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Being a long time proponent that hunters go to Africa grossly overgunned it was good to see John Barsness in the Jan/Fen 2011 'Sports Afield' magazine agree with me. A good article based on some sound research and practical observations in the field. | ||
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Ah . . . my southerly exposed friend, all that proves is that you are wrong in published, but similarly mistaken, and unfortunately misguided, company. Only the incompetent are overgunned. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I must say I don't understand "overgunned" and the disdain that several here give to it. Dead is dead, its not "too dead" or "barely dead". If by that you mean having a weapon that is more than the minimum necessary to kill whatever expected game you will hunt, I'm not so sure that is bad. I haven't seen that article, but the website headline seems to indicate he's talking about plains game. Sure, I don't need a .375 300 grain TSX to kill a duiker, but it does work. Maybe in a game farm setting where you know there will not be one of the dangerous big critters you are OK, but when I hunt Africa, I want my light rifle to be capable of getting me out of a jam with whatever I might find. Yes, I know that's the PH's job, but I don't want to be totally inept or useless. So, when I hunt Africa or Alaska, I am carrying something I feel confident will stop a big bear or an elephant, even if I am not hunting that particular animal. I understand that there are lots of folks out there who can't shoot a .375 or bigger adequately to make a good shot on game. That's not an overgunned issue, that's an issue with someone being inadequately trained (usually) or physically unable to handle recoil, or possibly a bad rifle. This is not the same issue. If you are able to handle a .375 (and I don't think there are too many who cannot with work) it seems to be ideal in DG country. Do I carry that in the states for whitetail? No. I don't expect to run in to anything bigger than a black bear, which the .30-06 will kill quite well, thank you. | |||
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I would rather kill one to dead than not enough! I think to many people go around trying to prove that they are somting special just because they killed somthing with a pee shooter. If I hear one more person tell me how they could kill an ele with a 7X57 I will scream!!! | |||
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I've always used a 9.3x62 for my African hunting BUT I do consider it a suitable minimum in DG country and for good reason. | |||
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I wondered if that jackwagon got another writing job. I discontinued my rifle magazine suscription years ago becuse I found his humor offensive. Looks like he will piss off more readers with this latest drivel. I'm pretty glad I have not read it. | |||
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Wow, I've just been dissed by the AR community. Oh well. | |||
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The sad part is that this very true. Of all the hunters that go to Africa, very few of them can actually shoot large caliber rifles well. That is why I keep saying that the 375 is infinitely better for the majority of hunters going on safari. Sure, there are shooters who take teh time and trouble, and learn to shoot the larger rifles. But these are very few and far between. PHs keep telling us horror stories of clients arriving in the camp without having fired a single shot with their brand new rifle! All they say is "my gunsmith installed the scope and sighted it in. I don't need to shoot it". I have personally met some of these clients. One can only feel sorry for them, and the poor PH who has to put up with their bad shooting. | |||
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Both sides have valid points here. I vividly remember going to Alaska bring my 375 for moose and grizzly. There was a guy there that also brought a 375. He was terrified of the thing. Of course, it didn't help when I pointed out that my oldest son, who was 12 at the time, had just taken his first cape buffalo with my rifle about a month before. I am of the opinion that you can't kill them too dead. In dangerous game territory, I almost always carry my 416. I have killed everything from duiker to elephant with it. When something bad happens, particularly with elephants, no gun seems big enough to me. | |||
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These guys write for a living. They have deadlines. It is what it is. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Like a couple others and Saeed stated, depends on your definition of "over gunned". If you can't shoot it accurately....you're "over gunned". I know some guys that are "overgunned" with a .30-06.....  Mad Dog | |||
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Better thicken the skin for this forum. _______________________ | |||
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There are some very good reasons why guys take bigger calibers to Africa to hunt with. Here are a few: 1. Say you are plainsgame hunting, and kudu is on your list. The 60" kudu of a lifetime appears one evening, he's quartering away at a fairly good angle, standing only two steps from some very thick brush, and in 5 seconds he may step into the brush and be gone forever. If you're carrying a .270 would you feel comfortable taking that shot? Maybe not. If you're carrying a .375 that you're very proficient with, would you feel more comfortabe taking that shot? Yes. A larger caliber bullet will likely travel farther through the animal to a vital area. This is how an African PH explained it to me once, and it makes perfect sense. He said that's why most African PHs want you to bring a 30 caliber or larger rifle for plainsgame. They want the animals you shoot to be dead, not wounded. 2. In Africa, you pay the trophy fee on anything you bloody, whether you kill it or not. Do you do that on a self guided public land elk or deer hunt here at home? No. So being "sporting" or "undergunned" in Africa can get expensive. On a self guided hunt on Forest Service land in the Rocky Mountains, you can shoot and wound deer and elk all day long with a small caliber and it doesn't cost you a cent (although it wouldn't be ethical). Again, your African PH wants the animals you shoot to be dead, not wounded and having to waste time tracking them, possibly losing the animal and also losing valuable hunting time. Yeah, yeah, I know, shot placement is more important than caliber, but I think you understand what I'm trying to say. 3. If you're hunting PG in an area that has DG, then it's better to be safe than sorry. 4. It's fun to hunt in Africa with those big calibers (.375 and larger) and hearing them go boom! It's just one more thing about hunting in Africa that makes it a unique experience. | |||
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Do you think it fair to say that the average clients on an African Dangerous Game Safari are hard core hunters with ample trigger time and above average rifle skills? I seriously doubt this is the case, and it would not surprise me if the average client was on the opposite end of the scale. It probably is not beyond normal that the average client is someone who must rely upon the PH to clean up their mess. I seriously doubt the average client that a PH handles has the trigger time and skills of someone like Saeed, regardless the chosen chambering. As noted, some are completely over their head with a 30-06, much less anything larger. Flip side, I think it unfair to chide those who are well vetted with their personal chosen cartridges, based soley upon the lack of skill demonstrated by someone completely different. Best  | |||
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We are just guessing as to what percentage of African clients have the experience to handle the really big bores. I am speaking here of 416 and above. Perhaps our PH members can chime in with their estimates. That will probably provide a better estimate. 465H&H | |||
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I agree with Saeed that a 375 is enough. However I have taken two big guns to Africa a 458 Lott and a 450#2 N.E. double rifle. My African battery is a 375 Kimber Caprivi and the 450#2 now. The biggest problem I see with big bore shooters is that they do not shoot enough. I am a hunter and not a first time shooter, my ears prove that out. I am not a wannabe. When I first got my big rifle we did postings here 'elephant guns to the range' and a bunch of AR guys would show up and we would let fly at paper at elephant pics and buffalo pics. With my double I compete now at the Vintager's double gun Championships. I shoot my double all year long and know how it hits and how to reload fast this is all done with practice. So, if one wants to shoot a boomer one must practice. But accurate shooting outweighs, just shooting. 'Make the Shot' | |||
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Do you think it fair to say that the average clients on an African Dangerous Game Safari are hard core hunters with ample trigger time and above average rifle skills? Absolutely, positively NOT! That is my whole point. The real hunters KNOW what caliber they need, and they have learnt how to use it. Immaterial whether it is a 375 or 577.T.Rex. The vast majority, though, are only trying to make up for their bad shooting by taking a bigger caliber. As they have heard so much that a bad hit with a 500 is better than a bad hit with a 375. This, as we all know, is just plain rubbish. I probably shoot large bores more than most people. And I can shoot them well. But, for my type of hunting, I like to make life easy, and take just one rifle to use for everything I hunt. This has worked for me for many years, so I will continue to use it. | |||
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Amen.  My regular companion is the .375 H&H. From ele to Livingstone's Suni, it has consistently done the job. | |||
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My Model 70 has taken a kudu at 350 yards and a buffalo at 25. Need one say more ? USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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What Saeed said. Listen to "experience" not gun writer advice. | |||
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Having hunted in Zim for DG and SA for Plains Game it is a fact that Ph's and astounded and absolutely delighted when they get a "REAL" hunter with skills and experience, Many of them get very tired of being babysitters. This, among other things, is what wrong with African hunting/hunters these days. Men who need to prove or recapture their manhood. Men who hunt only a week or 2 all year someplace dangerous sounding because they have lots of bucks. Ever wonder why there are so many Jewelry and Fur coat dealers at the SCI show? Think Robert Ruark had to buy his woman a Big piece of Jewelry or a Fur coat before he could go to Africa? I went to SCI ONCE.... enjoyed the cartoons and left. | |||
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I could kill an elephant with a 7x57. NRA Life Member Gun Control - A theory espoused by some monumentally stupid people; who claim to believe, against all logic and common sense, that a violent predator who ignores the laws prohibiting them from robbing, raping, kidnapping, torturing and killing their fellow human beings will obey a law telling them that they cannot own a gun. | |||
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I bet every Ph out there does not have to take their clients to the range to know whether they are proficient shots. Every Ph I have ever hunted with can form a good opinion just by seeing how they handle their weapon,, loading, chambering,, "where the dang safety is!" they always watch me uncase my firearm and watch me handle and carry it to the range to know how far behind me to stand! I guess I am lucky because I am not recoil shy, I shoot a 375 and 416 rigby and I prefer the 416,, the only problem is the bigger the gun,, the more likely the ammo costs go up. If I am in Dangerous game country,, I will carry the 416,,,there is no such thing as overkill when you walk up on a buff with a snare on it's leg.. I never feel the gun go off,, and now like "Retreever" here on Ar,, I can't hear it either! I bet most here on Ar are shooters,, not tourists... you can make more money, you can not make more time | |||
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I think this is the bottom line...leave it to Bill to get to the quick. Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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One of my pet peeves is stories written by guys with a lack of experience on that topic. I didn't read that article, but let's just say a few years ago I was on a writer's hunt and an editor asked me how many buffalo I had shot. I think it was six. He whistled and said, "Boy you sure have a lot of money wrapped up in buffalo hunts." Six doesn't get you a nod on AR. I like Barsness; he is the real deal at hunting lots of stuff without a guide. But I am not sure how much DG he has hunted. Again, my comments about lack of experience are meant to be general in nature; you all have seen them: a writer shoots his first buffalo and we once again have to read about how "He looks at you like you owe him money." Say what you want about Safari, but at least we don't normally get lectured by guys with less experience than us. | |||
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Drwes, If I was a PH I wouldn't go out with a guy unless I saw him shoot. A rifle drill team looks impressive when they start twirling their rifles, but it doesn't mean they can shoot. I can't wait to shoot when I get to camp. One, I want to be perfectly zeroed. Two, I don't want any crap from a PH telling me such and such an animal is too far. Shooting my .416 at 200 yards off the sticks shows the PH I can hit something that far if we have to. | |||
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Great posts AZ! | |||
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Regarding the guy writing for a living... I have to read lots of material professionally. I expect this material to be accurate, and professional. If its a medical journal, would you accept "I'm a writer, I don't know squat about the subject!" or would you expect an expert opinion-(they may be wrong, but they have a reasoned basis for their opinion, and not without mentioning the context in which their advice is given) Sorry, but "writing for a living, it is what it is" is a pretty sorry excuse. And Will is supposed to be an expert author on the subject. Shame! In effect, a hunting magazine is a specialist journal about your recreation. I don't think the gearheads here would accept someone trying to tell them that all they need in a sports car is a toyota camry. Why are the outdoor sports media so populated by folks who don't even try and give an intelligent argument, but rather rehash a variant of the .30-06 vs .270 wars yet again? If the outdoor media is unwilling to police itself (Zumbo, gunwhoring, and things of that ilk) why should we support it at all? Why should we pay higher prices for goods and services so that these "infomercials" are made? This is one thing I really appreciate in these forums- experience, without money-grubbing by all the writers, and those who have a financial interest are up front with their point of view mostly. | |||
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Sorry CR, but have to disagree about Zumbo. Sure he made a mistake but he has corrected it in public. He is going out of his way to help wounded vets. I greatly admire him for that, just like I admire CB's service to our country. Unlike the writer who probably shot more buffalo than any other (and whose opinion and military service I value) Zumbo doesn't support USO Outfitters. For the life of me, I don't know why so many writers do; maybe USO does their tag drawing free. Who knows. All I know is that USO sued the State of Arizona some years ago. If I recall correctly, that lawsuit resulted in many non-residents getting tags, Zumbo included. Zumbo turned in his tag and refused to use it. I was thinking about this subject while I was taking a shower. I am not sure we know who is paying for what any more. Boddington wrote that he paid for his desert sheep hunt and he has claimed to have paid for others, but he doesn't say. Writers discuss the high cost of tags, etc, insuating they pay for them, but hunts paid for by the industry are paid by others. For example, I doubt CB paid a dime for his Kri Kri ibex hunt. I go on one or two free hunts a year and I know I don't pay a dime, but I say so in the story. Ron Spomer and Tom Huggler took a trip to Alaska many years ago on a DIY caribou and who knows what else adventure. I still remember that story and told Ron a few months ago how much I enjoyed it. Those kinds of stories used to populate Outdoor Life and Field & Stream. Like I said, it would be a better for all of us if we understood who paid for what. I am writing a story about a long range rifle. Barrel manufacturers are all offering me free barrels if I use theirs. I have taken them in the past, but I no longer do this. I am going to pay half their going rate and say so in the story. To be sure, I am not paying full price, but I am going to say so in print. Hell, I can afford it. But one thing I agree with you CR: the internet is changing is a lot. First it was newspapers...what is next?? | |||
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Thanks Rick; was in ABQ today. Brrr. Going back on Thursday but it is for business. | |||
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Az,,,I absolutely agree about the shooting part, first, I always want to know exactly where that bullet is going to land,, last trip to The Land of Oz,,, 5 days in transit,, sighting my rifle,, it shot one inch high at 100 yards,, before I left it was dead on,,, maybe no big thing to some,, but it is to me. I check all my rifles before I hunt,, I have my own land and range so it is easy if I am home,, plus fun. Anyone who can't shoot I don't want in the truck with me,, My point was,, the guys that hunt everyday,,, they got a pretty good idea if the guy is a tourist or shooter when he handles the gun. I have seen guys fire off rounds loading and unloading their weapons,,, that scares the crap out of me and I don't want to be around those folks,, just not safe or fun. I had bad feelings about them by they way they handled the gun, like it was the first time they had touched them. you can make more money, you can not make more time | |||
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He can't correct it. He said...therefore deep down...bet he believes it...that does it for me. Now that said...I think he is basically a good person. But is this day and time with sound bytes everywhere he hurt us. And...as I said...I beleive he meant what he said...which puts me and him on opposite sides of the fence. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Back origianl topic: I have told this story before but here it goes again: Have a female aquaintance that was taken as a guest on a hunt to Tanzania many years ago. She did have a license and was planning to hunt but the whole thing was not her idea and she was going mostly as a guest. Anyway...she lives on ranch and has a .308 Win M 70 that she shoots and carrys a lot. She took that rifle with her. To make a long story short...she shot a cape buff with that .308...one shot through the chest. Buff ran off like they always do...went 30-40 yards...laid down and died...no other lead in him. Now...anytime any one says they are going to shoot a buff...she just says no big deal...they die just like a white-tail deer if you put the bullet in the right place. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Could someone clarify please? Several here have made reference to Jim Zumbo's "mistake"...are you referring to his public comments regarding "black rifles" a few years back? | |||
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that is a yes for me ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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And the reason he 'corrected it' is because the whole hunting world pointed their collective finger at him and said traitor. To address a previous question I asked last year; What percentage of Africa PH clients get their hunts for free as corporate gifts? Answer, 40-60% So it is no wonder they wouldn't know a muzzle from a breech. | |||
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Flip side, I think it unfair to chide those who are well vetted with their personal chosen cartridges, based soley upon the lack of skill demonstrated by someone completely different. Agreed, I for one am a little tired of the thinly veilled assumption that I can't shoot, based on the record of others that couldn't. Can I judge the shooting ability of all PHs, based on the fact that I have never seen one shoot at a target? How do we know that the "backup" that is so often talked about even exists?
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No disrespect intended, just a little humor and a pointed observation, which I will repeat: Only the incompetent are overgunned. Just because a man can shoot a .30-06, or even a .375, DOES NOT mean he can shoot a .500, or even a .458, without proper tutoring and practice. Still, a man who can't shoot a big bore is not necessarily "overgunned." For most of us, incompetence at a task can be remedied by adequate training and practice. I like to think that I can drive my passenger sedan pretty well. But I sure as hell would need a little training time and practice before I would be comfortable getting behind the wheel and taking a spin in a Formula 1 or Indy car! Of course, anyone who would try doing that, or would take a big bore on safari after dangerous game, without first undergoing proper training and putting in lots of practice time, is not only incompetent - he's foolish as well. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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