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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Optimal Velocity...Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Hello fellow AR members, I was wondering what kind of velocity window was required to penetrate a cape buffalo lengthwise with a 300gr .375 Cal Barnes TSX or any similar bullet. I know that these bullets will exit on side shots but what about a "Texas heart shot"? I never hunted in Africa and only dream of doing so one day... I am only interested in that bullet, caliber combo since I own one. Lets hear what the experts have to say since I'm only interested in real life experiences. Best Regards, Maurice | ||
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Run it as fast as your rifle safely allows. | |||
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You should not count on any "soft point" such as the TSX for Portuguese or Texas Heart Shots on buffalo. If you must, then it ought to be as Gerard says, the faster the better, in hopes of blowing the petals off and converting the soft to a solid of approximately cylindrical shape. I can tell you that Gerard's FN solid will fully penetrate one-ton buffalo (cape, water or bison varieties), entering from any compass heading and exiting on the same straight line out the other side, with impact velocities of 2400 to 2500 fps. | |||
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I seem to remember a post on this board of a test done on Northfork Solids. The higher the velocity the better, but only to a point then they started to lose penetration. I'd post the link to that post here but I can't seem to find it. Hopefully the originator can drag it up. I believe 500grains was the poster but I'm not sure. | |||
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BigGuy The moral to that story is to use GS Custom FN solids instead of North Fork solids. DR B | |||
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Greater than 2.47 furlongs per fortnight.  ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I do not remember that one but I do remember this post from this thread:
[Emphasis added.] ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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Thanks for all the replies folks. Very informative!!! Maurice | |||
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Charles-Helm, very interesting quote. I had assumed that penetration of cup point solids was a function of velocity up to the point where the tip began to expand, and would then decrease as expansion increased. I realize the expansion is designed to be limited, but the results of the tests mentioned makes me do some rethinking. I still can not get it that slower undeformed solids might penetrate more than faster undeformed solids. Once deformation reaches maximum frontal surface area without fragmentation, then I can see that more speed means more penetration. Help! Steve "He wins the most, who honour saves. Success is not the test." Ryan "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Stalin Tanzania 06 Argentina08 Argentina Australia06 Argentina 07 Namibia Arnhemland10 Belize2011 Moz04 Moz 09 | |||
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The message is that North Fork FP's are just as good as GSC FN's. I do believe that enough field reports have come in to answer any of the early questions about that! | |||
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You got that right!  Even my Iron Buffalo proves you correct. | |||
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I just realized the quote above was indicating that CPS were increaing in FSA as speed went form say 1800 to 2200, and reached its maximum at 2200, with the increasing FSA causing significant deceleration increase. Now I get the idea. Just mentally slower than normal tonite. Steve "He wins the most, who honour saves. Success is not the test." Ryan "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Stalin Tanzania 06 Argentina08 Argentina Australia06 Argentina 07 Namibia Arnhemland10 Belize2011 Moz04 Moz 09 | |||
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That phenomenon holds to all solids, the test in question just happened to be done with NF solids. The same tests were done by African Hunter magazine a few years ago with conventional solids, and the same effect was found at that time as well! In the case being asked here by the origenal poster,I don't think you will push a TSX through a Cape buffalo end to end at any speed! If I wanted to use the TSX it would be for the first shot only, followed by solids, and my pick would be a toss up between the North fork flts, and the GS Custom. IMO, there is no difference that can be diminstrated between them. The 2150-2550 fps is the window you want for best pennetration with a flat point solid, but in your 375H&H I'd send them down range at 2550fps muzzle velocity! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Enigma: For what it's worth to you, I shot a buff at between 30 and perhaps 35 yards with a 375, using a 300 gr. solid that hit him on the point of the shoulder. It was factory Federal ammo and it was 1993. (The buff is recorded in the SCI Record book, Africa, 9th Ed., p.89) I was a one time buff hunter so I defer to experts - but,frankly, I would be amazed to hear if there was any bullet that would traverse a buff "lengthwise". I was taught by my very good PH in a prep talk - " Break bones". What bullet you use to do that is your choice or what the pros on this website advise. | |||
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We have found that our own Walterhog bullets penetrate best at a velocity of around 2700 fps.   This bull was shot in his rear end, and the bullet was found under the skin on the opposite side on his neck. | |||
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Thanks, Saeed. Your Walterhog .375/300gr at 2700 fps blows its nose off and becomes very much like a GSC FN or NF FP solid. It is deeper penetrating than an X, XLC, or TSX soft. I do know you experimented with hollowpoint structure initially, but I think it is still a major penetrator. I still have one of your original Walterhogs, and I sent one on to John of Bridger Bullets. He made some good copies of your bullet. Maybe Walterhogs by Bridger will eclipse Barnes TSX in sales one day.  I tried these three loads in the Iron Buffalo once upon a time, all GSC FN solids: .375/300gr at 2500 fps .375/300gr at 2700 fps .375/270gr at 2900 fps The 300 grainer penetrated the same distance at both 2500 fps and 2700 fps. The 270 grainer at 2900 fps was a clear cut loser in penetration depth. The faster the bullet, the higher it threw water and wood fragments from the first two compartments. After the excess velocity is bled off after entry, the penetration seems to be determined by sectional density. Yep, that old joker SD. The Iron Buffalo is a plywood and water penetration test medium, not real game, true, but it is uniform and repeatable, and that is impossible with any shot to shot comparison on live game or dead game. Now I will go look for the picture of the XLC's and FN's. .509/570 grainers all, at 2400 fps. The XLC's would not penetrate broadside, found under offside hide of shoulder. The FN's went in the rump and out the neck of nearly a ton of bison.   Two shots with each. Same results each time. The GSC FN's could still be in polar orbit, for all I know, but I recovered the XLC's. When the XLC's let their flaps down, it does make for some drag inside of the carcass.  PS: My beard is prematurely gray. I am only 39 years young and holding.  | |||
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Higher quality bullets do higher quality work at higher velocity. Much depends on the "qualities" of the bullet. There does come a point of diminishing returns. I think 2700 fps is that point in many situations, like Saeed's situation, for one. | |||
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After JJHack's revelations, I will henceforth carry a magazine full of FN or FP solids and save the TSX's for the first shot. The object is a one-shot kill with the soft, and shooting fast at any departing rear end if that happens. Hammering the TSX points in the box might harden them, by reducing the opening hole size of the hollow point, etc. Of course a North Fork soft nose or CUP point will not be degraded by magazine battering, and a CUP point might be adequate for the ass to heart path. Whether North Fork soft or TSX, any soft should not be counted on for Portuguese-Texan Heart Shots. They won't even exit routinely on broadside chest shot on animals as big as cape buffalo or bison. The CUP point is neither soft nor solid but closer to soft-solid, and a lot more solid than any round nose solid. | |||
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In Kevin "Doctari" Robertsons first book on hunting the southern buffalo he mentioned that most 375's should be throtteled down to about 2400 f/s as the 375 H&H is the real penetration champ and over penetration is a real problem. I don't think he had access to these new bullet designs though. These are better. I love the Norfork and GS designs. square shooter | |||
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Doctari just had crummy bullets and had to slow them down to keep them from turning inside out and penetrating poorly, or just plain old falling apart. I believe he made a big deal out of claiming the twist related angular velocities were too hard on bullets. That is sure admission of a "too soft" bullet. North Fork softs work better at any velocity. Woodleigh softs work better on the lower end velocities. The non-nostalgic hunter uses faster twist and tougher bullets than the old rules dictate. Fast twist and velocities of 2400 to 2700 fps with an FN or FP solid of SD .3 is what is needed for the Portuguese-Texan Heart shot on buffalo. There is nothing magic about the .375 caliber regarding penetration. Anectdotes to that effect are merely artifactual: The .375 H&H had a standard twist of 12", velocity was good with usal impact speeds around 2400 fps or lower at hunting ranges with most factory ammo of 300 grains, and that 300 grain bullet had good stability due to not too long, not too short, with a .305 SD, just right, whether lead cored FMJ with Round Nose handicap or the slightly longer monometal with Flat Nose super compensator. Notice I did not say Flat Nose supercavitator. No .375 soft point was ever a superpenetrtor except the Walterhog. It is similar to the Cup Point. The Walterhog has a "Detachable Point" that converts it to a solid soon after entry. | |||
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