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As to gunwriters - what Will said. I have talked to a couple, one is a reasonable acquaintance. His comment was - "How many articles do I need to write on the .30-06 vs. .270 debate or how many articles can we consume about Jack O'Connor?". In other words, it is hard coming up with new material or some new spin on things. In the end, most of them are told what to write about and told what guns/ammo to review. He said he rarely would write anything negative as most were advertisers in his mags. Trust what you know, not what you see or read. | |||
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Gentlemen I think most here are misunderstanding what Code4, Mike Rob, 460shooter and John Barsness are commenting on here! It is true that some hunters go hunting everywhere while over-gunned, but it has nothing to do with being over gunned for the GAME, that is almost impossible, but for the "HUNTER HIMSELF" it is quite possible, and IMO it happens far more in African safaris than any other place. As someone said "dead is dead", and nothing can be over dead. A PERSON can however, be over gunned. The bold print in the quote from 460shooter(which I agree with) is where the HUNTER may not be UNDER gunned for himself, but he may be damn sure under gunned if anything goes south on a bite back! If the guy can shoot his rifle properly he can get away with a smaller than average rifle for some game, but the same goes for the guy shooting a more appropriate chambering, and if both shoot equally well under pressure, the guy using a larger gun is in a better defensive position if the crap hits the fan. As M R said "Only the incompetent are over gunned!". As long as the guy can shoot the big rifle he chooses he is not over gunned, if he can't a smaller gun may be indicated within reason! So both sides are correct,but I think what John Barsness was writing about was the relationship between the gun and the man, not the game! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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That is destined to become a classic! Mike, thank you! I'm stealing it and plan on using it! John | |||
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But that same person may be very competent with a lighter recoiling rifle that is still adequate for the game hunted! As an example, I feel I am very competent with either of my doubles (465 and 470) or my 458 Lott. I would not be competent with a T-rex or 500 Overkill. 465H&H | |||
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Perhaps it would be valuable to provide proper context, the question posed by the article is: Does African PLAINS GAME really deserve its reputation of being incredibly difficult to bring down? He's not talking about the Big Five here, he's talking about elk v. kudu, etc. It's actually a great article & well-worth reading. I'll leave the debate on the merits to the peanut gallery. | |||
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Why bother reading the article?  | |||
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Woodhits, Don't stir up the rabble with the truth!  | |||
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Not at all. African animals, like all animals, if you hit them right, they die. Veryt simple really. | |||
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I routinely hunt all sorts of plains game with a .375 H&H Mag. So, am I overgunned? The entire concept is flawed, no matter the quarry. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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You're easily impressed. | |||
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Then so am I! Önly the incompetant are overgunned"+1 One comment on African game - they have a higher survival gene pool which makes them pound for pound tougher because of the predators involved compared to anywhere else. | |||
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You want to back that up with some data, or studies perhaps??? | |||
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I for one agree that African game is more tenacious for life over say European game. No proof other than my own experiences. | |||
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This actually happened to me. We were driving along a trail in the Selous Reservation in Tanzania, when we came around a curve and into an open area. On the left, the passanger side in the Land Cruiser I was riding in, was a small herd of greater kudu, consisting of several cows and one shootable bull. We stopped, I eased out the door, the gun bearer handed me my Krieghoff .375 O/U double rifle and I quickly loaded it. The herd started to move away into the brush, by the time I got the loaded rifle to my shoulder, the bull was the only one still in sight. He was standing at the edge of the clearing, quartering away from me to his right, and looking back over his shoulder. I quickly lined up a shot which would carry through to his off shoulder and squeezed it off. This is the result:  As it turned out, this was the only greater kudu bull I ever saw in Africa. If I had not made that 175 yard shot, standing, unsupported, I would have gone home empty handed, as far as kudu was concerned. | |||
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xausa: "We were driving along a trail in the Selous Reservation in Tanzania" Argggghhh!! Ain't never were no Redskins in this part of the world. Selous Game Reserve will do just fine.  | |||
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The toughest non dangerous game I have ever shot are Rocky Mountain Elk. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Johnfox Maybe you work for the federal government? Would you like to have a $250M study / talkfest to consider 1. there are are no Lions in Australia 2. there are no leopards in Australia 3. there are no high level predators apart from man to continually harass game such as deer here. Anyone tracking cape buffalo in a herd will have a story of a lion pride on the same herd hunt. You may be able to get my drift? If not have a nice day and keep voting Green if you have any time between seminars! | |||
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Without exception every client I have guided in Africa has commented on how tough the game is compared to that of their home country. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I was talking with a scientist who works with predator / game interaction, and his theory is that game in Africa has had to cope with a number of potential extinction scenarios; Foot & mouth disease, Rift valley fever, Rhindepest (sp) etc. etc. Most of these outbreaks have occurred a number times in the past, and have decimated populations of both herbivores, and carnivores have also suffered as a result of dwindling prey numbers once the disease has run it's course. The surviving herbivores have had to cope with an increased carnivore assault due to smaller numbers being available, until such time as the populations have again increased to the balance level between predator & prey, only to have it happen again some years down the line. Constant predation by large carnivores will also ensure that only the fittest survive. Couple the two scenarios over a number of centuries, and you have the recipe for some pretty tough animals. Makes a lot of sense to me, but it still does not make them immune to good shot placement. | |||
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You must have had client who cannot shoot straight!  Sorry, I could not help joking. In my experience, animals only become tough when the first shot is mis-placed. In fact, I am surprised how easy it is to kill all animals with a well placed shot. And that goes for buffalo as well. | |||
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I have not found African animals any tougher to kill than North American animals. The larger the animal the tougher it is to kill. An exception is the African elephant. They die quite easily to a heart/lung shot from a solid bullet considering their size. In my experience they run no further on average than a similarly hit mule deer buck before goinmg down. Yes, the predator numbers are higher for African game but African game doesn't have to put up with three to five months of deep snow in mountainous country either. 465H&H | |||
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Will: Enjoyed your last African Hunting Magazine Article! | |||
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Agreed!  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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A bit of aging and slow cooking will eliminate the problem. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I suspect a lot of the "bulletproof" reputation of African animals is from a combination of two things. One is that client hunters are not as familiar with the anatomy of the game animals and as such shoot them in fatal places, but the animal doesn't react the same way as they do at home. An example of this is getting a impala in the lungs when you thought you had just made a heart shot, and the beastie runs for a half mile before it dies- here you just shot a critter the size of a small whitetail deer where you do at home with the ol' 30-30 and you always find him within 100 yards, here you blasted him with a magnum and he ran a half mile, gee he's tough... The second is that most african game is larger than its western comparts. I know a lot of hunters that equate a eland with an elk, and a kudu with a deer and a buffalo with a bear. Simple physiologics indicate that the bigger something is, the longer it will take to die of a same sized hole from blood loss. If you remember that a kudu or a waterbuck is elk-sized, a eland is moose-sized and a buffalo is much larger than a big bear then the comparisons are the same. | |||
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That was funny. I never shot anything outside of Africa so what do I know? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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UEG, I am praying that you are not confusing me with Will!!!  465H&H | |||
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First, I'd like to thank EVERYBODY who posted on this thread, both the relatively few that actually read the article, plus the many who had very firm comments even though they had no idea what the article was about. Publicity is always good! I am sure SPORTS AFIELD thanks you for the same reason. Their circulation continues to rise rapidly, even during these economic times, even though they continue to run articles by professional writers with deadlines. I especially liked my old friend Outdoor Writer's comment. Very true! John Barsness | |||
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Welcome John, Yep we all have LOTS of opinions around here. Do you ever make it up into the Crazies? SSR | |||
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Howdy, Though I'm not too far from the Crazies (next valley over) if I do decide to drive that far, I tend to keep on going to eastern Montana! | |||
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Good to see you here, JB. Welcome to your roast.  P.S. -- I figured a bit of humor was needed. Tony Mandile - Author "How To Hunt Coues Deer" | |||
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John B. just be glad your not Zumbo posting here!  | |||
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This has been a great thread. Very interesting. I have to agree that many are carrying rifles they have too little experience with or are in fear of. We also have a lot of guys up here in Alaska carrying more gun than they are proficient with. One of the issues I have noticed from watching some of the hunting shows, especially on African hunts, are the number of hunters who seem not to know how to run a bolt without taking the rifle off their shoulder. It seems a lot of guys have to look at their rifle to run the bolt, taking their attention off the target. I watched one a few nights ago in which they were dealing with a cape buffalo that was taking some shooting to bring down. The hunter took the rifle off his shoulder each shot and looked at it while he ran the bolt. At least he didn't catch the brass. Fortunately the hunt ended well with no charges but he sure spent a lot of time looking at his rifle when he should have been watching the buffalo. I haven't hunted Africa yet but live and hunt here in Alaska. While we are probably less likely to have to deal with dangerous game here, the possibility exists. I made it a priority many years ago to learn to run the gun from the shoulder. A little practice away from the bench really helps develop this skill. I am guilty of spending too much time at the bench and have to remind myself to do some real practice. You fellows have way more experience than I do in this area. I hope you don't mind my chiming in with my observations. Mart "...I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprize, and independance to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." Thomas Jefferson | |||
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mart, You will find many us drop our rifles to look at the breach when reloading as this is the only way to confirm that a cartridge has been picked up and fed. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I guess I can see that but it seems counterproductive to dismount, cycle the bolt while visually verifying the chambering of a round, remount the rifle, acquire the target (hopefully) and follow up with a second shot. Some of the hunters I have seen on these shows don't demonstrate any level of practiced ease with their rifle. Some of them seem to fumble around with their rifles like they have never touched them before. There are some however, that you know spend considerable time with their rifles. Their body movements and ease with which they handle their rifles indicate they shoot a lot. I guess the point I was trying to make and did it poorly, was that judging by the actions of some of the TV hunters, they haven't spent the time they should have prior to the hunt to get comfortable with their rifle. Again you guys have much more experience than I do in this matter so if I am completely off base, my apologies and I will apply a more objective eye to the next Africa hunting show I watch. I don't watch them a lot, but sometimes the Alaska winters force you back inside for a while and most TV shows really stink. Mart p.s. I wasn't trying to hijack this thread but it sparked some observations and questions. "...I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprize, and independance to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Mate, when you put this litte diatribe together with your conspiracy theory about the UN and Australia post, you're either on drugs or you need to be.. Getting back to the original subject all bar one of the 14 animals my mate and I shot in Namibia last September dropped to the shot and died right there. The largest were kudu and oryx. Cartridges?? 6.5x55 and a 300SAUM. I'll be leaving the SAUM at home the next time and I'll take the 7x64 I'm currently building. | |||
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Totally agree with your observations. Sunny and warm here. Beers are ice cold though! ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Johnfox There have been valid points made on this thread. Mine is that the natural selection process is much tougher in Africa compared to the rest of the globe which Gman21 also posted. Also as your experience and Saeed has been if hit properly with the first shot the game will expire quickly. However get it wrong just slightly and the quarry in Africa can be incredibly tenacious to life. I have had an impala make it several hundred metres after having the off side shoulder virtually removed by a 165gr Nosler 308. Still needed a finisher. Also as with any game it depends whether their adrenaline is up or they are calm. Finally as to the other thread - no conspiracy just fact - Australia is a signatory to a UN treaty which Australia Post has advised Customs about. Some places this is being enforced but obviously they aren't x-raying all parcels so gear still getting through.I have the advice forwarded from ACS at work and can email it through if required. As to drugs - you may be right - they could help deal with living in Australia today and the future? | |||
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Natural selection has been at and is at work in North America as well as in Africa. The selection process is just different. NA may not have as many predators as Africa but the extreme winter weather here is more of a selection agent then predation is in Africa. African animals haven't changed much in the last several thousand years, while in North America there has been vast changes in the past 20,000 years. As an example animals more closely related to African animals such as sabre tooth tigers, wooly rhinocerous, mastodons, horses and mamouths couldn't make it here and went extinct. Hit an alaskan/yukon moose with a lung shot and he will stand around as long as a cape buff hit in the same place. It is almost allways a matter of size. 465H&H | |||
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