Also, a lot of North American game didn't evolve in North America--and even if it did, evolved alongside predators that don't exist anymore.

Elk evolved in Eurasia, only emigrating to North America fairly recently. They were preyed upon not just by wolves and brown/grizzly bears, but Siberian tigers. And elk are just as tough as any African plains game.

Pronghorns are much faster than any African antelope. This is because they evolved alongside a North American cheetah that may have been even a little faster than the African cheetah. And anybody who has seen many pronghorns shot know that they can go and go and go with devastating wounds.

Exactly why some animals are tougher than others may not have anything to do with present predators, or weather patterns, or anything else.

+1

quote:

from Sports Afield article: “Charlie Sonu took 14 animals with 12 shots using a 338 Winchester Magnum on his very first safari, including blue wildebeest, gemsbok, kudu, and this fine waterbuck. Cartridges like the 338 are very effective—but only if you can shoot them well.”

I think this quote above just about sums up what John was trying to get across! The rifle mentioned in the quote, which was the caption under a photo of Mr. Sonu, and his waterbuck. The 338 Win Mag is certainly not a large rifle, but if a hunter can’t shoot it well it may as well be a 600NE . This rifle was not OVER-GUNED for the species he was hunting, but to many it may be over-gunned for the shooter. Hence the comment by M.R. “Only the incompetent are over-gunned!”

quote:

from Sports Afield article: It’s also an ingrained American tradition to shoot deer behind the shoulder to avoid ruining meat”

The above quote is just another of the facts that most new client hunters do not know where the vitals are in lots of the African animals, and assume that just behind the shoulder he is placing a bullet squarely through the middle of both lungs from a side shot. So he is not necessarily a bad shot, or over gunned, he just doesn’t know where the bullet should go, and may have put it where he intended. This is, IMO, why most come home with the idea that even the smallest animal in Africa is made of steel. Certainly there are those who have bought into this misconception so much that they go out and buy a rifle that they are afraid of, and do make bad shots because of the recoil, and that is the guy that is over-gunned, not for the animal he is shooting, but for his ability.

The positioning of the vitals is not always where one thinks in the case of all the ungulates in Africa. With some most of the lungs are behind the shoulders, and on things like lion the heart one would think would be place about where it is on a deer or pronghorn, but it is very far back when compared to most grass eaters, or American bear. If the client can shoot his rifle, then the screw-up is not the size of the gun, but the size of his education on African animals!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

from Sports Afield article: “Charlie Sonu took 14 animals with 12 shots using a 338 Winchester Magnum on his very first safari, including blue wildebeest, gemsbok, kudu, and this fine waterbuck. Cartridges like the 338 are very effective—but only if you can shoot them well.”

I think this quote above just about sums up what John was trying to get across! The rifle mentioned in the quote, which was the caption under a photo of Mr. Sonu, and his waterbuck. The 338 Win Mag is certainly not a large rifle, but if a hunter can’t shoot it well it may as well be a 600NE . This rifle was not OVER-GUNED for the species he was hunting, but to many it may be over-gunned for the shooter. Hence the comment by M.R. “Only the incompetent are over-gunned!”

quote:

from Sports Afield article: It’s also an ingrained American tradition to shoot deer behind the shoulder to avoid ruining meat”

The above quote is just another of the facts that most new client hunters do not know where the vitals are in lots of the African animals, and assume that just behind the shoulder he is placing a bullet squarely through the middle of both lungs from a side shot. So he is not necessarily a bad shot, or over gunned, he just doesn’t know where the bullet should go, and may have put it where he intended. This is, IMO, why most come home with the idea that even the smallest animal in Africa is made of steel. Certainly there are those who have bought into this misconception so much that they go out and buy a rifle that they are afraid of, and do make bad shots because of the recoil, and that is the guy that is over-gunned, not for the animal he is shooting, but for his ability.

The positioning of the vitals is not always where one thinks in the case of all the ungulates in Africa. With some most of the lungs are behind the shoulders, and on things like lion the heart one would think would be place about where it is on a deer or pronghorn, but it is very far back when compared to most grass eaters, or American bear. If the client can shoot his rifle, then the screw-up is not the size of the gun, but the size of his education on African animals!

Mac,

Actually the heart and lungs are in exactly the same place in the chest cavity of a leopard or lion as they are in a deer or elk. What is different in these cats is that the shoulder is much farther forward then in ungulates. So if you hit a cat right up close to the shoulder you are hitting the forward edge of the lungs and missing the heart all together.
465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
[Mac,

Actually the heart and lungs are in exactly the same place in the chest cavity of a leopard or lion as they are in a deer or elk. What is different in these cats is that the shoulder is much farther forward then in ungulates. So if you hit a cat right up close to the shoulder you are hitting the forward edge of the lungs and missing the heart all together.
465H&H

465H&H techniclly you are right of course, but we are talking about the unschooled shooting tight against the shoulder of the lion expecting to hit the heart! He ain't goona hit it with that hold! Because the unschooled thinks the heart is just like a deer, right against the back of shoulder and just above the elbow, he shoots too far forward. IMO his shooting is blamed and that is not the case it is his education.

quote:

took 14 animals with 12 shots using a 338 Winchester Magnum

Were 2 pregnant or did he have 2 magic bullets...sounds like JFK analysis.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

took 14 animals with 12 shots using a 338 Winchester Magnum

Were 2 pregnant or did he have 2 magic bullets...sounds like JFK analysis.

I'm sure it was shoot throughs killing two with one shot. I really don't know, but that is what the caption says at the top of page 85!

John Barsness is one of my all time favorite writers, and the best thing about him is he leaves out the fluff, and the haucking of products. On top of that he speaks from a position of experience, a little like old Skeeter he gets down to the "huntin an shooten"!

shoot the biggest gun you can shoot well. Most american rifles are too light for heavy calibers so some poor guy buys a new 416 in a light gun and gets kicked and assumes it is too much gun. If the same guy would put some wt in the gun he would find that it kick no worse than his beloved 300 but brings down aftican game with much more authority. Americans that climb mountains all day want light guns and do not realize the value of a little weight

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Of all the hunters that go to Africa, very few of them can actually shoot large caliber rifles well.

That is why I keep saying that the 375 is infinitely better for the majority of hunters going on safari.

Sure, there are shooters who take teh time and trouble, and learn to shoot the larger rifles.

But these are very few and far between.

PHs keep telling us horror stories of clients arriving in the camp without having fired a single shot with their brand new rifle!

All they say is "my gunsmith installed the scope and sighted it in. I don't need to shoot it".

.

couldnt put it better.
seen a 14yr old kill a Eland with a well placed shot with a243 and lost a steenbuck wounded by a 375. placement/penetration is more important than power
but what do i know

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
Wow, I've just been dissed by the AR community. Oh well.

Not to worry, only a matter of time till it happens to everyone here!

Life goes on.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Of all the hunters that go to Africa, very few of them can actually shoot large caliber rifles well.

That is why I keep saying that the 375 is infinitely better for the majority of hunters going on safari.

The above is echoed by none other than Harry Manners.

Here is a piece written by Brian March:

"Harry Manners and Wally Johnson began elephant hunting in partnership in Mozambique in 1937, and both used off-the-shelf Winchesters (Harry owned four during his lifetime, one of which having a ‘bull-barrel’, which he discarded on the grounds of it being too heavy), both used only Kynoch 300-grain solids, and both averred that this rifle/cartridge combination was all that any professional ivory hunter ever needed. They were both expert shots and could place their bullets accurately from any angle for brain-shots on elephant, but both used shoulder shots when these were convenient, alleging that this was the largest and safest target. Harry shot The Monarch of Murrapa (185 and 183 pounds a side and number four in Rowland Ward’s Records of Big Game) with a single 300-grain .375 solid in the shoulder (the full story of this hunt being told in Harry’s autobiography, Kambaku, recently republished by Rowland Ward Publication, Johannesburg).

When ivory hunting was stopped in Mozambique in the early 1950s in favour of safari hunting, Harry and Wally entered the safari field, both still only using their .375s, and I first got to know them when visiting Moçambique Safarilandia’s Savé concessions at the owner’s invitation in 1965. Harry retired unscathed to Skuzuza in Kruger National Park after Mozambique’s independence, where I often visited him, while Wally, who had earlier been gored by a buffalo his .375 failed to stop, joined Safari South in Botswana, for whom I also hunted and where we renewed our friendship. In spite of Wally’s mishap with the buffalo, both he and Harry went to their graves asserting that a .375 H&H Magnum with 300-grain solid bullets was all a professional hunter needed for the hunting of elephant."

With our modern FN Solids of today, the 375 H&H is just so much more gun.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
" . . . Wally, who had earlier been gored by a buffalo his .375 failed to stop, joined Safari South in Botswana, for whom I also hunted and where we renewed our friendship. In spite of Wally’s mishap with the buffalo, both he and Harry went to their graves asserting that a .375 H&H Magnum with 300-grain solid bullets was all a professional hunter needed for the hunting of elephant."

If I read this correctly, a .375 is all that's needed for elephant, yet it can't be relied on to stop a buffalo?

Hmmm . . .

Now we're starting to get into an "undergunned" discussion.

I stand corrected, but seem to remember that Harry Manners shot more than a 1000 elephant, and one mis-hap as a percentage will make for a good discussion around a camp fire with harry if he was only still alive.

Warrior

I've held off as long as I can on this one. To repeat what Saeed said, very few hunters who go to Africa can shoot larger caliber rifles well. To this, I include the .375.

Why do so many hunters feel they need a .375 to hunt on farms in South Africa or Namibia where the largest game animal they might encounter is an eland, especially when the biggest caliber they have ever have fired might be a .30-06, which develops only about half the foot pounds of free recoil as a .375?

A .375 is not needed for the kudu, gemsbok, waterbuck, wildebeest, blesbok, impala, warthog and zebra that are on the menu for a first safari for most hunters. It's great if they can shoot a .375 well, but few can. They indeed are overgunned with a .375 if they cannot shoot it accurately..

As for African antelope up to eland being tougher than North America's, I disagree. Place the proper bullet in the proper place, and they die just like ours.

Bill Quimby

Bill, a few thoughts below in red.

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
I've held off as long as I can on this one. To repeat what Saeed said, very few hunters who go to Africa can shoot larger caliber rifles well. To this, I include the .375.

Of course bigger is better only if a man can handle it. So it's good advice to tell a man to stick with a .375 if that's the most he can handle. But none of us who can handle more gun should let those who can't determine how we behave.

Why do so many hunters feel they need a .375 to hunt on farms in South Africa or Namibia where the largest game animal they might encounter is an eland, especially when the biggest caliber they have ever have fired might be a .30-06, which develops only about half the foot pounds of free recoil as a .375?

That's a bit of a straw man, don't you think? Of course a .375 isn't needed for farm hunting under such circumstances. But it's as good as anything else, and better than most, at killing such animals.

A .375 is not needed for the kudu, gemsbok, waterbuck, wildebeest, blesbok, impala, warthog and zebra that are on the menu for a first safari for most hunters. It's great if they can shoot a .375 well, but few can. They indeed are overgunned with a .375 if they cannot shoot it accurately.

I disagree that few can shoot a .375 well. My wife can shoot a .375 well, and she's 5'1" tall. Most who can't shoot one well are just incompetent to the task, and incompetence can often be overcome through proper training and practice. As to when a man is overgunned, I am in 100% agreement.

As for African antelope up to eland being tougher than North America's, I disagree. Place the proper bullet in the proper place, and they die just like ours.

I don't measure toughness that way. Sure they all fall down and die with a well-placed shot. But all of us miss from time to time. It's a more interesting question to me whether African animals can survive longer after being badly or marginally hit. Put another way, whether they are more tenacious of life. I tend to think so, but I may be wrong.

Bill Quimby

I agree completely that a .375 is not needed for even the largest PG (Eland). Personally, I shoot a .300wm for all PG and have over 50 African species taken with it. I have used the Swift A-Frame as loaded by Remington or Superior Ammunition since 1999 and used the Nosler partition prior to that. I have Superior load some solids in the .300wm for the small boys so as not to tear them up.

I do not like the .375 for Ele nor Buff and have shot most of my Buff with the .416Rem using a Swift A-Frame followed by solids when needed. Two of my Buff dropped to the shot and did not require follow-ups with solids. Many Buff hunters believe follow-ups may be made effectively with modern premium softs and that solids are simply no longer needed, except on Ele.

Use enough gun, and the .375 isn't it. Read Bill Stewarts latest book "Elephant and Elephant Guns" for a further relevant discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I agree completely that a .375 is not needed for even the largest PG (Eland). Personally, I shoot a .300wm for all PG and have over 50 African species taken with it. I have used the Swift A-Frame as loaded by Remington or Superior Ammunition since 1999 and used the Nosler partition prior to that. I have Superior load some solids in the .300wm for the small boys so as not to tear them up.

I do not like the .375 for Ele nor Buff and have shot most of my Buff with the .416Rem using a Swift A-Frame followed by solids when needed. Two of my Buff dropped to the shot and did not require follow-ups with solids. Many Buff hunters believe follow-ups may be made effectively with modern premium softs and that solids are simply no longer needed, except on Ele.

Use enough gun, and the .375 isn't it. Read Bill Stewarts latest book "Elephant and Elephant Guns" for a further relevant discussion.

LH, I absolutely agree that the 375 H&H is not “NEEDED” for hunting anything in the game farms of South Africa, but few who post here hunt game farms at all, with any rifle. Most here always hunt areas where dangerous game also exists, and most are hunting at least one dangerous species, and use something more suited for the DGR, but the light rifle needs to be legal for the dangerous game as well. In this case one usually takes two rifles. I’m not aware of anyplace where anything smaller than 9.3 is legal for Buffalo. Most places the .375 is minimum legal caliber for buffalo and elephant.

Still the shooter who hunts only game farms and shooter shoots his 375 H&H well there is no reason he shouldn’t use it if he wants. If however if he can’t shoot it well then, and only then he is over gunned! On that I agree!

If a person is hunting in areas where there are Buffalo, and elephant he will normally have a larger rifle than a 375H&H, as his primary rifle for both the buffalo, and the elephant.

However if he also wants to take a few so-called plains game and takes a smaller rifle for that purpose, then the choice is his, as to what he chooses.

IMO, if I’m hunting in such an area which I always am, where you never know what you will run into around the next bend in the dry river bed, then my choice will be a light rifle that is at least capable, and legal for the bad boys if I happen to run into him while carrying my light rifle. Anything less is poor planning IMO. Also if your big rifles goes South on you, your light rifle can finish the safari if it is not only adequate, but legal as well even though it is light for the purpose. I would say the 375H&H is a real candidate for that job. Additionally a person who want to take mostly plains game but may take on buffalo, a 375H&H bolt rifle with a good scope is hard to beat for the one rifle for everything. Not perfect for plains game but at least legal for the buff, and will shoot flat enough to hunt most plains game at the average distances you shoot in Africa.

Your little 300Win Mag may kill plains game very well, but it sure isn’t as good for the buffalo, and is not legal anyplace I’m aware of in Africa for buffalo! My light rifle will always be legal to fill in for a broken DGR if it needs to!

............................

quote:

Originally posted by JohnBarsness:
First, I'd like to thank EVERYBODY who posted on this thread, both the relatively few that actually read the article, plus the many who had very firm comments even though they had no idea what the article was about.

Publicity is always good! I am sure SPORTS AFIELD thanks you for the same reason. Their circulation continues to rise rapidly, even during these economic times, even though they continue to run articles by professional writers with deadlines.

I especially liked my old friend Outdoor Writer's comment. Very true!

John Barsness

FWIW, I enjoy Mr. Barsness' articles, including the one referred to early on. His article on the 9.3 BS cartridge that he made up (Rifle Magazine) got me interested in 9.3 caliber and other heavy, slower velocity cartridges.

I dumped my Sports Afield subscription a long time ago when it had more articles in line with Men's Health that hunting. The resurrected magazine has been fantastic. It covers everything we yak about here: international travel tips, fine guns, international hunting, etc. I appreciate that he is writing for SA.

Mike:

My point is that not everyone can handle the .375's nearly 40 foot pounds of free energy, especially when they are accustomed to shooting something like a .30-06 with 20 foot pounds or less of recoil.

It has been my experience that smaller-framed people, such as your wife, can handle recoil much better than the largest men. At 6 foot 4, 300 pounds, the recoil from the .300 and .338 Win Mag is about the most I am comfortable with.

Your wife will rock or bend or get pushed with the .375's recoil ... as an immovable object, I get pounded.

And don't kid yourself, 40 foot pounds of recoil is not light.

Sure, I can shoot a .375, .416, .458 or what have you, and I have taken large game with each. But I don't shoot them as well as my 7 mag.

It has nothing to do with my competence or lack of practice. In fact, I can think of no better way to develop a horrible flinch than to overdo practice with a .375 and larger caliber.

I will continue to urge my friends to leave their .375s behind and use their favorite .270, 7 mm mag, or .30 caliber deer rifle when all they will encounter will be plains game up to and including eland, unless they are totally comfortable with their .375s.

MacD37:

I agree that a .375 is the legal and sensible minimum for large, dangerous game. But the majority of hunters going to Africa today, especially those going for the first time, will hunt on farms in South Africa or Namibia where the only dangerous game are leopards, if that, and only a few will hunt them. They simply do not need a .375 or larger rifle.

Incidentally, I've hunted 22 times in six countries down there, including places with elephants, lions and buffalo around what seemed like every tree, but I still enjoy hunting small antelope and warthogs on the larger game farms in South Africa.

Bill Quimby

I too think too many people go hunting with something they can not shoot well but some book or some pal says you gotta have this loudnboomer if you are going to Africa.
I never shot an elephant but if I were to go elephant hunting I would take my Dakota 416 Rem Mag with solids.
I have had the pleasure of shooting a buffalo and I did shoot him with my 416 RM using Barnes X 350 grns. that I loaded. It was one shot and very final.
Most of my large game has been taken with 30/06 and 180 Nosler Partitions be it Africa, elk, moose or deer. I have great confidence in the five 30/06's I own as well as my 9.3x62 a caliber I wish I had come across much earlier in my hunting career.
I have taken a number of African animals with 300 Wby. a caliber I was not a fan of until I used it in Africa.
If you are armed with a 30 caliber something I feel like you will be able to safely hunt the world. Elgin Gates pretty much proved that during his career. Granted there would be times it would be better to have a bigger stick but that would be elephant or polar bear are two that come to mind. Lots of elephants killed with some brand of 308 semi auto in the hands of some soldier. The debate goes on and on and....

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
I've held off as long as I can on this one. To repeat what Saeed said, very few hunters who go to Africa can shoot larger caliber rifles well. To this, I include the .375.

Why do so many hunters feel they need a .375 to hunt on farms in South Africa or Namibia where the largest game animal they might encounter is an eland, especially when the biggest caliber they have ever have fired might be a .30-06, which develops only about half the foot pounds of free recoil as a .375?

A .375 is not needed for the kudu, gemsbok, waterbuck, wildebeest, blesbok, impala, warthog and zebra that are on the menu for a first safari for most hunters. It's great if they can shoot a .375 well, but few can. They indeed are overgunned with a .375 if they cannot shoot it accurately..

As for African antelope up to eland being tougher than North America's, I disagree. Place the proper bullet in the proper place, and they die just like ours.

Bill Quimby

An enlightened post. I think a lot of hunters buy a .375H&H for Africa and plains game because it is culturally re-inforced that that is the calibre to have.

I have shot only three calibers in Africa:

7mm Rem Mag (with 150 Nosler BTs no less) for gemsbok, red hartebeeste, zebra, springbok, kudu and jackal.

.338 Win Mag for kudu, gemsbok, sable, topi, waterbuck, Lichtenstein's hartebeeste, wildebeeste, civet, warthog, impala, common and bohor reedbuck, zebra, hyena, leopard, lion, and who knows what else.

.416 for hippo, eland, buffalo, and elephant

Get this: between the .375 and the .30-06 I have taken just one head of game: a whitetail doe (with an 06). For most hunting in NA I like a .308 for deer and black bear and a .338 for elk, moose, griz, etc. In Africa I like a .338 Win. I would not hesitate to whack a buff with it if I had to. If I had to take only one gun, it would probably be a .375, but why not a .375 RUM?

I shoot several times per week but I only shoot my .416 for a few months before I go to Africa. Why get pounded?

In December I think I will try a .300 RUM and a .416 Rem.

The other interesting thing is the shift in caliber preferences shown by PHs in CB's two editions of Safari Rifles. There definitely is a shift to bigger calibers.

MacD37,

I've hunted 8 or 9 countries in sub-Saharan Africa and taken a decent number of DG as well as PG. I don't hunt game farms and I always take PG even when DG is my primary license. I've never been told I can't bring two rifles in the hunting vehicle. I learned the hard way not to give my primary rifle to a tracker, even when they are insistent on carrying it. I will give a bearer my PG rifle to carry while I carry my big bore, which is either a .416Rem, .458Lott or a new 500 NE. I have killed PG and DG with the .416 and suggest it is a much better choice than a .375.

BTW, I have a .375H&H, with which I took my first Ele some dozen years ago. I immediately began a search for a bigger rifle and the .375 has never gone to Africa again. I just don't like the .375 - too big for PG and too small for DG - and strongly believe a .416 is a much better one gun option which will do everything better than a .375. But that's just me.

As to those who cannot handle recoil, I have no solution other than to suggest they stick to plains game.

L H I'm sure the 416 solves all your needs, and that is good for you! However, every person who pays for a Safari is allowed to choose his battery as long as they are legal for what he is hunting.

Having said that, I like to take two rifles when hunting in a far away land, and in Africa I never hunt plains game only. My big rifle is a 470NE double rifle, and since the plains game is simply filler to fill out the days I'm left with after my primary is downed with the large rifle. If however my large rifle or infact my light rifle fails to show up, or the ammo is lost for either I can still do the Safari legally with my light rifle, being either a 9.3, or 375 H&H depending on where, and what I'm hunting. This is why my 375rifles all have working iron sights, and scopes in quality Quick-detach rings and bases, so they can go where I need to go, and do what I need to do, if my 470NE is lost or broken.

You see, it's a personal thing, much like your choices! IMO the choice I have made covers more bases when Mr Murphy's law rears it's ugly head far from home and gunsmiths!


Good day L R and good hunting!

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
MacD37,

I've hunted 8 or 9 countries in sub-Saharan Africa and taken a decent number of DG as well as PG. I don't hunt game farms and I always take PG even when DG is my primary license. I've never been told I can't bring two rifles in the hunting vehicle. I learned the hard way not to give my primary rifle to a tracker, even when they are insistent on carrying it. I will give a bearer my PG rifle to carry while I carry my big bore, which is either a .416Rem, .458Lott or a new 500 NE. I have killed PG and DG with the .416 and suggest it is a much better choice than a .375.

BTW, I have a .375H&H, with which I took my first Ele some dozen years ago. I immediately began a search for a bigger rifle and the .375 has never gone to Africa again. I just don't like the .375 - too big for PG and too small for DG - and strongly believe a .416 is a much better one gun option which will do everything better than a .375. But that's just me.

As to those who cannot handle recoil, I have no solution other than to suggest they stick to plains game.

Lionhunter,

I don't fully understand. The 375 is too big for plains game but the 416 isn't?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
However, every person who pays for a Safari is allowed to choose his battery as long as they are legal for what he is hunting.

Thank God for that Mac!!

Why is there never a comment about someone being "overskilled" or practicing shooting too much, when quite a bit of African hunting will be close and maybe not require pinpoint accuracy? You don't need to able to shoot "that" well...

It's all BS, you can never shoot too well or use a caliber that is too large for trophy hunting (risks of damaging capes of tiny antelope and your skill with that rifle aside).

There are many great points made here by many of the contributors to this post.

You may get few opportunities on your hunt and you will want to be able to take that opportunity without wondering whether you, the chosen caliber and the chosen bullet are up to it. Generally that means you err on the side of too much and not too little when it comes to choosing your gear.

I think Terry Wieland wrote some years ago and quoted someone else, I don't recall who... he was talking of having been at the Rigby booth at a show and having seen someone come by, talk of how great the new Rigbys and big bores were, but ending the converstaion by saying, "but no-one really needs anything bigger than a 375". The point Wieland made is that you need to choose your rifle for what works not when everything goes right, but rather when everything goes wrong!

There are limitations to that, our recoil sensitivity, budgets and other practical issues, but that is the point and in trophy hunting you want further leeway on the lower percentage shot, certainly on the plainsgame.

(QUOTE)
Lionhunter,

I don't fully understand. The 375 is too big for plains game but the 416 isn't?

465H&H[/QUOTE]

Don't be silly. I never said anything about the .416 being a good PG rifle. What I said was "...a .416 is a much better one gun option...".
And I stand by that. I also said the .416 will do anything a .375 will, but will do it better. Ideally one would have a dedicated PG rifle as part of a two gun battery where the other rifle is something bigger than a .375 for DG. That's how I roll. I have never done safari with only one gun, even when hunting exclusively with handguns, nor would I.

I know my position on the .375 is contrary to most, some of whom have little or no experience in the bush, but I also know many experienced safari hunters who believe exactly as I do. You would be surprised at how many hunters and writers who extol the virtues of the .375 will admit in private venues that a .416 will work better in all cases.

I really could care less what anyone uses as an African rifle. However, I believe many first, second or third time safari hunters buy a .375 because of all the hype, only to find out later they would be better off with something larger. That's what happened to me many years ago before my first safari. Whatever anyone chooses does need to be shot extensively - say a minimum of 100 rounds - and confidence and skill achieved prior to coming out on safari.

quote:

Don't be silly. I never said anything about the .416 being a good PG rifle. What I said was "...a .416 is a much better one gun option...".
And I stand by that. I also said the .416 will do anything a .375 will, but will do it better.

Kicks more! And that is really the jest of this thread. Getting tpeople to shoot rifles they can shoot well.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
(QUOTE)
Lionhunter,

I don't fully understand. The 375 is too big for plains game but the 416 isn't?

465H&H

Don't be silly. I never said anything about the .416 being a good PG rifle. What I said was "...a .416 is a much better one gun option...".
And I stand by that. I also said the .416 will do anything a .375 will, but will do it better. Ideally one would have a dedicated PG rifle as part of a two gun battery where the other rifle is something bigger than a .375 for DG. That's how I roll. I have never done safari with only one gun, even when hunting exclusively with handguns, nor would I.

I know my position on the .375 is contrary to most, some of whom have little or no experience in the bush, but I also know many experienced safari hunters who believe exactly as I do. You would be surprised at how many hunters and writers who extol the virtues of the .375 will admit in private venues that a .416 will work better in all cases.

I really could care less what anyone uses as an African rifle. However, I believe many first, second or third time safari hunters buy a .375 because of all the hype, only to find out later they would be better off with something larger. That's what happened to me many years ago before my first safari. Whatever anyone chooses does need to be shot extensively - say a minimum of 100 rounds - and confidence and skill achieved prior to coming out on safari.[/QUOTE]



I wasn't being silly but you on the other hand appear to be inconsistent. No, you didn't say the 416 was a good PG rifle. What you did say was that the .375 - "is too big for PG and too small for DG" then you said concerning the 416 " which will do everything better than a .375". Everything to me includes both PG and DG.

If you or any one else choices to use a 416 for PG or DG, more power to you. I can't and won't critize your decision. I was just struck by the contridiction in your thinking and wanted it clarified.

465H&H

quote:

If I am in Dangerous game country,, I will carry the 416,,,there is no such thing as overkill when you walk up on a buff with a snare on it's leg..

Most here agree North American hunters buy the bigger calibers becasue they are going to Africa and they read all the,,"minimum weapon is 375 etc" info. And I think good advice to take. I still shoot a 30-06 I got for Christmas in 1962,, still shoots good, spent many years shooting a 7 mag,, then my gun of choice went to 7 ultra mag,,,we hunt wide open country so long range seemed to be an issue. I have seen several deer in the 6-700 yard range that I wanted to shoot but I never had,, not good ethical shooting for me and I don't think I ever shoot much over 200 yards.I have found that because of hunting overseas with the 375 and 416 rigby,,,we use them a great deal here in Texas,, for sure overkill, but it keeps you in practice with the bigger calibers. With 12 month of wild hog hunting available,,, it is loads of fun to take the bigger guns out and they are really bad pig medicine. Why save them just for Africa? We use them here for pig control and it is a real blast! Like everyone says ,,shoot what you are good with,, so ,, we shoot em here and when over the big pond and especially in DG country,, the Rigby will be in my hands.

In my neck of the woods the various .375 are considered good moose medicine.
And I see no problem in carrying one in Africa hunting PG.

Guess my 308 win or 35 Whelen would have done just as good on PG...perhaps.
But what the heck, the .375 are more fun to shoot and bucks grass and bush better.

It's beyond me why anyone will shell out forty or fifty grand for a full bag hunt and not take the time to become completely proficient with the rifle(s) he intends to hunt. I do not understand that type of convoluted thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
It's beyond me why anyone will shell out forty or fifty grand for a full bag hunt and not take the time to become completely proficient with the rifle(s) he intends to hunt. I do not understand that type of convoluted thinking.

There is an easy answer to that question. Some people have more money than good sense.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
MacD37,

I've hunted 8 or 9 countries in sub-Saharan Africa and taken a decent number of DG as well as PG. I don't hunt game farms and I always take PG even when DG is my primary license. I've never been told I can't bring two rifles in the hunting vehicle. I learned the hard way not to give my primary rifle to a tracker, even when they are insistent on carrying it. I will give a bearer my PG rifle to carry while I carry my big bore, which is either a .416Rem, .458Lott or a new 500 NE. I have killed PG and DG with the .416 and suggest it is a much better choice than a .375.

BTW, I have a .375H&H, with which I took my first Ele some dozen years ago. I immediately began a search for a bigger rifle and the .375 has never gone to Africa again. I just don't like the .375 - too big for PG and too small for DG - and strongly believe a .416 is a much better one gun option which will do everything better than a .375. But that's just me.

As to those who cannot handle recoil, I have no solution other than to suggest they stick to plains game.

Lionhunter,

I don't fully understand. The 375 is too big for plains game but the 416 isn't?

465H&H

I think the problem here is everyone is forgetting what the article was all about! The jist of it was, IMO, people taking rifles they couldn't shoot well, and as a result not being able to utilize them for good bullet placement. All that when something smaller would do the job anyway!

IMO, the above is caused by folks who are most times new to Africa, and wanting an "AFRICAN" rifle for thier first trip! Most of these guys are deer hunters, and most consider a 30-06 to be a big bore rifle, yet are taking a 375H&H rifle to africa for a farm hunt in RSA!

Again haveing said that, My opinion is, that if the guy going to Africa who takes a 375H&H bolt rifle, and he can shoot it, we all know that a 375 H&H is also NOT a big bore rifle, but is a very good chambering for just about anything from American elk to cape buffalo, and even elephant if, and I mean a BIG "IF", he can shoot it porperly. In that case with that shooter he is not over gunned for anything small, and is at least adiquate for anything he might want, or HAVE TO shoot while in much of the African bush away from the game farms!

The area where we hunt caribou, and moose in Alaska is very heavy with coastal brown bear popultation, so we hunt everything there with 375H&H bolt rifles, and have for many years. It is not feat at all to take caribou at 250-300 yards with a 375H&H scoped bolt rifle, but the chambering makes far more common sense in that area than a damn 30-06!

So AGAIN, the guy who can "SHOOT" his rifle is not over gunned, and is legal for what ever comes his way in Africa, though light for the big boys, and not needed for the little boys, is not a bad choice! That is "IF" he can shoot it! The article, as well as some here on AR assumes he can't shoot his rifle, so he is automaticlly OVER-GUNNED, if he uses a 375H&H for shooting his plains game!

I agree totally with Mac and he has stated it well. I will add that I think many hunters take a 375 or larger just in case someone will give them a really cheep or free DG hunt while they are there. Fat chance of that though.

465H&H

So ans so killed blankety blank with a 14 cal sissy banger so my rifle choice is ok. Interpretation: I am unwilling to admit that I am afraid to shoot a more effective caliber and will need to make an excuse to not seem like a sissy. You however are not a sissy but have not spent the time to learn to shoot a bigger gun. People are convinced that a bigger gun will hurt them but the reality is that they just need to practice.

I firmly believe Max T has got it. Baring physical injury, anyone should be able to shoot large bore rifles. Proper instruction, some gunsmith work and practice, practice, practice along with a commitment to master the weapon is what is required. You can't shoot 5 or 20 rounds of ammo and expect to be proficient with a large bore rifle. Mac is right when he says a .375 is NOT a large bore.

And for 465H&H, it seems to me that my earlier posts make it clear that if a .416 is what you have in your hand then it will perform better than a .375, on any critter, be it DG or PG. That has certainly been my experience. Yours may vary, but unless you've used both in Africa, as I have, you really wouldn't know. You won't change my mind and perhaps I won't change yours. As I said earlier, I don't really care what rifle anyone uses in Africa.

BTW, I still have my .375 and I find it works well in Alaska and Canada but if I was hunting large bear I would take my .416.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
It's beyond me why anyone will shell out forty or fifty grand for a full bag hunt and not take the time to become completely proficient with the rifle(s) he intends to hunt. I do not understand that type of convoluted thinking.

BINGO!

Of course when you do what we do for a living you get pretty religious about being as proficient as possible with your equipment. Especially if that equipment might have to pull you through a life or death situation.

These guys who buy a shiny new big bore and don't train with it are just like your doctor,lawyer,trust fund baby crowd who go buy a shiny new Bonanza or in today's world a Cirrus. They have minimal training, minimal experience and maximum ego which leads to an very unfair and highly skewed deadly accident rate for those type airframes.

I've never heard or read of a PH telling a new client, 'you need to go and buy a .375H&H for PG'. I have heard, 'bring what you shoot well'. That ties in with the article. Better off with a familiar .270 or .30-06 for PG than a new .375H&H.