Answers to the first 8:

1 - 5
2 - 5
3 - 4.5
4 - 4
5 - 5
6 - 5.5
7 - 4.5
8 - 4.5

Number 9 is the same lion as number 5.

Based on these, none of them would qualify for the TZ Government minimum age requirement and therefore un-huntable. These are also the main breeding ages for lion and a regular take-off of 4-5 year old males will cause the population to go in decline. Cub mortality ratios are so high in lions that the population growth rate will be in the negative if these pre-trophy males are regularly hunted.

You can ask your PH's to give you their age estimations and then show them the results.

So, what you are saying unless you work or live in the area and really get to know these lions and can identify them as they grow, it is damn near impossible to age them. Otherwise mane, size, condition means little. The PH needs to know his area and the lions in the area. Again, if I was going after Lion, I would need to rely on the PH and his expertise before I make that shot. I guess that is why we hunters rely on the PH for the that information to shoot or don't shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by DC Roxby:
Total guesses, but fun nevertheless.

(1) 6.5 shoot
(2) 5.5
(3) 9.0 shoot (Just looks old)
(4) 5.0
(5) 3.5
(6) 5.0
(7) 7.0 shoot
(8) 5.0
(9) 9.5 shoot (old and past his prime/looks like he lost a fight recently)

Man, I wasn't even close. I was sure that number 3 was really old. Heck, he looks like he has skin cancer. I have some serious respect for anyone that can routinely guess a lion's age within a year. I tried to ignore the manes and just focus on condition and general "feel". Obviously didn't work.

Based on the further info you gave I am going to try oen more time with the last two:

(10) 3.5 - Nose totally pink
(11) 8 - Nose appears nearly 100% black.

Brooks,
I believe with time and study, one can estimate to the nearest 6 months. It does help if a PH knows the area of course. The more you are in the same area, the more you get a feel for the various prides and their structure that may occur there, the more likely you are of seeing the various males and the more you see them the more likely you are of being able to narrow it down when determining age. Even in large blocks of 1-2 million acres, one can have a pretty good idea of how many "dominant" males there might be from sightings, calls, etc.

My argument is that too often (Judging by lion mounts and pics in shows and magazines) PH's are allowing clients to take "adolescent" and "pre-trophy" males. That is for various reasons but often also because they know clients wouldn't know any better and therefore wouldn't question their judgement. A client with a lion trophy equals a happy client. A happy client equals a return safari and, often, a better tip for the PH!

If you were made to take an "adolescent" male lion (a 4-5 year old), you were cheated out of your safari. JMHO

You know a lot of you have stated that when you go over to Africa to hunt, especially for the first time, your interest lies mainly in hunting good representative specimens of various species. I assume the definition of "representative" is not the same as "immature" or "young"? Representative would have to mean an animal that has reached its full maturity in terms of age with average trophy.

So what is a representative specimen for a male lion? and what is the "trophy" from a lion?

It would have to be a male that is at least 5.5 to 6 years and over with a developed mane. Since all lion hunts MUST be trophy hunts (Other than PAC hunts which are a different issue), the "trophy mane" should be fully developed. We know from research that that only occurs at the age of 5-6 yrs (there are exceptions to the rule but very rarely). I have had various discussions with lion researchers and PH's who would agree that if one had to classify the different age gaps in a male lion they would be:

0 to 6 mth - Infant
6 mth to 1 year - cub
1.5 yr to 3.5 yr - adolescent or young
4 yr to 5.5 yr - pre-trophy or immature
6 yr to 7.5 yr - mature or trophy
8 yr and older - aged or old

REMEMBER ANY GOV MINIMUM REQUIREMENT IN FORCE will also determine if it can be shot or not!

Bwanamich

You made my point by your latest post. You need to know your area and know your lions in that area. Yes, with many years of work, I am sure you can come within 6 months of age. But, I am saying sometimes nature has a way of fooling you.

It is my underestanding these lions ages were known by some individual(s) studying the various prides over several years and they knew the age of the individul lions as to when they were born.

This post of yours was a good learning lesson for us all. Good work!

quote:

Originally posted by Brooks Carmichael:
But, I am saying sometimes nature has a way of fooling you.

You are 110% correct! Aging wild lions in field conditions is far from an exact science. there will always continue to be young and immature male lions shot by hunters. What is important for the sustainability of lion hunting in the future is that these get minimized to sustainable levels.

Well I was off on the first 9 lions by an average of 1.33 years and three lions that shouldn't have would have been shot. Number 3 blows my mind. I thought he was much older! So I guess I'll take a crack at the last two for the sake of masochism.

10. 3 yo
11. 7 yo

Brett

Number 3 may be very misleading due to the photo itself. For sure it is a male with exceptional trophy potential. One can briefly see the mane along the spine of it which could be the only clear indication that it is still "growing" in age and mane. The "odd" lighting in the picture also makes it harder as coloration of body and mane is one of the indicators; this photo makes it look darker than what it possibly is. i don't have another photo of it unfortunately. It sure would have put me off the age mark as well........

My guess - Reality - Difference
1 = 4 - 5 - 1
2 = 6.5 - 5 - 1.5
3 = 7 - 4.5 - 2.5
4 = 4.5 - 4 - .5
5 = 5 - 5 - 0
6 = 6 - 5.5 - .5
7 = 5 - 4.5 - .5
8 = 4.5 - 4.5 - 0
Total 42.5 - 38 - 6.5

In aggregate, I over estimated the lions age by 11.84% or depending on how you average the error, in the aggregate or individually, I missed by either .562 or by .81yrs on average.

Notably, in only one case did I underestimate the age. And clearly missed by large margins on two and three.

Not too bad I think.

JPK

Bwanamich,

I was rereading "Some Lions I Have Met" last night and got to thinking: When Botswana was open hunters consistently took some of the most impressive maned lions anywhere in Africa. Was this because of superior genetics? Or was it because of conservative quotas allowing hunting companies to be selective and only take lions over 6? Or other reasons?

Brett

Hi Brett,
Not sure what era you are referring to with Botswana? I think that if one looks thorugh the last 50 years of trophy hunting, one will find that 20 - 50 years ago, trophys in general to include lion were, on average, of better quality then today. Reason? More hunters maybe, more pressure over the years, poor ethics? Could be varied and many.

Every year, I see a good 2 dozen or so stunning, old, fully maned lion taken by various outfitter's in Tanzania. Truly trophy's of a lifetime. Are these "more" in number or much less than what Botswana produced? I wouldn't think so.

It is very difficult to dispute that some geographical areas produce consistently better trophy quality than others. As to the reasons why, even scientists are baffled.....

I find that lions taken 20-50yrs ago, at least those represented by the trophy rooms I have seen, have been far, far surpassed by trophies takem more recently.

I believe that 20-50yrs ago, any "reasonable" lion was considered a shooter. Now the definition of "reasonable" has changed. Very few of the older trophies that I have seen would make that 6yr old grade, and some of the trophy rooms have six or eight of them.

Common refrain, from hunters now aware of their tropies' shortcomings, "...he had a lot more main when I shot him..."

JPK

JPK

Bwanamich,

Sorry. I should have clarified my previous post. The book deals with the past, but I was referring to lions taken in Botswana right before the recent lion hunting closure. Although a lot of lions are taken in Tanzania every year, it seems like the percentage of stunners is much lower than it was in Botswana. I wondered what your thoughts were on this. Genetics, management, conservative quotas, other? Thanks.

Brett