quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I responded anonymously above but it raised a question in my mind regarding the interplay of trophy exports and tipping. If you are on a canned lion hunt in South Africa with Mark Sullivan in order to complete your Inner Circle Diamond Award and receive a World Hunting Award Ring and you are successful on the hunt but elect not to export the trophy, how does that affect the appropriate tip?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I responded anonymously above but it raised a question in my mind regarding the interplay of trophy exports and tipping. If you are on a canned lion hunt in South Africa with Mark Sullivan in order to complete your Inner Circle Diamond Award and receive a World Hunting Award Ring and you are successful on the hunt but elect not to export the trophy, how does that affect the appropriate tip?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Mike, I would add, you're not as good a litigator as you may think.

Since I am the only "No" vote, your answer is intuitively obvious, to even the most casual observer.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Mike, I would add, you're not as good a litigator as you may think.

Since I am the only "No" vote, your answer is intuitively obvious, to even the most casual observer.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Mike, I would add, you're not as good a litigator as you may think.

Since I am the only "No" vote, your answer is intuitively obvious, to even the most casual observer.

How do we know you voted?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I responded anonymously above but it raised a question in my mind regarding the interplay of trophy exports and tipping. If you are on a canned lion hunt in South Africa with Mark Sullivan in order to complete your Inner Circle Diamond Award and receive a World Hunting Award Ring and you are successful on the hunt but elect not to export the trophy, how does that affect the appropriate tip?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Mike, I would add, you're not as good a litigator as you may think.

Since I am the only "No" vote, your answer is intuitively obvious, to even the most casual observer.

How do we know you voted?

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
I would think its more or less impossible to "save" every trophy. I have friends here that probably shot over 100 moose.

You need to hunt more Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
I would think its more or less impossible to "save" every trophy. I have friends here that probably shot over 100 moose.

You need to hunt more Steve

Hi Anton,

For me, personally, I won't shoot something without the intention of having a portion of it be a trophy. Unless it's a meat hunt, I see no point in it.

If my Trophy Room becomes unmanageable, I have other options. If they all fill, I would likely not shoot stuff, just for the thrill? I guess?

Is the value we assign to an animal we kill to simply takes its picture is just a few megapixels on a camera card, couldn't that be perceived as a bit shallow?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
I would think its more or less impossible to "save" every trophy. I have friends here that probably shot over 100 moose.

You need to hunt more Steve

Is the value we assign to an animal we kill to simply takes its picture is just a few megapixels on a camera card, couldn't that be perceived as a bit shallow?

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Steve,

Joking aside, here's serious question. Were Joyce and wrong to not cancel our Elephant Hunt with Buzz since we knew we would not be able to import the Elephant?

Cheers
Jim

quote:

For me, personally, I won't shoot something without the intention of having a portion of it be a trophy. Unless it's a meat hunt, I see no point in it.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
I would think its more or less impossible to "save" every trophy. I have friends here that probably shot over 100 moose.

You need to hunt more Steve

Hi Anton,

For me, personally, I won't shoot something without the intention of having a portion of it be a trophy. Unless it's a meat hunt, I see no point in it.

If my Trophy Room becomes unmanageable, I have other options. If they all fill, I would likely not shoot stuff, just for the thrill? I guess?

Is the value we assign to an animal we kill to simply takes its picture is just a few megapixels on a camera card, couldn't that be perceived as a bit shallow?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
I would think its more or less impossible to "save" every trophy. I have friends here that probably shot over 100 moose.

You need to hunt more Steve

Hi Anton,

For me, personally, I won't shoot something without the intention of having a portion of it be a trophy. Unless it's a meat hunt, I see no point in it.

If my Trophy Room becomes unmanageable, I have other options. If they all fill, I would likely not shoot stuff, just for the thrill? I guess?

Is the value we assign to an animal we kill to simply takes its picture is just a few megapixels on a camera card, couldn't that be perceived as a bit shallow?

Steve - Some of us just LOVE to hunt, period! I leave "trophies" in Africa all the time now, I simply have no room for them all. But that doesn't mean I want to stop "hunting" them, simply because I can't put another trophy in a trophy room. I've never hunted strictly for the "trophy" anyway, and never will. I love to hunt for big trophies if possible - but the act of "hunting" is what I love most.

Perceive it as one will, but the opposite could be said - that if the "trophy" to you is so important that you won't keep hunting if you have no room for more "trophies", then was it really "hunting" that you sought, or just the "trophy"? Couldn't that be perceived as a bit shallow?

Frankly I was surprised at the number of "hunters" that stopped going to Zim for elephant, when the ivory importation ban was implemented. Obviously most of them were as / more interested in taking the "trophy" home, than they were in the actual hunt itself.

Honestly, I couldn't care less either way - that's up to the individual. But....since you brought it up.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
I would think its more or less impossible to "save" every trophy. I have friends here that probably shot over 100 moose.

You need to hunt more Steve

Hi Anton,

For me, personally, I won't shoot something without the intention of having a portion of it be a trophy. Unless it's a meat hunt, I see no point in it.

If my Trophy Room becomes unmanageable, I have other options. If they all fill, I would likely not shoot stuff, just for the thrill? I guess?

Is the value we assign to an animal we kill to simply takes its picture is just a few megapixels on a camera card, couldn't that be perceived as a bit shallow?

Steve - Some of us just LOVE to hunt, period! I leave "trophies" in Africa all the time now, I simply have no room for them all. But that doesn't mean I want to stop "hunting" them, simply because I can't put another trophy in a trophy room. I've never hunted strictly for the "trophy" anyway, and never will. I love to hunt for big trophies if possible - but the act of "hunting" is what I love most.

Perceive it as one will, but the opposite could be said - that if the "trophy" to you is so important that you won't keep hunting if you have no room for more "trophies", then was it really "hunting" that you sought, or just the "trophy"? Couldn't that be perceived as a bit shallow?

Frankly I was surprised at the number of "hunters" that stopped going to Zim for elephant, when the ivory importation ban was implemented. Obviously most of them were as / more interested in taking the "trophy" home, than they were in the actual hunt itself.

Honestly, I couldn't care less either way - that's up to the individual. But....since you brought it up.

Good points all Aaron. My point is, in my mind, the "full circle" isn't complete. We both participate in the process all the way to the kill. If the only thing that separates a photo safari, and a hunting safari is the kill, is it the hunt we desire, or simply the kill?

It is really just a philosophical discussion. Again, I haven't and won't judge those that don't bring the stuff home.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
I would think its more or less impossible to "save" every trophy. I have friends here that probably shot over 100 moose.

You need to hunt more Steve

Hi Anton,

For me, personally, I won't shoot something without the intention of having a portion of it be a trophy. Unless it's a meat hunt, I see no point in it.

If my Trophy Room becomes unmanageable, I have other options. If they all fill, I would likely not shoot stuff, just for the thrill? I guess?

Is the value we assign to an animal we kill to simply takes its picture is just a few megapixels on a camera card, couldn't that be perceived as a bit shallow?

Steve - Some of us just LOVE to hunt, period! I leave "trophies" in Africa all the time now, I simply have no room for them all. But that doesn't mean I want to stop "hunting" them, simply because I can't put another trophy in a trophy room. I've never hunted strictly for the "trophy" anyway, and never will. I love to hunt for big trophies if possible - but the act of "hunting" is what I love most.

Perceive it as one will, but the opposite could be said - that if the "trophy" to you is so important that you won't keep hunting if you have no room for more "trophies", then was it really "hunting" that you sought, or just the "trophy"? Couldn't that be perceived as a bit shallow?

Frankly I was surprised at the number of "hunters" that stopped going to Zim for elephant, when the ivory importation ban was implemented. Obviously most of them were as / more interested in taking the "trophy" home, than they were in the actual hunt itself.

Honestly, I couldn't care less either way - that's up to the individual. But....since you brought it up.

Good points all Aaron. My point is, in my mind, the "full circle" isn't complete. We both participate in the process all the way to the kill. If the only thing that separates a photo safari, and a hunting safari is the kill, is it the hunt we desire, or simply the kill?

It is really just a philosophical discussion. Again, I haven't and won't judge those that don't bring the stuff home.

Again, it's the experience that's the difference. I guess I could hire Mike Scott to meet Joyce and I in Mozambique and we could drive out into the same L7 block we hunted, pick up tracks and follow game without actually killing it. We might experience the same smells and sights and even stumble across the same Cobra or Mamba. It would still be a different experience simply taking a picture and leaving.

Taking a photo safari from a typical provider of photo safaris in Africa and having them radio the rest of the cars to come see the Lion, eventually having a dozen vehicle with yakking New Yorkers is not even close to a hunting safari.

The kill is not the only aspect separating the two. But that said, I like killing things. There I said it.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

I simply feel my responsibility goes further, its really that simple.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

I simply feel my responsibility goes further, its really that simple.

Perhaps not. You say above that you would not hunt lion or elephant without the ability to import the trophies. Not hunting lion and elephant means that critical dollars from trophy fees that are necessary for anti-poaching, research, habitat preservation, etc. are lost . . . to the detriment of both species. It could be suggested that only hunting those animals if able to import the trophies is actually acting irresponsibly as to both species and that those that continue to do such hunts despite the import restrictions are actually acting more responsibly. Just another perspective.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

I simply feel my responsibility goes further, its really that simple.

Perhaps not. You say above that you would not hunt lion or elephant without the ability to import the trophies. Not hunting lion and elephant means that critical dollars from trophy fees that are necessary for anti-poaching, research, habitat preservation, etc. are lost . . . to the detriment of both species. It could be suggested that only hunting those animals if able to import the trophies is actually acting irresponsibly as to both species and that those that continue to do such hunts despite the import restrictions are actually acting more responsibly. Just another perspective.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

I simply feel my responsibility goes further, its really that simple.

Perhaps not. You say above that you would not hunt lion or elephant without the ability to import the trophies. Not hunting lion and elephant means that critical dollars from trophy fees that are necessary for anti-poaching, research, habitat preservation, etc. are lost . . . to the detriment of both species. It could be suggested that only hunting those animals if able to import the trophies is actually acting irresponsibly as to both species and that those that continue to do such hunts despite the import restrictions are actually acting more responsibly. Just another perspective.

+1...Conservation must be the primary reason we trophy hunt. If not, history will not be kind to our legacy.

quote:

If conservation is the primary reason, why not just donate the monies and call it a day?

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
killing for the fun of killing just does not excite me whatsoever

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Man, this philosophical stuff is really making my head hurt! Lets just go hunting!!

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Glad Steve Arhenberg and Jim have acknowledged they like to engage in a bloodsport.

I do too. I like to kill stuff too why else would I go 10,000 miles, spend 40-50 percent of median us worker annual income to sometimes bring back trophies that are basically worthless after I spend lots of money mounting it. Going on safari does not relax or de stresses me like it does some other ar members. I enjoy the hunting and killing part but the whole process - air travel, packing, being out of electronic communications sucks and is stress full.

At least for me I can take the killing out of vacation and just go on a green vacation of Africa cause I am trading off traveling with guns, $$$$ spent for other stuff.

I can get my bloodsport in the us and at the same time have meat.

The conservation in hunting comes from $$$$ spent, private property rights, rational economic agents maximizing profits over time and optimal use of a renewable resource. The act of killing an animal does little for conservation directly - it's all the indirect stuff. But if there is no property right - there will be little conservation.

One even occasionally kills fish in catch and release.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

I simply feel my responsibility goes further, its really that simple.

Perhaps not. You say above that you would not hunt lion or elephant without the ability to import the trophies. Not hunting lion and elephant means that critical dollars from trophy fees that are necessary for anti-poaching, research, habitat preservation, etc. are lost . . . to the detriment of both species. It could be suggested that only hunting those animals if able to import the trophies is actually acting irresponsibly as to both species and that those that continue to do such hunts despite the import restrictions are actually acting more responsibly. Just another perspective.