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I think what you have written here sums it up perfectly. This was less about a hunt and more about a middle aged fat man trying to prove his manhood; which is exactly how the anti-hunters try to paint hunting and hunters, as ego driven fools who try to make up for personal shortcomings by killing animals. I have never viewed hunting as such an endeavor and feel no need to prove my manhood to anyone, so I will not be chasing immature buffalo with a spear any time soon. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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I agree with LHOOK7,i spose quite few would fall under the category of hunters out to prove their manhood.But the sense of achievement/ selfesteem which some might call an ego boost is inseparable from the experience of hunting.Some might take away only that, for others its a deeper experience. I just have problem with little or less accomplished individuals casting aspersions on the proven deeds of others to assert thier insecurities. As for the anti hunters, they are a bunch of simpering ninnies who think they have the monopoly when it comes to affection for animals.In the words of another, the problem with that crowd is the women just need a good root and the men are trying to figure out which side to bat for. To hunt, fish and tell only the truth. | |||
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I'm not sure I buy this "bad for hunters' image" story. What do you think the well documented, photographed and published practice of cutting a dead elephant's tail off and posing with it for the camera does for hunters' image? The double standards here (from time to time) can be pretty disappointing. | |||
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I know Lynn, he can be blunt and out spoken but is completely honest. Both he and his techniques are are acquired tastes and while he may not look like much on-the-hoof, he is tough and gets out there and does things, rather than talk about them. He has talked with me for years about hunting Alaskan brown bears with a spear. It may be a stunt and an ego boost but he certainly can't botch the job any more than a lot of other hunters I have witnessed do with a rifle !! If he does book a hunt with me I will try to put him on a large, mature boar and will certainly back him up with the same 458 that I back up rifle hunters with. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Interesting enough Fred Bear gave up hunting with rifles in favor of hunting with BoW&aRRow. Fred was a hunter, yet people have said those that hunt DG with such equipment are foolhardy or 'stunt' shooting. Hemingway & other creative story tellers, hunted DG [with rifles], yet I dont have the same respect for some of them, as I do for Fred Bear. Thats not because of ones choice of equipment, but because of the motives,attitudes & reasons for hunting. I feel that Fred filmed his hunts to share the actual experience -what ever that turned out to be, whereas I feel Hemingway hunted in hope of intentionally encountering dramatic events to provide material to fuel his emotive writing. If when hunting DG I encounter a swift efficient mostly uneventful kill, I would be most grateful, wheres commercially driven exagerated story tellers like Hemingway, actually expressed disappointment when hunting DG turned out to be in his view, not eventful enough.- Hemingway expected a certain level of performance from the animal. And really, partly what drives the commercial Safari hunting industry in attracting clients, is planting in the potential clients mind, the possibility that the hunt maY result in events that make the hunt more exciting-thrilling...'dangerous'...? I gather a certain element or possibility of 'unpredictability' in the wild beast, it what makes it dangerously appealing, However if things get a little too uncomfortably out of line, there can be a plethora of bigBores in a hunters group, that are ready to rain down on the beast, in order to reduce the level of risk,challenge or danger,... on a DG hunt. a shitload of BigBore barrels bearing down on one lion? ...  If someone feels they require that much BigBore backup,..they probably should not be hunting DG. I dont mind if they do,..but they get scant respect from me. ..which should make no difference to a person who does not care what other people think. | |||
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TRAX, I agree with your take on Fred Bear, and his reasons for filming his hunts, and writing about the very deep emotion involved in the stalk and getting in close with a bow. Fred Died with a very painful death of lung cancer. When I last saw him he was sitting in front of the bib Kodiak bear he took in Alaska at the Shot Show in Houston Texas where he was not able to talk much with an oxigen mask on his face. I still have a Bear Grizzley 55# re-courve bow that I hunted with for some years, so I understand the bow hunting mystique. Having said that, I think you are mistaken if you think Fred di not have a firearm back-up when hunting dangerous game with a bow! I can assure you he did, it is just that he never needed it, and the so-called hunters in the film that started this thread did have balls to get that close to even the very young buffalo with a speer! That is not what those here who object to! The film is not good for hunting because of the way the PEOPLE in it act, not the speer hunting. I think if the people had acted the same way as Fred did in his films this thread wouldn't have garnered six pages of comment. If you think the comments here by hunters are bad wait till you see the comments by anti-hunting dip shits. I regard to the film clip you posted in your post above. That was a very well run follow-up of a wounded lion, and an un-wounded buddy in some of the nastist bush you could pick for that type of follow-up. The fact is that was Johan Calitz and other PHs going in to clean up a clients screw-up, not client hunters. Place yourself in that sittuation, for a moment. You go in alone or with only one other person with a wounded lion, and an unwounded one as well. You have no idea from where this lion will charge. Top that off with the possibility of the unwounded lion coming along for the party, or from what dirrection. Even with only the wounded one charging they very nearly did not stop that lion with all the shots fired with the only one getting more than one shot was Johan with his double wit at least one of his shots hitting the lion, but not stopping him. I would love to see the look on YOUR face when that lion charged YOU sitting where Mr. Trout was positioned! I think you would have been praying for a machinegun,I know I would have! If you will notice every one of those people where in a or kneeling or sitting position when the charge started. That is because a lion is damn hard to stop in a charge, and the low position places the shooter on the same level plain with at lion reducing the changing angle for what will likely be the only shot you will get with a bolt rifle, and no more than two with a double. As well a lion charge is a hell of a lot more dangerous that a cape buffalo. or water buffalo charge. Unlike the film that started this long thread, this was a "must sort out" that was very dangerous to every one in that party. In this case I think you are comparing apples to oranges by even attempting to compare these two films in the same thread! I agree that back-up is justified whan hunting any dangerous game, and even more needed when hunting with a marginal weapon, so I have zero problem with a spear hunter having a side arm in case things go bad. My objection to the origenal film clip was the people's attitude on the film. That is what does the harm to hunting, not the back-up. ......................................................................... ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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+2 Aim for the face which is held low in the charge. 3rd and 4th pic down here might be of interest. | |||
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Respectfully Mac - I think there are a broad range of criticism of the Thompson videos through this thread - not just criticism of the behaviour of the participants. Up to and including criticism of the physical appearance of Thompson. WRT the Calitz video - was the client hunter not present off camera?? I thought the client was right there in the follow-up with the PH's? A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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You could very well be correct, but the bulk were PH conscripted to help with that follow-up, and as far as I know the client did not join in on the shooting during that charge! PH Trout was the one who actually killed the lion, and Johan hit it through the flank from a side shot. The only person in that charge who was in a perfect position for the kill was Trout! In any event the follow-up was properly done! ........................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I was under the impression that Fred did have rifle backup available on his hunts, I did not imply anything to the contrary. I really dont see an issue with a non rifle equipped hunter having rifle/firearm backup. If a rifle equipped ametuer hunter/client can have numerous more capable people/with more capable weapons,.. backing him/her up, I dont see why A spear or bow equipped hunter cannot have the same equal privilege. | |||
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The person who killed it was PH Ronnie Krause, not Trout. The client was a female hunter who shot the cat in the paw. She was not present in the clean up. The full version is on the DVD, "In a Hunter's Shadow". The lady hunter seems a bit detached and unconcerned for the danger she put the PH's in during the follow on scene where she speaks about "Her Trophy". | |||
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Sounds like one of those "SCI recored book trophy hunteress's"  All they care about their name in the record book, as they haven't a clue what hunting is all about! Bloody disgusting if you ask me. | |||
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...........................................................................  You are right Todd! I simply missunderstood the audio on the film. TROUT & KRAUSE sound the same to a guy who has been shooting big bore handguns and rifles for 7o years, and working under running jet engines for 32 years. In any event it wasn't the Female client but a professional PH who cleaned up the mess! ..........................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Or any number of other scenarios...  A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Eehhh? Whadyasay?  I'm suffering from the same malady Mac! Gunshots and jets!Matt, I agree with you. Not sure how this became an SCI issue for Saeed. I don't recall the huntress mentioning SCI; maybe she did, it's been awhile since I saw the full segment. I do remember her being damn flippant about the whole thing. Back to the topic of the OP. I made a comment early on about this being a juvenile buffalo and with rifle back up. I'll give my opinion for anyone who cares to listen. Firstly, I could stand to loose a few pounds myself, so I won't comment on the hunter's weight. However, his "Am I a fast M---- F---- or what?" comment after firing the pistol is just obnoxious IMO. Doesn't matter to me if he had just won the Mr. Fitness USA title, that type of commentary is objectionable to me. Is it an issue for the anti's to use against us? Maybe, but I'm less concerned about that argument as I don't think they differentiate ethical hunts from non-ethical hunts. They just view it as killing and make no distinction. Concerning the young buff. Why? Why stalk the young animal instead of a fully mature animal? Is it the old argument that "Any buck taken with archery is a trophy!"? I don't know how many times I've heard that statement. I don't agree with it. To me, trophy hunting is about taking the old animal that has passed on it's genes and from a conservation standpoint, makes sense to be harvested at this time. There is also the issue of population management by taking select females at times. This young bull doesn't meet either of those criteria. I don't agree with lowering the standard to shoot just any animal simply because of using a more primitive weapon so therefore any kill will do! That was the reason for my comment earlier about it being a young buffalo. Concerning the rifle back up. I am a bow hunter as well. I haven't practiced it in awhile but I consider myself a bow hunter as I've done quite a bit of it and have successfully taken several animals with archery gear. For some reason, I have a hard time accepting the validity of an archery hunt for DG with a rifle back up. I know most will not share my view and that's fine. Differences of opinion are what make campfire discussions interesting. Somehow, it's a bit like the guys who take a rifle and a bow on a hunt and state "If I get close enough, I'll use the bow. If not, I'll use the rifle!". Well ... No! Either hunt with a rifle or the bow. Bow hunting isn't about just using the arrow to kill if it works out. It's a commitment to upping the level of your abilities to accomplish the hunt with the more primitive weapon. Having a rifle back up on an archery DG hunt (or spear) is absolutely the sensible thing to do, however, for me, it somehow takes away that commitment to the primitive weapon in the same way that switching to a rifle does when your elk of a lifetime just won't allow you to get closer than 150 yards. But that is just my opinion and I certainly respect the right to disagree with it. I enjoy watching other guys hunting clips. I post some of mine in hopes that some will find them enjoyable to watch. I doubt many people enjoy watching some guy talk smack about how great he is after killing the animal. That is really what put me off about this fellow's video and made me question his motivation of both the young animal and the primitive weapon with rifle back up. | |||
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Not everyone is hell bent on a record book buff, nor is hunting always about obtaining a trophy size/aged animal. Maybe some people just want to experience hunting with a spear, with a record book buffalo not being their priority. FOR a good number of yrs they had gov. eradication[feral animal control] programs for the introduced Asiatic water Buff, to reduce the high degree of ecological damage they caused, so I dont think the same game management rules/considerations need to apply as with other species/other parts of the world. also,... what constitutes a trophy to some people may not constitute a trophy to someone else. If Thompson enjoyed and is satisfied with that particular hunting experience, then thats all that really matters. | |||
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Once again - in Lynn's defence - I have known Lynn for quite a few years now and I have never known him to swear, not ever. When he got back to camp that day he told everyone that he was upset he swore at the time and apologised to the guide (again). He said that it just came out in the excitement of the moment. He was upset about it - but in the Australian way - I told to just get the fuck over it. The fact that the video producer left it in the Youtube clip (bleeped out) I cannot comment on. As I said elsewhere - Lynn likes to brag and as far as I have seen almost always with good reason. This (particular hunt) was about killing a buffalo with a spear, not a hunt for trophies necessarily. As for the game management - that is up to the managers of the estate. We were very comfortable with what we were doing. Todd - I am just wondering - have you ever hunted dangerous game with a bow?(in relation to having backup)... A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Matt, I really don't have a major problem with Lynn's video other than his smack talking put me off. I don't see it as the threat to hunting that others here have expressed. I simply clarified the reason for my first remarks on this thread. And those reasons are that IMO, his smack talking is in bad taste. Not something for the anti's to use against us, but just not something I find enjoyable to watch in a hunting video. Since he thinks he's such a bad M---- F----- that he needs to tell the world about it, I expressed a couple of my thoughts about why I don't think he is such a bad M------ F-------. One being the hunting of an immature animal. If it was for management purposes, fine. If it was for subsistence as Trax often implies in his comments, fine (but it was not). Other than that, why? Because he was using a primitive weapon and an immature animal is easier to take with said primitive weapon? Again, I've heard bow hunters say, any animal with a primitive weapon is a trophy! Some buy that and some don't. I just happen to not buy that. Matt, I'm not big on this moral high ground stuff about passing judgement on other hunters as to ethics. If you knew me, you would agree with that statement. But I do interact with a lot of antis and non-hunters that express opposition to "trophy hunting" and the one argument I've almost always been able to get them to listen to, not always agree with, but at least listen to, is that trophy hunting is not about indiscriminate killing but about selective harvesting of the old animals no longer contributing to the gene pool. That or management of problem animals contributing to overpopulation. Hey, I haven't been perfect in that regard but who has? Regarding your question of whether or not I've hunted DG with a bow. No. And I doubt very seriously I ever will. Of course having a rifle back up is the only reasonable thing to do with regards to safety. I think I stated that previously. And I don't object to others doing it. But don't tell me it's a true primitive weapon hunt. It's still a rifle hunt (because the rifle back up is there). IMO and that is all it is, JMO, it becomes a stunt in the same way a guy might take a rifle to the deer stand along with his bow. "I'll shoot the animal with the bow if all goes exactly right and if not, I'll just use the rifle". IMO, that's a rifle hunt. It just isn't what it's claiming to be which is the taking of a dangerous animal with a primitive weapon and all the limitations that implies. But if others want to do it and claim they've done something special, I'll just listen to their story without contradicting. But if they talk smack about how much of a bad ass they are, yea ... I might make a comment or two! | |||
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Hey mate - have a look at the title of the video... it is "Lynn Thompson gets charged by buffalo" - Lynn's exclamation was about him shooting the buffalo with the handgun in a second or two... nothing about the spearing. Lynn rates himself as the best handgun hunter (shooter), especially under pressure, in the world. That's Lynn - he's different!! This clip was not about the spear hunting. As the OP said - how not to spear a buffalo... and that is very true!!! The spearing was a fail!! A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Matt, Just telling you WHY I made a comment at all. Nothing more. I made a comment because Lynn asked: "Am I a bad M---- F---- or what?". He asked!! My answer is: "Or what!". And I gave my reasons for why I think that way. | |||
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OK mate... BUT if Lynn's statement was actually a question... Didn't your parents tell you never to answer a question with another question!! I really think it was a rhetorical question!! When you get to know me better Todd you will find that I could argue with you wearing full scuba gear!! A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Matt, I'm guilty of the same!  | |||
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switching to using a rifle over the bow one also has on a hunt,..may not really be a true primitive weapon hunt,...& requiring a PH to cleanUp poorly rifle shot game, is not really a hunt/kill[secured animal] the client should take credit for. - People can switch/choose between different projectile types on the same animal/hunt, - People can switch between different size/power centrefire rifles on the same animal/hunt - People can switch between who actually kills and secures the animal. - People can switch between Bow,rifle,spear,knife,dogs, [or combine] - People can switch/mix forms of transport on a hunt - People can switch how they hunt, ie; use a Blind then find they have to track-walk/stalk. ...I really dont have a problem with people exercising their options on a hunt. If a person sets out with a centrefire and ends up finishing the animal with a sharp edged weapon, to me its still a hunt. If someone sets out with an sharp edged weapon and ends up finishing the job with a handgun, to me its still a hunt. | |||
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You have a nice day now, OK! | |||
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Todd, just curious,..in your opinion, - should hunters/clients who have seriously 'muffed' their rifle shot on game, take credit for an animal[trophy?] that was then essentially tracked,killed and secured by the PH..? | |||
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It is an age old understanding that whoever draws first blood owns the animal. | |||
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If you finish off an animal with a centrefire after 'muffing' your shot with a bow or spear, you are still technically hunting, but cannot strictly claim to be doing so in the 'completely genuine-true primitive weapon method' in its entirety. cause you have relied on a more modern weapon to complete the Job. If you have your PH track,finish off & secure your animal for you - after you muffed the shot with your rifle, the client was still technically hunting when he muffed his shot, but I am not sure the client can genuinely lay claim to being responsible for the successful conclusion of the hunt, [& securing of the trophy],..which he now claims to be his. It can certainly be the paying clients hunt, and it can certainly be a trophy that resulted from a hunt conducted on the clients behalf, but the clients level of involvement and corresponding credit due [to the client or his weapon of choice],.. can vastly vary. I can set out with a sharp edged weapon, but find it necessary to use my rifle to succesfully conclude the hunt. I can set out with my .375,..but find it necessary to have my PH use his .505cal to successfully conclude the hunt. I am not convinced that - a hunt started with a spear and finished by the same client with his centrefire, is worthy of any more criticism, than a hunt started by a rifle equipped client and finished with the PHs rifle and skills. Both hunts didnt exactly unfold they way some would have 'ideally' liked,.. either way,one was not able to conduct or successfully conclude the hunt in the manner they would have ideally preferred. | |||
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What a dumb video. And very un-entertaining with the usual over the top braggart crap from the worst videos. But Matt Graham's explanations of what the video shows is spot on. The bang is a spear hitting a termite mound, the reason it is so much more quiet than the pistol shots, no rope, different bulls, etc etc. Good dodging of the bull and pistol shooting it too. And the guy gets up close and very personal, not sniping at it at 200 metres like a lot of buffalo hunting videos on the net ... BTW I think I am yet to see a video of Shakari the resident expert hunting buffalo, cape or water or whatever ... | |||
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I've never professed to be an expert in anything but I have (to the best of my knowledge/recollection) always had the good taste and common sense to stay firmly behind any video cameras in my vicinity. | |||
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