keep the same prices for this year. The clients were happy with it and they save a lot of monies on the day fees and the trophies. It is all about being open with each other and try to get the best deal for the hunting client and the outfit. Only once I had an experience that left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth but everything got sorted out amicable. It had nothing to do with the hunting trip. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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