quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Glad Steve Arhenberg and Jim have acknowledged they like to engage in a bloodsport.

I do too. I like to kill stuff too why else would I go 10,000 miles, spend 40-50 percent of median us worker annual income to sometimes bring back trophies that are basically worthless after I spend lots of money mounting it. Going on safari does not relax or de stresses me like it does some other ar members. I enjoy the hunting and killing part but the whole process - air travel, packing, being out of electronic communications sucks and is stress full.

At least for me I can take the killing out of vacation and just go on a green vacation of Africa cause I am trading off traveling with guns, $$$$ spent for other stuff.

I can get my bloodsport in the us and at the same time have meat.

The conservation in hunting comes from $$$$ spent, private property rights, rational economic agents maximizing profits over time and optimal use of a renewable resource. The act of killing an animal does little for conservation directly - it's all the indirect stuff. But if there is no property right - there will be little conservation.

One even occasionally kills fish in catch and release.

Mike

Great points Mike. As to your point about catch and release fish dying. You saw with your own eyes the amount of time spend with the Piraiba prior to release.

Our group did in fact lose one and you saw the reaction. We immediately discontinued fishing for them for the balance of the trip. You hooked one fishing for another species. Paul hooked one Payara fishing also,but he was in a Kayak.

A 200# fish on a bass rod, from a kayak.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Glad Steve Arhenberg and Jim have acknowledged they like to engage in a bloodsport.

I do too. I like to kill stuff too why else would I go 10,000 miles, spend 40-50 percent of median us worker annual income to sometimes bring back trophies that are basically worthless after I spend lots of money mounting it. Going on safari does not relax or de stresses me like it does some other ar members. I enjoy the hunting and killing part but the whole process - air travel, packing, being out of electronic communications sucks and is stress full.

At least for me I can take the killing out of vacation and just go on a green vacation of Africa cause I am trading off traveling with guns, $$$$ spent for other stuff.

I can get my bloodsport in the us and at the same time have meat.

The conservation in hunting comes from $$$$ spent, private property rights, rational economic agents maximizing profits over time and optimal use of a renewable resource. The act of killing an animal does little for conservation directly - it's all the indirect stuff. But if there is no property right - there will be little conservation.

One even occasionally kills fish in catch and release.

Mike

Great points Mike. As to your point about catch and release fish dying. You saw with your own eyes the amount of time spend with the Piraiba prior to release.

Our group did in fact lose one and you saw the reaction. We immediately discontinued fishing for them for the balance of the trip. You hooked one fishing for another species. Paul hooked one Payara fishing also,but he was in a Kayak.

A 200# fish on a bass rod, from a kayak.

+1

I have only seen one true conservationist in all my hunting and fishing - that was Abel the indian guide in Brazil. A true conservationist is one who will choose conservation and take a stand resulting in a serious economic loss.

I think it was because he came from a world view so removed from a consumerist world view one finds in 98-99 percent of humanity.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

I think it was because he came from a world view so removed from a consumerist world view one finds in 98-99 percent of humanity.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

I think it was because he came from a world view so removed from a consumerist world view one finds in 98-99 percent of humanity.

Mike

Tips will change that.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Man, this philosophical stuff is really making my head hurt! Lets just go hunting!!

Better than you chest.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

I think it was because he came from a world view so removed from a consumerist world view one finds in 98-99 percent of humanity.

Mike

Tips will change that.

Not so sure.

They like consumer stuff - everyone does. They like the comp via tips and fishing to buy stuff - boats to get around river. Stuff.

But I think they have a deeper tie to the river and the fish. They will trade stuff/money/tips for very little change to the river. Maybe that changes over time.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

I think it was because he came from a world view so removed from a consumerist world view one finds in 98-99 percent of humanity.

Mike

Tips will change that.

Not so sure.

They like consumer stuff - everyone does. They like the comp via tips and fishing to buy stuff - boats to get around river. Stuff.

But I think they have a deeper tie to the river and the fish. They will trade stuff/money/tips for very little change to the river. Maybe that changes over time.

Mike

I think I agree with Mike. These people are far different than anything you have or will ever experience. They could carry all their personal possessions in their hat. They don't see any need for anymore.

Some mornings fishing, we start fishing with small snails, gathered on the bank. We then catch Pacu and other small baitfish with the snails, we then have bait to fish for the desired species. To them, everything has a reason and a flow, no need to be in a hurry. I've learned volumes about life in general from them.

Their days all begin with the morning and end with the evening with the same happy and peaceful smile they had, greeting you at the boat in the morning.

A thunderstorm while traveling the river is normal. We (clients) put on our raincoats. Some of them have raincoats, some don't. Those that don't simply carry on, with no reaction to the rain.

As mentioned we lost a Piraiba. The group before us lost three. The reason was unknown so we just stopped. Paul, who speaks their language was concerned not only for the fish but that they might throw us off the river, which they can do.

Comparing them to the trackers and villagers in rural Africa isn't going to even be a close comparison. If I had to really reach for a comparison, think of the relationship the big blue monkeys had with the land in the movie Avatar. It is in fact that spiritual to them.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
A 200# fish on a bass rod, from a kayak.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
A 200# fish on a bass rod, from a kayak.

That sounds real fun!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
One even occasionally kills fish in catch and release.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
One even occasionally kills fish in catch and release.

Mike

A lot more catch and release fish die than people think. There have been studies on mortality rates on fish 5 to 7 days after release. For some fish it can be 30% or higher.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
killing for the fun of killing just does not excite me whatsoever

I do not think that is what you are hearing from most folks . . . that they hunt for the fun of killing. I think the quote by Jose Ortega y Gasset sums it up nicely:

"One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted...If one were to present the sportsman with the death of the animal as a gift he would refuse it. What he is after is having to win it What he is after is having to win it, to conquer the surly brute through his own effort and skill with all the extras that this carries with it: the immersion in the countryside, the healthfulness of the exercise, the distraction from his job."

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Nothing is ever wasted in Africa!

I would shoot any animal on life like lisence, if no one eats it - the vultures and hyaenas would!

And I love vultures and haenas

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I have a house full of taxidermy and a bunch in waiting with the taxidermist for me to give him the word to mount it. I must say Sadie is responsible for a lot of that as she really loves the taxidermy. Having said that if hunter comes to me on a tight budget and wants to hunt Africa badly the first thing I might tell him is cut out the trophy shipping and taxidermy. As long as the animal is utilized I see no moral dilemma there. To me it is important to spend a few moments with the dead animal and thank him for what he has provided and just admire a magnificent creature but that's just my routine.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
killing for the fun of killing just does not excite me whatsoever

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:
This is an interesting question to ponder. I clicked that it would be OK to leave the trophies there, but then, even if I were to leave most of the trophies there, I suspect I'd likely always bring one or two home. Pictures, yes many, of everything. For me it is less about whether to bring trophies home or leave them, than it is to hunt animals I find of interest. As an example, I have absolutely no interest in shooting any blesbok, bontebok, genetic mutation springbok ot tsessebe. Those animals are simply of no interest whatsoever, even if a Rowland Ward world record. On the other hand, I'll always be interested in hunting more Buffalo, regardless of whether I bring them home or not.

I've found that mounting animals has become less and less important to me in recent years. My trophy room is 'tastefully' full, as I don't like crowding them just for the sake of adding another mount, but I do like having the antlers, horns, skulls around as a memento of a great hunting experience. An example would be elk, as I have 7 of the good bulls my son and I shot in my room. My fireplace will only hold 5 of them, so I have my first big 6 pt. bull up there, along with my sons 1st and my biggest all up on the chimney. I have antlers of a couple solo archery 6 pt. bulls sitting on the hearth, but two of our biggest bulls are sitting in other areas on the floor. I doubt they'll ever get mounted or put on my fireplace but I always enjoy looking at them and remembering those hunts.

Heck, I have skulls from an old strip buck and a B&C pronghorn I killed solo last fall sitting out in the garage. I doubt I'll ever mount them or even put them in the house-but I like seeing them every day.

I guess it just isn't that important to me either way as I've grown older.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I will bet there are very few minimalist with trophy rooms.

People who have a lot of trophies also will tend to have a lot of stuff - not just hunting or fishing but also general stuff in life.

My goal in life is to have very little stuff beyond guns and books. I need to start getting rid of guns and give away some books.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I will bet there are very few minimalist with trophy rooms.

People who have a lot of trophies also will tend to have a lot of stuff - not just hunting or fishing but also general stuff in life.

My goal in life is to have very little stuff beyond guns and books. I need to start getting rid of guns and give away some books.

Mike

You've been to our place. I don't think we are minimalists and certainly not excessive accumulators. The issue for us at this stage of life and retirement is downsizing the "stuff" when that "stuff" generally has some nostalgic attachment.

Our native art and craft collection is a good example. To anyone else that are baskets, and ivory carvings, and animal parts turned to art.

To us they are Anna Beaver, Margaret Wassillie, Samuel Fox and other's legacy. You just can't part with that easily. I'm sure eventually, unless we die suddenly, they will be gifted to friends and relatives.

I already promised Brett Barringer the Croc but he has to take it down.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I will bet there are very few minimalist with trophy rooms.

People who have a lot of trophies also will tend to have a lot of stuff - not just hunting or fishing but also general stuff in life.

My goal in life is to have very little stuff beyond guns and books. I need to start getting rid of guns and give away some books.

Mike

You've been to our place. I don't think we are minimalists and certainly not excessive accumulators. The issue for us at this stage of life and retirement is downsizing the "stuff" when that "stuff" generally has some nostalgic attachment.

Our native art and craft collection is a good example. To anyone else that are baskets, and ivory carvings, and animal parts turned to art.

To us they are Anna Beaver, Margaret Wassillie, Samuel Fox and other's legacy. You just can't part with that easily. I'm sure eventually, unless we die suddenly, they will be gifted to friends and relatives.

I already promised Brett Barringer the Croc but he has to take it down.

Cheers
Jim

Jim:
You and Joyce do have a beautiful home and tastefully done. One question: why the life-sized statue, bronze bust, and portraits--all of Shootaway?
Just wondering?
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I will bet there are very few minimalist with trophy rooms.

People who have a lot of trophies also will tend to have a lot of stuff - not just hunting or fishing but also general stuff in life.

My goal in life is to have very little stuff beyond guns and books. I need to start getting rid of guns and give away some books.

Mike

You've been to our place. I don't think we are minimalists and certainly not excessive accumulators. The issue for us at this stage of life and retirement is downsizing the "stuff" when that "stuff" generally has some nostalgic attachment.

Our native art and craft collection is a good example. To anyone else that are baskets, and ivory carvings, and animal parts turned to art.

To us they are Anna Beaver, Margaret Wassillie, Samuel Fox and other's legacy. You just can't part with that easily. I'm sure eventually, unless we die suddenly, they will be gifted to friends and relatives.

I already promised Brett Barringer the Croc but he has to take it down.

Cheers
Jim

Jim:
You and Joyce do have a beautiful home and tastefully done. One question: why the life-sized statue, bronze bust, and portraits--all of Shootaway?
Just wondering?
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas

Jim:
You and Joyce do have a beautiful home and tastefully done. One question: why the life-sized statue, bronze bust, and portraits--all of Shootaway?
Just wondering?
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

I simply feel my responsibility goes further, its really that simple.

Perhaps not. You say above that you would not hunt lion or elephant without the ability to import the trophies. Not hunting lion and elephant means that critical dollars from trophy fees that are necessary for anti-poaching, research, habitat preservation, etc. are lost . . . to the detriment of both species. It could be suggested that only hunting those animals if able to import the trophies is actually acting irresponsibly as to both species and that those that continue to do such hunts despite the import restrictions are actually acting more responsibly. Just another perspective.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas

Jim:
You and Joyce do have a beautiful home and tastefully done. One question: why the life-sized statue, bronze bust, and portraits--all of Shootaway?
Just wondering?
Cal

He was much cuter as a child . . .

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I will bet there are very few minimalist with trophy rooms.

People who have a lot of trophies also will tend to have a lot of stuff - not just hunting or fishing but also general stuff in life.

My goal in life is to have very little stuff beyond guns and books. I need to start getting rid of guns and give away some books.

Mike

You've been to our place. I don't think we are minimalists and certainly not excessive accumulators. The issue for us at this stage of life and retirement is downsizing the "stuff" when that "stuff" generally has some nostalgic attachment.

Our native art and craft collection is a good example. To anyone else that are baskets, and ivory carvings, and animal parts turned to art.

To us they are Anna Beaver, Margaret Wassillie, Samuel Fox and other's legacy. You just can't part with that easily. I'm sure eventually, unless we die suddenly, they will be gifted to friends and relatives.

I already promised Brett Barringer the Croc but he has to take it down.

Cheers
Jim

Jim:
You and Joyce do have a beautiful home and tastefully done. One question: why the life-sized statue, bronze bust, and portraits--all of Shootaway?
Just wondering?
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
I will bet there are very few minimalist with trophy rooms.

People who have a lot of trophies also will tend to have a lot of stuff - not just hunting or fishing but also general stuff in life.

My goal in life is to have very little stuff beyond guns and books. I need to start getting rid of guns and give away some books.

Mike

You've been to our place. I don't think we are minimalists and certainly not excessive accumulators. The issue for us at this stage of life and retirement is downsizing the "stuff" when that "stuff" generally has some nostalgic attachment.

Our native art and craft collection is a good example. To anyone else that are baskets, and ivory carvings, and animal parts turned to art.

To us they are Anna Beaver, Margaret Wassillie, Samuel Fox and other's legacy. You just can't part with that easily. I'm sure eventually, unless we die suddenly, they will be gifted to friends and relatives.

I already promised Brett Barringer the Croc but he has to take it down.

Cheers
Jim

Jim:
You and Joyce do have a beautiful home and tastefully done. One question: why the life-sized statue, bronze bust, and portraits--all of Shootaway?
Just wondering?
Cal

That is seriously funny!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I responded anonymously above but it raised a question in my mind regarding the interplay of trophy exports and tipping. If you are on a canned lion hunt in South Africa with Mark Sullivan in order to complete your Inner Circle Diamond Award and receive a World Hunting Award Ring and you are successful on the hunt but elect not to export the trophy, how does that affect the appropriate tip?