Folks: Thanks to the kindness of our friend jjs, I tested some 370gr Cup points today. What I found totally amazing was they shot to the same POI as my 400gr Swifts and my 410 Hornady solids when loaded the same (90.2gr IMR 4350).

I also fired some 400gr TSXs and those well well within "minute of anything" I'd want to kill with a 416 Rigby. This rifle, one of the first ten production ones from Ruger that sports a 24" barrel is simply incredible. Every bullet I've ever fired from it, from factory 410 Feds to all my handloads, fit into a nice 1.5" circle. A three shot group with any three yields easy .5" groups. I had Mark Penrod slick up the action and it feeds the NFs flawlessly. This one's a keeper.

But I digress. What I am looking for is specific experience with the cup point solids on elephant and buff.

What concerns me is the NF website recommends they be pushed upwards of 2500 fps and I am shooting about 2400-2425. So the question is, should I keep pushing for higher speeds or will 2400 afford me enough for elephant? Thanks, jorge

I used the cup point and flat nosed bullets in Zambia last year. My 404J was loaded to 2350 f/s and the 416 Taylor was at the same speed. The bullets whistled through cape buffalo and hippo. Why are you not using the flat nose solid for elephant? I am sure the cup point will work but the flat nose is a true solid.

I have no experience of NF bullets, but I think they will work @ your velocities as well. I think it is marketing hype/ BS that a bullet has to travel XYZ ft/sec, as they have no control over what distance you shoot. A bullet starting off at 100ft/sec faster, does not kill better than the slower bullet. Its like saying: "My gun kills wonderfull at 10 yards, but is useless at 100 yards."

In an e-mail correspondence with Mike last year he specifically mentioned that the cup-points are not designed for elephant.

LD

jorge,

In a phone conversation last year I remember Mike telling me he was not recommending the cup point for elephant nor the solid for brain shots on elephant. If I remember correctly he said that he was not sure a copper solid would work as well as a solid made of a harder metal.

Mark

ok, so I'm thick. Then what's the cup point for? some kind of TSX clone? I'm just trying to find a replacement for my dwindling supply of 410 Hornady solids (anybody out there have any to sell? I guess I shouldn't be too worried as my rifle shoots anything well. jorge

PS: just read Dog_G's post on bullets for buff and he anwered the question on the cup points. duh!

Let me start by saying that I have no experience with elephant bullets, but I have read a lot on these pages, so I will venture an opinion.

I think the NF cup point is designed to replace both solids and softs for game up to Cape Buffalo size when fired from a 400 or bigger. (And maybe from a 375 and bigger.)

Significantly, not many bullets have been recovered. From those that are found, there are several reports of 48" penetration from .400s at 2050 to 2400 fps, and our own 500 Grains has three recovered 470 cup points that travelled 54-58" inches in buffalo and giraffe when they entered the animal at 2200-2400 fps.

There is a lot of experience with the GS Custom FN that suggests that the NF FN will do well on elephant, but I would not bet my first elephant hunt on it. Mike is very conservative and probably is thinking the same thing. The GS Custom sometimes rivets a bit in high density bone - and the NF FN might also.

The nose is better supported (to prevent flow)on the original "ogive design" NF FN (which looks like an RFN or round flat nose to me), and I would look at that shape or true "round-nose solids" for the ultimate in penetration in bone.

The cup-point design is aimed at the ultimate combination of big wound channel and penetration in flesh with the occasional bone.

The FN is one step up the scale in penetration and down in wound channel from the CPS. But still the flat meplat is known to generate better wound channels in flesh than RN solids. There is speculation that this is due to cavitation in water-rich media.

The RN solid has for years been known to be the best shape for elephant heads. The alloy of choice for true monometal elephant bullets seems to be more "brass" than "copper", though.

HTH,

quote:

Let me start by saying that I have no experience with elephant bullets, but I have read a lot on these pages, so I will venture an opinion.

This attitude is the cause of 95% of the problems on AR and the Internet in general.

quote:

Originally posted by Don_G:
Let me start by saying that I have no experience with elephant bullets, but I have read a lot on these pages, so I will venture an opinion.


HTH,

Don, thanks for your post/opinion. I get lost at times w/ all the math and theories behind this stuff. I read thru your above post and it became clear like a light went on.

Thanks,
Gary

If you run out of the Hornady solids, there is nothing wrong with the great Woodleigh solids in .416........

Jorge,

I do not believe they are hard enough for elephant...Heart shot maybe...

Mike

Thanks for the input Mike, SO basically it's anotehr substitute for the Aframe or TSX. Hmmm decisions. Do I stick with my tried and true A Frames or male the switch? jorge

In a 416 Rigby that is used mainly for buffalo, my pick would be 350gr TSXs at 2550+fps. The cup points were made for guys that want two holes and a little bit of expansion. The TSXs do the same thing and are far more aerodynamic for longer shots. If I ever hunt elephant I have a good supply of original TB Sledgehammers that I know will take care of that.

quote:

Bwana1
one of us
Posted 27 February 2006 00:59
If you run out of the Hornady solids, there is nothing wrong with the great Woodleigh solids in .416........
Posts: 69 | Location: Florida | Registered: 03 July 2004

Please note that the Woodleigh are Steel Jacketed with guilding metal cover. A steady diet of steel on steel is not good.
Sincerely,

Has Barnes finally got out of the copper plating business with the TSX?

Every other Barnes bullet I have tried copper fouled like mad.

Well, I just fired 30rds through my 416 using the TSXs and there was virtually no copper fouling in the barrel. They are a world apart from the earlier designs and have proven to be extremely accurate in every gun I have tried them in.

Ditto to what John S said.

Geronimo

I have spoken to Mike at North Fork about what the cup-point solids were designed for.

He has a wealth of knowledge about terminal ballistics, and is willing to share that knowledge liberally.

He told me the cup points were designed for buffalo, or the equivalent (hippo for example).

They were meant for the shoulder shot, where both penetration AND expansion are called for.
This first shot is supposed to be your best placed bullet. The follow-up would be flat point solids after that, in case you were making those critical shots as the buffalo ran towards you.

I haven't shot anything with the cup points yet, but I intend on using them on buffalo this September.

Garrett

North fork cup nose solids that I recovered from game. I would have to check my notes, but as I recall I have gotten 4 to 5 or more feet penetration from them. The one on the right went into a giraffe at 100 yards.

IMO the cup point is a fabulous buffalo bullet.

Let me second Mark's comments.

I an earlier email Mike told me that the FN solids were not designed for elephant and he advised against such a use because he was worried that they would not hold up as well as the proven solids made of brass

Doug

If the NF solids aren't meant to be used on elephant, what other FP monometal solid is available that would be suitable?

quote:

Originally posted by dougaboy:
Let me second Mark's comments.

I an earlier email Mike told me that the FN solids were not designed for elephant and he advised against such a use because he was worried that they would not hold up as well as the proven solids made of brass

Doug

I think you guys have gotten a bit confused here.

The COPPER FN solids from both North Fork and GS Custom are designed for elephant and other heavy boned game.

The COPPER cup nose solids from North Fork are designed for buffalo and the like.

Dan, you are right. My post was meant to reference the CP solids. Sorry to all. My brain is fried from spending too much time reading the further sagas of SH and PVT.

Doug

jorge

The cup point solid is NOT an elephant bullet. It is intended to be used where you wish more penetration than soft points give, and more wounding capacity than pure solids give. I think I saw a post where ROSCOE used it on an elephant but he did it without my blessing or knowledge. I never got a report as to the result.

The CPS is best used on large bovine or others in that class; giraffe, eland, bison, water buff, cape buff, etc., at moderate ranges. Moderate meaning probably 150yds or under. The only reason for that is the cartridges that would use them will have their remaining velocity below the level that the cup will open (~1900-2000). Impacts below that will revert to acting just like the flat point solid (FPS), no expansion and more penetration.

Nowhere on the website do I mention preferred velocities for either of the solids. What you are referring to were comments about the soft points.

The point of minimum penetration of the CPS is at an impact of 2200fps. The penetration at that velocity is still much greater than any soft point, but that is the least penetrating impact speed. Both below that and above that, the penetration increases and pretty dramatically. Below 2200, the bullet has not reached it's maximum expansion so the drag is less and penetration is increased and, as I said before, below the speed of any expansion the CPS will act no different than the FPS. Above 2200 and the expansion has reached it's maximum (~1.4 diameters) and as energy (velocity) is inceased, the penetration is also increased. My stop tank, that was designed for soft points, will not even come close to stopping a FPS and it can only stop the CPS at that 2200fps. Any other speed, faster or slower, and the bullet penetrates the entire length of the tank and crashes into the steel back stop.

BTW, the FPSs will work at any velocity that you wish to use them at.

Mark

Just as Don said, I am VERY conservative (just ask him the hard time I gave him before I sold him some solids ). When you and I spoke, I stated that, AT THAT TIME, I could not state the FPSs reliability on frontal elephant brain shots. That is because I don't state something that I don't know for fact and at that time there was practically no track record. The only feedback was from 500 grains and he was using prototype 475s made from a material source other than my regular supplier and it was questionable as to it's hardness. THAT bullet did sustain more nose damage than I would wish. Since that time ANDY took FPSs from the current material to Africa last year with instructions to do his best to destroy them on elephant skulls (point blank at 450 Dakota speeds). He tried but was unsuccessful in doing them any damage. For more info either PM Andy or do a search for the thread on his hunt.

Mike

Shhhh, don't tell Tony that the FPSs won't work on elephant . The belly of that airliner will have a small pickup truck load of them loaded in 450NE#2. Anyway there will be a lot more info come April 1. Ooops, I mis-read your reply. You were referring to the CPS. Yes, they might work for elephant heart shots but IMO, there is no reason to even have them in the gun if elephant is the target. FPS only, is the best course.

N. Garrett

I'll be very interested in the results of your hunt with those lower sectional density bullets. When I tested them, I got the same result as when I did the ones with higher SD; FPS complete penetration and only stopping the CPS at 2200fps, AND at the same depth as the High SDs. Even so, I WOULD NOT recommend anything with that low of SD for elephant, no matter what. I was hoping to learn about the lower SD bullets when Judge took them over last year but, with the fiasco with his sights, nothing was learned.

Mike

jorge:

Now you heard it from the expert (Mike)...just order some of his Solids and you will be all set!

Mike, when you are ready for the dies, etc...just let me know...

jjs

Still no barrel. As it was a freebie, in trade for data, I have no grounds for a "hurry up" phone call.

When he asked me what contour I wanted, I said CONTOUR?, I want that thing to be a railroad axle . I'll leave the masicism to you guys that enjoy it.

are these bullets for sale in Canada?

Thanks Mike for comig online to give some Facts. I know a lot of members appreciate it.

Hey bulldog563,ofcourse we appreciate guntalk but the man is trying to sell us something.

Mike

Glad all your hard work paid off. I still have not got around to shooting the 458 bullets I got from you. What powder again did you recommend for the 450 gr. SP in the 458 WM? I stil think I owe you $5.00.

Mark

quote:

Please note that the Woodleigh are Steel Jacketed with guilding metal cover. A steady diet of steel on steel is not good.
Sincerely,

Says who? The old Hornadys also had steel jackets, covered with gilding metal, just like the Woodleighs. BTW, so did most of the old Kynoch solids, and they were fird trough older barrels made from weaker metals than today. The new "encapsulated" Hornady solids are no good for elephant, as they rivet. Stick to monometal solids (preferably FN) or steel jacketed solids for all solid needs while hunting.

If you were happy with your 416 Hornady solids you will be as happy and probably more so using 416 Woodleigh solids.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by dbltap:

quote:

Let me start by saying that I have no experience with elephant bullets, but I have read a lot on these pages, so I will venture an opinion.

This attitude is the cause of 95% of the problems on AR and the Internet in general.

But did he stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

Jorge,

Here is a picture of the North Fork FN and two TCCI RN I recovered from my elephant that Mike mentioned.



Velocity was 2500 fps for the 465 grain TCCI RN and 2550 FPS for the 450 grain North Fork FN.

The NF penetrated much farther than the slightly heavier TCCI. I do attribute that to the FN design as Mikes copper alloy is a tiny bit softer than the free machining brass TCCI uses.

The TCCI that expanded only penetrated 29 inches (into jaw), and the head shot through very heavy zygomatic arch 32-35 inches. The same bullet penetrated front to rear on body shot, including 21 inch thick rear leg. This is a picture of the blue necrotic area as it went through large intestine. Plenty of velocity to do that.



I shot three NF-FN into dead elephant in three different locations, and they all went through skull and into heart lungs. No way can a TCCI RN do that!



If you want to blow the front off the Cup Point for maximum penetration you would probably need in excess of 2,600 fps.



Pictured here are 450 grain .458 Barnes X, Tripple Shock and North Fork CUP POINT. The NF expands at lower velocity than Barnes and holds frontal area at higher velocity. I guess you could use it in an emergency for elephant but if a solid RN only goes 29-35 inches in some parts of the skull why would you want anything but the best bullet possible for penetration??? Its an elephant hunt.

Bottom line is the NF FN does not deform on elephant even at 2550 fps and a range of nine paces. Play around with the powder charge on your fovorite soft point until they regulate to same POI.

Good hunting! Andy

I see why Mike Brady now says his North Fork FP Solid is O.K. for elephant brain shots. Thank you Andy. One can do a frontal brain and heart and lungs with one shot, if one can only get the right angle for the shot. Next we'll be hearing about "Texas Brain Shots."

Wow, Andy, those are some interesting photos!

What's the story? How did the intestines have time to get necrotic? I'd heard that elephants start to rot overnight, did that happen after it was dead?
*********************************
Also, anybody that thinks Mike is a salesman has never tried to buy bullets from him!

Don: "I want to order $300 worth of bullets for my 416."

Mike: "Have you tried the new designs for feeding?"

Don: "No, but your old ones fed fine"

Mike: "Send me a check for $5 and I will mail you a sample pack. Try them out for feeding and let me know."

Don: (After a week) "OK, I made dummies, they feed fine, I want to order $300 worth of them."

Mike: "Why don't you shoot them first, your barrel might not like them."

Don: "!^%#$%%*$&*, send me some #%#$#^! bullets!"

Mike: "OK, but if they don't shoot well, send them back!"

I would bet that anybody that's tried to buy solids from him had exactly the same conversation.

If his product wasn't great he'd starve to death.

Gentlemen thank you all for a very informative primer on bullet selection for elephant. Mike, I will be calling you, possibly today, even though my elephant hunt is nowhere in the near future! jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Don_G:
Also, anybody that thinks Mike is a salesman has never tried to buy bullets from him!

I have found him to be very helpful and prepared to offer advice even when you are not trying to place an order.

Charles,

Mike is all you say he is. He is a great guy and a true enthusiast. He will help you any way he can, and - to me - that is the best "salesman" there is.

But I have been chafing him about how "hard" he made it for me to buy the bullets ever since. He just did not want me to be unhappy with his product, and made me go about things in a logical fashion.

A "salesman" would have taken my $300 on the first phone call.

Mike was asleep the day they taught "salesmanship" at school!

I have shot a few a bud loaded for me in his 458, loaded down around heavy 45-70 stuff it went thru and thru on black bear shoulders, I have no expericence on any thing in Africa,,,,

I just wish he would offer them in some thing a little softer and in 200 grain for my 33 winchester,, they would be the ticket for beer and moose