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Purely anonymously, A poll to see what people generally think about shooting and leaving trophies? Formerly "Nganga" | ||
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When you say shoot and leave it, do you mean shoot and leave the whole carcus? If yes, than I vote no it is not morally ok. If by shot and leave it you mean, leave the horns, tusk, cap, or whatever behind and just take photos for "trophies"instead. The carcus being utilized for food. Then yes, I vote that is morally ok. Utilation of game as food most be and remain essential to the hunting ethic. As I have said and will always say in these conversations. I believe it is that important to the life of hunting. Stated more Kentucky,"If someone is not going to eat it, then I am not killing it." I have an exception for over populated vermin or predators. That said you will have to kill your on fox. I can't do it. | |||
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I responded anonymously above but it raised a question in my mind regarding the interplay of trophy exports and tipping. If you are on a canned lion hunt in South Africa with Mark Sullivan in order to complete your Inner Circle Diamond Award and receive a World Hunting Award Ring and you are successful on the hunt but elect not to export the trophy, how does that affect the appropriate tip? Mike | |||
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Way to derail Steve's thread. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Mjines: I see what you did. I took me a minute, but I got it. I do not care what anyone says you are very funny. | |||
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If your an SCI guy and want to choose how to die, I guess it really wouldn't matter? I guess? Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Mike, I would add, you're not as good a litigator as you may think. Since I am the only "No" vote, your answer is intuitively obvious, to even the most casual observer. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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He probably didn't vote but might complain like Madonna. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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BTW, Steve, thanks for brightening up another snow shoveling morning. Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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I would think its more or less impossible to "save" every trophy. I have friends here that probably shot over 100 moose. You need to hunt more Steve | |||
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How do we know you voted? Mike | |||
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Trust but verify. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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LOL! ______________________________________________ The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who are bereft of that gift. | |||
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Well, I guess we're back to you being a good litigator. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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I had all of my stuff imported back to the states and it was more than a little pain in my ass to do so. Disagreements with the African outfitter and D&P guy then issues with the 3rd party African shipping scam artist and in the end way more money than I was told it would be or anticipated But if I was to go back I would do it again......however I voted YES Because in my mind it is ok with me to leave the "trophy" and bring home memories if you choose to do so ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Hi Anton, For me, personally, I won't shoot something without the intention of having a portion of it be a trophy. Unless it's a meat hunt, I see no point in it. If my Trophy Room becomes unmanageable, I have other options. If they all fill, I would likely not shoot stuff, just for the thrill? I guess? Is the value we assign to an animal we kill to simply takes its picture is just a few megapixels on a camera card, couldn't that be perceived as a bit shallow? Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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How do we rank full mount to shoulder mounts to europeans to rugs to dozens of smaller products made out of trophies? Mike | |||
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Nope! The value is the experience, adventure, memory and it doesn't require a tribute via mount. Your mileage may vary. The two Caribou Joyce and I killed last august for the freezer included three two mile trips off of 5,000 feet to get the meat to the truck. The second trip out was in the dark with headlamps. The meat was the "trophy" but the experience of walking in bear country with bloody meat on your back in the dark with headlamps at 63 years old was the true trophy. Again your mileage may vary. BTW, I think you and Mike should get counseling and renew your bromance. Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Steve, Joking aside, here's serious question. Were Joyce and wrong to not cancel our Elephant Hunt with Buzz since we knew we would not be able to import the Elephant? Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Who am I to judge you and Joyce? For ME no, I wouldn't even consider it. Total wave off. This is meant to be a non-judgmental topic. You did your thing, I do mine. I have a 21 day full license in September in TZ. I will only consider shooting Lion, Jumbo if there is a change in the USFWS. To quote a famous author, whom made his name writing of his Safaris' "I want him forever" Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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The point is conservation and the hunt is what counts...the rest is just "stuff" | |||
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Steve - Some of us just LOVE to hunt, period! I leave "trophies" in Africa all the time now, I simply have no room for them all. But that doesn't mean I want to stop "hunting" them, simply because I can't put another trophy in a trophy room. I've never hunted strictly for the "trophy" anyway, and never will. I love to hunt for big trophies if possible - but the act of "hunting" is what I love most. Perceive it as one will, but the opposite could be said - that if the "trophy" to you is so important that you won't keep hunting if you have no room for more "trophies", then was it really "hunting" that you sought, or just the "trophy"? Couldn't that be perceived as a bit shallow? Frankly I was surprised at the number of "hunters" that stopped going to Zim for elephant, when the ivory importation ban was implemented. Obviously most of them were as / more interested in taking the "trophy" home, than they were in the actual hunt itself. Honestly, I couldn't care less either way - that's up to the individual. But....since you brought it up. | |||
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Here is Ruark's exact quote. Already I was beginning to fall into the African way of thinking: That if you properly respect what you are after, and shoot it cleanly and on the animal’s terrain, if you imprison in your mind all the wonder of the day from sky to smell to breeze to flowers—then you have not merely killed an animal. You have lent immortality to a beast you have killed because you loved him and wanted him forever so that you could always recapture the day. —Use Enough Gun - See more at: http://sportingclassicsdaily.c...sthash.yR9DYjyo.dpuf Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Good points all Aaron. My point is, in my mind, the "full circle" isn't complete. We both participate in the process all the way to the kill. If the only thing that separates a photo safari, and a hunting safari is the kill, is it the hunt we desire, or simply the kill? It is really just a philosophical discussion. Again, I haven't and won't judge those that don't bring the stuff home. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Again, it's the experience that's the difference. I guess I could hire Mike Scott to meet Joyce and I in Mozambique and we could drive out into the same L7 block we hunted, pick up tracks and follow game without actually killing it. We might experience the same smells and sights and even stumble across the same Cobra or Mamba. It would still be a different experience simply taking a picture and leaving. Taking a photo safari from a typical provider of photo safaris in Africa and having them radio the rest of the cars to come see the Lion, eventually having a dozen vehicle with yakking New Yorkers is not even close to a hunting safari. The kill is not the only aspect separating the two. But that said, I like killing things. There I said it. Cheers Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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As do I. I just would feel as though I forgot something without the trophy. Some seem to think I have an aversion to killing. Nothing could be further from the truth. I simply feel my responsibility goes further, its really that simple. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Perhaps not. You say above that you would not hunt lion or elephant without the ability to import the trophies. Not hunting lion and elephant means that critical dollars from trophy fees that are necessary for anti-poaching, research, habitat preservation, etc. are lost . . . to the detriment of both species. It could be suggested that only hunting those animals if able to import the trophies is actually acting irresponsibly as to both species and that those that continue to do such hunts despite the import restrictions are actually acting more responsibly. Just another perspective. Mike | |||
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Can't argue that either Mike. But, to drill down into that, is almost like the old "tree falling" question. Is my impact a positive or a negative to the GMA without shooting the Lion or Elephant? Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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+1...Conservation must be the primary reason we trophy hunt. If not, history will not be kind to our legacy. | |||
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If conservation is the primary reason, why not just donate the monies and call it a day? I, Like Jim, will admit I enjoy the kill. It's primal, instinctive and I'm unapologetic about it, without the kill, I don't wish to participate. If we are going to be a slave as to what history says about us, what does it say, to hunt and kill an animal to take its picture? Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Man, this philosophical stuff is really making my head hurt! Lets just go hunting!! | |||
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just because I believe it should be the primary reason, doesn't mean its the only reason...we are all hunters and understand that part well. | |||
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I voted but I don't need to pontificate about it. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Assuming the meat will be utilized, as it nearly always is... To me, Killing a trophy animal just so I can have my picture taken next to is somehow intrinsically wrong. Killing it and having it mounted on my wall is fully acceptable. I really can't narrow it down any more than that, but then again I don't need to. It may be related to my overwhelming preference for sculpture over paintings, or just too much Ruark as a boy. Realistically though, I have taken far more stuff than I could ever fit on my wall and nowhere did I ever agree to "The Taxidermist Full Employment Act"! So I restrict myself to "special" animals or trophies from memorable hunts. That works out to one or two animals per safari usually. But I am never really happy about the "wasted" skins or horns. Your mileage may vary. | |||
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killing for the fun of killing just does not excite me whatsoever | |||
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I do not think that is what you are hearing from most folks . . . that they hunt for the fun of killing. I think the quote by Jose Ortega y Gasset sums it up nicely: "One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted...If one were to present the sportsman with the death of the animal as a gift he would refuse it. What he is after is having to win it, to conquer the surly brute through his own effort and skill with all the extras that this carries with it: the immersion in the countryside, the healthfulness of the exercise, the distraction from his job." Mike | |||
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Glad Steve Arhenberg and Jim have acknowledged they like to engage in a bloodsport. I do too. I like to kill stuff too why else would I go 10,000 miles, spend 40-50 percent of median us worker annual income to sometimes bring back trophies that are basically worthless after I spend lots of money mounting it. Going on safari does not relax or de stresses me like it does some other ar members. I enjoy the hunting and killing part but the whole process - air travel, packing, being out of electronic communications sucks and is stress full. At least for me I can take the killing out of vacation and just go on a green vacation of Africa cause I am trading off traveling with guns, $$$$ spent for other stuff. I can get my bloodsport in the us and at the same time have meat. The conservation in hunting comes from $$$$ spent, private property rights, rational economic agents maximizing profits over time and optimal use of a renewable resource. The act of killing an animal does little for conservation directly - it's all the indirect stuff. But if there is no property right - there will be little conservation. One even occasionally kills fish in catch and release. Mike | |||
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Better than you chest. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Great points Mike. As to your point about catch and release fish dying. You saw with your own eyes the amount of time spent with the Piraiba prior to release. Our group did in fact lose one and you saw the reaction. We immediately discontinued fishing for them for the balance of the trip. You hooked one fishing for another species. Paul hooked one Payara fishing also,but he was in a Kayak. A 200# fish on a bass rod, from a kayak. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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From my Elephant Hunt report.... "I even had to question my own motives for spending a large sum of money on a foreign hunt knowing full well I would likely not be able to import the ivory. The idea of a cancelation weighed on my mind for a couple of weeks and I came to realize I would be a hypocrite to claim to be a conservationist if the ivory was the true drive for considering killing a species presently diminishing in numbers as a result of poaching and habitat pressures. I’ve always claimed that hunting, other than freezer filling here in Alaska, was about the experience. Thus I reconciled in my mind that this hunt must happen. My dollars would support the survival of the Elephant as a whole by giving it value to the locals. The meat from our Bull ended up distributed to five separate villages in time for their Independence Day celebrations." ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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