See below pics of KNOWN AGE wild lions. Let's see you and your PH's age estimation to the nearest 6 months.

LION 1



LION 2



LION 3



LION 4



LION 5



LION 6



LION 7



LION 8

This is going to separate the lion men from the wannabe boys.

Me? I'm just a little boy! But I just love No 3!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

As I don't want to spoil the fun, I've sent a PM but it's sure gonna be interesting.

I have no idea on age but as a novice looking at them, I would say they are all mature males. (Shows how much I know) I guess #5 is the oldest because of the receeding hairline.

I'm going to guess for fun:
1. 6yo
2. 6.5yo
3. 8+yo
4. 4.5yo
5. 3yo
6. 4.5yo
7. 4yo
8. 6yo

I look forward to seeing if I'm even in the ballpark.

Brett

Some of you have PM'd me and what has become evident is that looking at 1 picture from 1 angle makes it very difficult to estimate age. Well, try to immagine being a PH, peeping out of a 3 inch hole from a blind at last light from 50 -70 yards away? Much the same thing though you have other indicators such as behavior, etc, etc that can help.

Also, to clarify, none of these lions are TGT lions in case you thought that.

Brett,
Despite estimating the ages to the nearest 1 year, your estimates vary from 1-3.5 years difference. That means, in an actual situation, a 3 year old could have been mistaken for a 6 year old and wrongly shot.

Your estimate for lion 1 was 5 yr to 6 yrs. So if you had to decide, would you chose 6 yr and shoot him or 5 yrs and leave him? That is very often the true life situation in the field

WAG:

1. 4
2. 4.5
3. 6
4. 4
5. 2.5
6. 3.5
7. 5
8. 4

Heaven help me.

BB,
your average is 6 months - 2.5 yrs off!

The more people try the easier it is to get close. However, the interesting thing is that no one so far is consistant across the entire spectrum. In other words, 2 "similar age" lions are estimated differently by the same person.

ugh...never thought this was eassy and the agony I suffered in 2006 before Hillary Daffi allowed me to lower the boom came back to me in spades. Wnet quick throught he photos like making a snap decision in the field. You guys earn your pay on this.

Jeff

BB,
that is how one learns, through mistakes and relying on others to make your decisions. Many a PH can tell the difference between a "cub", "adolescent", "pre-trophy" and "trophy" male lion but often allow clients to take a "pre-trophy" 5 yr old male for any of the below reasons:
- Sold a guaranteed lion hunt to the client to make a booking
- Pressure from the client to shoot
- Promise of a big tip if successful
- Hunting in an area/block/concession that they have sub-leased; so why bother
- Think the client is ignorant and can't tell the difference.
- Concerned about his "success rate"

and many more. I just wished they all realized the consequences of their actions.

Mich,

When you are done with the polling, can you turn this into a small tutorial using each lion as an example and what to look for? That would be a great help. Thanks

Jeff

My SWAG:

1 = 4
2 = 6.5
3 = 7
4 = 4.5
5 = 5
6 = 6
7 = 5
8 = 4.5

JPK

Bwanamich,

I amended my age estimates to be exact and not age ranges. I see your point. My answer is I don't decide and take the word of my PH unless I can clearly see it is immature. If I could see the immaturity then I would sure hope anyone I would pay money to lion hunt with could see it. I guess 1, 2, 3, & 8 get the thumbs up.

Brett

BB,
I recommend one buys the book "A Hunter's guide to Aging Lions in Eastern and Southern Africa" by Karyl L. Whitman and Professor Craig Packer.

It was authored with the exact intention of assisting hunters in the field with aging information as well as discusses several "myths" about lions. I believe Rowland Ward and Safari Press have it. Its about $17 a copy.

The guide is endorsed by DSC, CIC, IPHA amongst others.

How about this one?

LION 9

What is a general life span of a male lion?

That lion had a bad day! I would guess he recently was kicked out of his pride and was lucky to be alive. 6.5yo?

Well I don't nothing about lions but I will try just for fun...

1) 5
2) 7
3) 6
4) 4
5) 3
6) 5
7) 4
8) 4
9) 5

Show me how bad I am estimating lion age

L

Total guesses, but fun nevertheless.

(1) 6.5 shoot
(2) 5.5
(3) 9.0 shoot (Just looks old)
(4) 5.0
(5) 3.5
(6) 5.0
(7) 7.0 shoot
(8) 5.0
(9) 9.5 shoot (old and past his prime/looks like he lost a fight recently)

Wow. Made me realize that it's a heck of a lot harder to age an animal that has no horns or antlers! I just looked for wear and tear, and sagging bellies.

Bwanamich, I can hardly chicken out on this one.

But I'm going to cheat a little and use the only two categories that matter to a hunter: Shoot! or Don't shoot . . .

My somewhat educated guesses are based on mane size, nose color, facial scars, head shapes and leg markings - not all of which are visible in all photos, which makes this a tough assignment!

1. <6 - Don't shoot . . .
2. >or=6 - But looks like he's holding a pride. Don't shoot . . .
3. >or=6 - Shoot!
4. <6 - Don't shoot . . .
5. <6 - Don't shoot . . .
6. <6 - Don't shoot . . .
7. <6 - Don't shoot . . .
8. <6 - Don't shoot . . .
9. <6 - Don't shoot . . .

If I'm conservative (and I don't think I am), it's for a reason.

I don't know about the exact ages but TGTS would probably only let a client shoot lion #3.

I am very interested to hear if the experts believe that #9 is a trophy.

Here's my best guess.

1: 4
2: 5
3: 6
4: 3
5: 4
6: 4
7: 5
8: 6
9: 4

Would someone please take the collar off the Lioness in Pic #6?

Pic #9 shows a Lion underweight and suffering from fresh wounds inflicted by another Lion within a very short time - the wounds are still pink - before the pic was taken.

Most of the other pics, with possibly two exceptions, show healthy Lions who have yet to be involved in a serious fight, which would indicate they have not taken nor certainly defended a pride.

But that's just my opinion, and what would I know?

quote:

But that's just my opinion, and what would I know?

Your handle is Lion Hunter!

my guesses:
1---5
2---5
3---6
4---4
5---3
6---4
7---4
8---4
9---6

#'s 2,3, and 9 look older than 6 to me.

Mich,

Thanks for the tip. My lion hunting days may be behind me but I hope not. None the less I will continue to try and learn. How reliable is an all black nose in determining a cat to be 6 years old?

Jeff

I am thinking #3 is not the elder statesman, not a shooter

Since I personally have 2 piches of monkey poop of knowlege about this I proxy my vote to Shakari.....I'd shoot anyone and be glad I had one of the big 6 out of the way

quote:

Originally posted by Riodot:
(Shows how much I know) I guess #5 is the oldest because of the receeding hairline.

Kind of like a lot of AR members

Are these lions all from the same general area? Because I'm wondering if #5 might be from a country where the males have very small manes and it was put in here to stir things up

Have all these lions been shot?

And aged properly, rather than guessing?

That is the only way one can actually KNOW how old they are.

I'll take lion number one please ... oh wait, that's South Africa's gig.

I really don't know what I'm talking about and won't guess on ages. I'll guess at what is "shootable" though. All the Lions in the first 8 pictures look too healthy to be living on their own. Regardless of whether their 6 years old or not they don't look as if they've been in any serious fights. Therefor I'm guessing they're still holding a pride. Number 9 also may not be 6 years old but has many old scars making me think he has defended a pride and won in the past. His fresh wounds look to me like he has just defended his pride for the last time and lost. So...despite his age he is no longer part of a pride and can be taken.

I also noticed there is a collar on the lioness. Makes me think, these lions are in some type of reserve. Unless you physically handle the lions and examine their teeth, there is no way of knowing their true age. All the lions could be of shootable age, I would have to depend on my PH tell what to shoot. Lion number 1 and 3 to me would be great just because of their manes and condition. The last one posted looks like he is on his last legs and needs to be taken. He has done is job for the gene pool.

Karamojo Bill,

Thanks for those kind words!

Generally,

I sent my guesstimates to Bwanamich by PM and he's given me the ages......... I guess I wasn't too far out on most, but threw me completely as it has everyone else.

I'd guess that these Lions came from a variety of areas which makes it more difficult and ideally, one needs to see a full frontal and a side shot to be accurate.

As I don't want to steal BwanaMich's thunder by highjacking this thread, I'll start another by asking people to suggest what to look for when aging Lions........... which should also be interesting.

eezridr,
Average 8-10 for males and 13-16 for females though there are exceptions to the rule for both.

JBrown,
I like your philosophy of "rolling with the punches".

LionHunter and others,
The lioness has a collar because she is part of a study group. These particular pics were taken from the same geographical area. I have doen that to show the myriad of variation even within the same geographical area. There are others from different locations that I have not posted here.

BB,
A fully black nose or mostly "pink" nose is not 100% reliable. But the odds are that if a male has a 60+% black nose, then it is over 5/6 years of age. Once they are over 8/9 years of age the % increases to almost 90%. There is no definitive criteria to determine the age of wild lions. All the various criteria's and indicators allow you to arrive at a guesstimate which with experience and knowledge can allow you to predict to the nearest 6 months IMO.

Saeed,
No they have not been shot. The reason these lions ages are known to the nearest month is because researchers know when they were born and have followed them over the years. They are wild lions though.

All,
remember, it is not critical - but is preferable - to avoid shooting a pride male UNLESS the pride has:
a) obviously pregnant or lactating females
b) cubs
c) sub-adult or dependant lions
If you take a pride male in a situation were the above scenario is not applicable there is "little" impact on the dynamics. Once removed, another male will take over with no danger to the pride structure. This is more usual where prides are small such as in 1-3 females were there are times when none of the females are in oestrus, mating or have dependants. Or in prides with large coalitions of males 3-4 where you can remove 1 of the older males without exposing the pride to a take over where dependant members would be at risk of infanticide, etc. Very often you may come across a male on his own but he has left the pride a few miles away. If he is not a known male and linked to a pride with one of the above, then he will be most likely shot. You do loose a few in this way every year. Remember you can't be perfect but you try to minimize the chances.

Brooks,
Lion #9 is another picture of one of the previous 8 and is way under 6. His condition was probably due to fighting during courting. when courting, male lions will often fight for the right to mate (A bit like humans)and also rarely feed during the mating period which can last up to a week to 10 days. They lose weight and condition during this period. His body posture is that way because he is sniffing the grass possibly urine form the female on heat?

What about these 2?
LION 10




LION 11 (From different geographical location)