quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

A person can 'muff' a shot on DG with a medium bore rifle,then have their PH clean it up with his uber BigBore whoPPa sToppeR,
....and AR people will congratulate you on your successful hunt.

Don't know that the PH is necessarily using "his uber bigbore whopper stopper', some use the large mediums 40cals too but I agree in principal with your point here.

We don't have a choice now when hunting DG not to be accompanied by a PH and they will back up where required. I don't have a problem with that where it is like for like, i.e. if the hunter really muffs his shot with a DG rifle then the PH responds with like.
I guess it is a matter then of how each individual lays claim to being the successful hunter. Personally if I could not knock the animal down and finish it with my own shooting then I would be disappointed in my own shooting and would certainly not intimate that it was my success and pose for photos.

When reading some of these posts I recalled reading about the late Val Forgett, founder of Navy Arms, who went on safari in Africa with black powder muzzle loaders. Just dug up the article again in the 1974 Lyman Black Powder Handbook to refer to. A very good read but unfortunately some of the claimed successes of the muzzle loaders on DG by Val and where he is recognised by SCI as the first person in over 100years to take the Big 5 with a black powder muzzle loader, are a stretch of the truth. After Val missed the brain of his charging bull elephant and was left standing with an empty single shot muzzle loader, it was stopped with a 458W to the neck by his PH, the photo of Val posing with his muzzle loader and elephant has the caption saying it was probably the only elephant taken in 100 years with a muzzleloader. Had it not been for the PH and his 458 Val would likely not have been with us for the years after that event.

I feel in similar vein when those that choose to use a bow, spear or a knife to hunt game then rely on a modern rifle or pistol to get them out of a situation the other weapons have got them into. That's how I see it anyway.

A Trophy hunter[with rifle] will have his/her name put in the record books,
not the name of the PH who saved his bacon and who actually secured the animal.

If you 'muff' your shot with a rifle,handgun,arrow,spear-...you have 'muffed' your shot pure and simple.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

I feel in similar vein when those that choose to use a bow, spear or a knife to hunt game then rely on a modern rifle or pistol to get them out of a situation the other weapons have got them into. That's how I see it anyway.

Yeah well if they didnt kill the animal with that weapon but claim it as so!!

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Is there any other country, civilized or otherwise that offers the hunting/killing (legally of course)of any species of wildlife?

There are quite a lot of countries in the world that offer hunting/killing of animals.

Some years ago in NZ a non-alcoholic 'whiskey' was produced and promoted for those that wanted to be seen to be drinking whiskey but were not. It was called Claytons and of course was a dismal marketing failure despite a lot of airtime on TV. The name Claytons has become synonymous here for 'something that isn't'.

Perhaps we could have a page on AR Forums for Clayton trophies for those that pose with downed trophies but for PH intervention wouldn't be

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Some years ago in NZ a non-alcoholic 'whiskey' was produced and promoted for those that wanted to be seen to be drinking whiskey but were not. It was called Claytons and of course was a dismal marketing failure despite a lot of airtime on TV. The name Claytons has become synonymous here for 'something that isn't'.

Perhaps we could have a page on AR Forums for Clayton trophies for those that pose with downed trophies but for PH intervention wouldn't be

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claytons
Same in Australia of course... at the moment we have a Claytons Federal Government...

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Some years ago in NZ a non-alcoholic 'whiskey' was produced and promoted for those that wanted to be seen to be drinking whiskey but were not. It was called Claytons and of course was a dismal marketing failure despite a lot of airtime on TV. The name Claytons has become synonymous here for 'something that isn't'.

Perhaps we could have a page on AR Forums for Clayton trophies for those that pose with downed trophies but for PH intervention wouldn't be

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claytons
Same in Australia of course... at the moment we have a Claytons Federal Government...

I see you Aussies kept it on the market after we dropped it, must have been thirsty years

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

Yes, this is great for our collective public image as hunters: a fat hunter walking up to an immature buffalo, that does not appear to be the least bit concerned about his presence, and then throwing a spear at it with with the same grace, power, and form of a third grade girl trying to throw a shot put and having much the same results.

it lodged in the buffalo's horn... The buffalo blocked it with his horn

I assume the bewildered emoticon in your post is referring to your vague answer. Was the spear lodged in the horn or blocked? If it was lodged I watched the wrong video because I saw fat boy walk up to an immature buffalo and lob a spear at it which even the docile young creature in the video I watched was able to deflect.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
A spear (that spear) into the vitals kills very, very fast mate. It has a very large cutting edge and as the animal moves it does a lot of damage, cutting arteries and other organs. It also penetrates very well, even on very thick skinned animals like these buffalo.

not to argue, but have you seen that actually happen? I can't help but think that a spear could have a tough time making it between the ribs. if you have seen it, or credibly heard of it, then it is settled for me, as I take your word for it.

quote:

Originally posted by delloro:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
A spear (that spear) into the vitals kills very, very fast mate. It has a very large cutting edge and as the animal moves it does a lot of damage, cutting arteries and other organs. It also penetrates very well, even on very thick skinned animals like these buffalo.

not to argue, but have you seen that actually happen? I can't help but think that a spear could have a tough time making it between the ribs. if you have seen it, or credibly heard of it, then it is settled for me, as I take your word for it.

Oh yes - they will smash right through the middle of the thickest buffalo rib and still have enough energy to continue to the other side of the chest cavity and perhaps even completely penetrate the rib on the other side. No need to go between the ribs!! This is something that the heaviest, toughest arrow and broadhead combination cannot do.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:

I assume the bewildered emoticon in your post is referring to your vague answer. Was the spear lodged in the horn or blocked? If it was lodged I watched the wrong video because I saw fat boy walk up to an immature buffalo and lob a spear at it which even the docile young creature in the video I watched was able to deflect.

Let me walk you through it... He stalked/walked up to the buffalo - the hunter was on one side of the large termite mound and the buffalo was on the other side and the buffalo could not see the hunter at all. In the last steps the hunter moved faster, so that he could get a shot over the top of the mound, before the buffalo stepped clear. As he went to throw over the termite mound the buffalo saw the movement of arm and spear and blocked the spear. He blocked the it with his horn and the spear lodged in his horn.

We told all of the hunters that if the buffalo saw the hunter throw a spear at them they would never hit the buffalo in the body - and in 14 days of hunting this is exactly how it panned out. None of the buffalo that saw the throw could be touched in the body with the spear because their reaction time is much faster that the time-in-flight.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claytons
Same in Australia of course... at the moment we have a Claytons Federal Government...

I see you Aussies kept it on the market after we dropped it, must have been thirsty years

Strange city folks must have been drinking it??

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Matt

Here's a good example of how what is posted on the internet can be stolen and twisted so our activities can be unfairly portrayed in a bad light.

At 5.03 of this video we see who must be one of the most ethical and generous hunters on AR AND a highly respected PH both being portrayed as canned lion hunters.

Steve, at 5.10 in the video is a PH friend of mine and I know for a fact that hunt was not a canned hunt.

Charl,

The guy on the left with the big smile on his face is our very own Saeed who owns this site and I also know the Vincents..... We weren't quite neighbours but they lived near Nelspruit when I lived just outside White River.

Both are very fine men and I'd guess that pic was probably taken in Zim and definitely not a chance in hell of it being a canned hunt.

I find it bloody disgraceful that this company should get away with misrepresenting two such fine men and our sport in such a way.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:I find it bloody disgraceful that this company should get away with misrepresenting two such fine men and our sport in such a way.

Ditto and the people posting comments on the video are unaware that the pics are not canned hunts and that the "hunt" from the back of the cruiser is staged!

I wanted to comment on the video but know my comments will probably be removed.

Their vwebsite is www.sanwild.org

I am sure it is one of those orgenizations claiming to save teh animals, while in reality all they do is line their own pockets from the donations from the ignorant Joe Public!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Their vwebsite is www.sanwild.org

I am sure it is one of those orgenizations claiming to save teh animals, while in reality all they do is line their own pockets from the donations from the ignorant Joe Public!

You could always sue the bastards or hit them with an email campaign from AR members but probably the best thing to do is complain to You Tube on the grounds that it's libelous and untrue and have them remove it.

So antis use 'ethical' hunt footage and photos as well as 'unethical'... go figure....

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
So antis use 'ethical' hunt footage and photos as well as 'unethical'... go figure....

They don't care if it's ethical or unethical, they care about what they can use to their own advantage and will do it by any means possible which is why it should be so bloody obvious that we need to be careful what we put on the net.

That pic of Saeed is a fine example of how what most of us would consider to be a perfectly ethical and innocent photograph can be stolen and misrepresented and if it can happen to that image just think for much damage a mucking foronic video of canned hunting or the video under discussion can do.

As I've said numerous times before, you tube will one day be the death of hunting.

And Facebook!

Matt:

Anything to do with the killing of animals is fodder for the antis - a seemingly normal and innocent photo (to us) of a hunter with his quarry is probably categorized in their "Murderer" section whereas the gory pics would get a higher rating and fall into the "Barbaric" group.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

As I've said numerous times before, you tube will one day be the death of hunting.

OK - let me know when you find where Youtube has actually had a demonstrated negative effect.

Don't be bloody silly Matt..... I've (previously) mentioned how a load of images/data have been stolen and misused to misrepresent our sport (and even offered to email it to you!) and also just shown another example of how images of Saeed has been stolen and misused...... do you think the antis will steal from one media but not from another?

Talk about you can take a horse to water but can't make him drink!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Don't be bloody silly Matt..... I've (previously) mentioned how a load of images/data have been stolen and misused to misrepresent our sport and also just shown another example of how images of Saeed has been stolen and misused...... do you think the antis will steal from one media but not from another?

Talk about you can take a horse to water but can't make him drink!

So those websites have resulted in some loss of a hunting season, or closure of an area or some such negative result... or just more hot air from the antis??

Just because they are misused doesnt mean that any authority is going too pay attention to them.

Politicians aren't inspired by good or bad ideas but by public opinion and those videos and indeed perfectly reasonable hunting pics and statements can easily be misused and misrepresented to whip up public opinion which in turn can easily damage our sport....... anyone who thinks otherwise is plain wrong.

I'm sure that if you searched on phrases such as anti hunting videos you'll find plenty more that would prove my point but then again, perhaps people should ignore it, go their happy way, post ever increasing mucking foronic videos and just wait until public opinion has been whipped up, politicians have taken advantage of it all to ban our respective sports and then just take up knitting.

Next time I post a Youtube clip of my own I'll run it by you first Steve, just to make sure it's OK...OK?

The Botswana issue stemmed from what, if not the anti-hunting groups?
Has anyone taken the time to read all the BS that was fabricated by the antis against the hunting community?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Next time I post a Youtube clip of my own I'll run it by you first Steve, just to make sure it's OK...OK?

Nice of you to offer Matt but there's really no need..... you might however like to stop and think for a moment or two about the implications of your actions and the damage you might be doing before you go ahead and shoot us all in the feet.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
The Botswana issue stemmed from what, if not the anti-hunting groups?
Has anyone taken the time to read all the BS that was fabricated by the antis against the hunting community?

I've been wondering about that but my impression was that it was more about rival commercial interests than actual anti's though eh??

One thing that gets me is there seems to be a reluctance in Africa (from what I read and hear) to try to mix hunting programmes with general tourism programmes. We have a project here in Australia at the moment where we were forced to do just that and it has been working surprisingly well, so far - if the cooperative relationship doesn't work then both may fail. Perhaps if there was more of a drive to integrate the two from the ground level - situations like in Botswana may have been averted... I don't know, I am only commenting on Africa as a casual observer.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Next time I post a Youtube clip of my own I'll run it by you first Steve, just to make sure it's OK...OK?

Nice of you to offer Matt but there's really no need..... you might however like to stop and think for a moment or two about the implications of your actions and the damage you might be doing before you go ahead and shoot us all in the feet.

How do you think I would accomplish such foot-shooting Steve?

I'm surprised you need to ask that..... but maybe, on reflection and after considering your previous responses, I'm not that surprised.

I guess you could avoid foot shooting if you start by watching the mucking foronic video that started all this and use it as a template of the sort of thing NOT to post under any circumstances whatsoever.

It takes big balls to...
Walk up to a Bubalus Bubalis with the intention of throwing a spear at the bugger.
To actually throw said spear.
To then having missed dance, stand to draw and fire a pistol at resonably pissed off BB.
To say 'sorry' having discovered you were being a dick.

It just takes a big mouth to talk shit.

Fitter better looking hunters, put your hand up if you have stalked DG spear in hand.

Back up or no backup.

yeah thought so...


oh btw, Matt ur such a stubborn bastard, ure almost a kiwi mate....good on you.

Thompson is a braggart by his own admission, he trademarked it... but one things for sure that guy has the biggest balls. Yes it takes very big balls to walk up to a buffalo and throw a spear at it, with the intention of killing it - it doesn't matter how big it is. I am not too proud to say that in those 14 days hunting, when we were so close to buffalo at times you could hear them breathing, that my knees and teeth chattered a couple of times. Those three guys were all cool as....

Stubborn, yeah.
I like Kiwi hunters - they are the toughest white-fella hunters on this planet.

quote:

Originally posted by Shukaree:
It takes big balls to...
Walk up to a Bubalus Bubalis with the intention of throwing a spear at the bugger.
To actually throw said spear.
To then having missed dance, stand to draw and fire a pistol at resonably pissed off BB.
To say 'sorry' having discovered you were being a dick.

It just takes a big mouth to talk shit.

Fitter better looking hunters, put your hand up if you have stalked DG spear in hand.

Back up or no backup.

yeah thought so...


oh btw, Matt ur such a stubborn bastard, ure almost a kiwi mate....good on you.

I read this whole thing from start to finish. I have to say I agree with you.

If there was a chance some were dealing with cold and snow I'd say cabin fever was involved but I doubt that is the case.

quote:

Originally posted by Shukaree:
It takes big balls to...
Walk up to a Bubalus Bubalis with the intention of throwing a spear at the bugger.
To actually throw said spear.
To then having missed dance, stand to draw and fire a pistol at resonably pissed off BB.
To say 'sorry' having discovered you were being a dick.

It just takes a big mouth to talk shit.

Fitter better looking hunters, put your hand up if you have stalked DG spear in hand.

Back up or no backup.

yeah thought so...


oh btw, Matt ur such a stubborn bastard, ure almost a kiwi mate....good on you.

Theres been quite a bit of video made over the years featuring fellows engaged in all kinds of foolhardy exercises like the one featured in the OP. When the jeuvenile delinquents or adults engaged in jeuvenile delinquent behavior ride their bycycles off the roof into the pool, light their farts with a match or ride their skateboard down the street being pulled by a motorcycle it is usually seen as brave or "big balled," by other sophmores, but generally stupid by adults.

This isn't a matter of "You weren't there, you don't know!", we all were there, Fatty made sure of it. I make more mistakes than most, the difference between myself and fatty is I don't play by play have it on video and if I did, I always take the opportunity to edit before I broadcast.

Fatty eh? What name would you call him if he was in a wheelchair?

Theres been quite a bit of video made over the years featuring fellows engaged in all kinds of foolhardy exercises like the one featured in the OP. When the jeuvenile delinquents or adults engaged in jeuvenile delinquent behavior ride their bycycles off the roof into the pool, light their farts with a match or ride their skateboard down the street being pulled by a motorcycle it is usually seen as brave or "big balled," by other sophmores, but generally stupid by adults.

This isn't a matter of "You weren't there, you don't know!", we all were there, Fatty made sure of it. I make more mistakes than most, the difference between myself and fatty is I don't play by play have it on video and if I did, I always take the opportunity to edit before I broadcast.[/QUOTE]


So, Scot what in your opinion did 'Fatty' do wrong, my observation being if the buff didnt move its head and get it in the horn, that spear was headed for vitals.

One of the original guys to film hunts for public view..... Fred Bear Historical Hunting Footage
[see his brief Grizzly hunt footage from about 5.56]

..and Fred with his Lion.





A short time after his encounter with the lions of Portuguese Africa in 1965, he recalled the story like this:


“I eased to my knees and picked up my bow. There were two lions, both big-maned males lying beside the wildebeest carcass. Quietly as I moved, they saw me instantly, stopped feeding and stared balefully at the blind.

“One was broadside to me, with his head turned in my direction. The other lay behind him facing us head on. I picked the closest one and drove my arrow for a spot behind his shoulder.

“There wasn’t enough light to follow the arrow’s flight but the lion left no doubt that it had been hit. He ripped out a roaring blood chilling snarl and both animals sprang to their feet. The rear one shot off to the left running in long bounds. The other curved hell-bent toward the blind, growling and roaring But when he was only yards away, he swerved off to the left and streaked past
within a few feet of us. The last we heard of him was an ear-splitting roar out in the gathering darkness.

“For another 10 minutes; there was dead silence, with five pairs of ears straining for some sound that would tell us where the lions had gone and what they were doing. When it was full dark one of the pair announced his return with a roar that came from no more than 20 yards away and rattled the very leaves of the blind

“One thing we knew for sure. If either lion was bent on revenge, our brush blind would no more stop him than a garden fence stops a hungry deer. He wouldn’t even have to smash through it. He’d come sailing over and the last we’d see of him would be his black silhouette against the faint light that still lingered in the sky.

“There was half an hour of agonizing silence. Nobody moved, spoke, coughed or even cleared his throat My legs were getting stiff and cramped but it was imperative to endure it without stirring. It was cold but no one so much as touched his blanket Tension and suspense filled the blind like fog.

The lion ripped the night apart once more with a long series of roars and snarls, again only a few yards beyond our barricade. I’ve heard bears, tigers and even elephants scream their anger and defiance, and any one of them can make the hair on a man’s neck stand up like porcupine quills. But I don’t believe any other sound that comes from an animal’s throat is as awesome and frightening as the roar of a lion close up.

Another half an hour went by, seeming like half the night. Then the situation took a new turn.
A lion spoke up from half a mile away giving the half purring half moaning get-together call and another answered farther off in the distance. I had listened to those typical sounds of the African night before and thought them interesting and thrilling. Now they turned my blood to water. Our lion didn’t give us much time to worry about any other, however he let go another bone-shaking roar.

After a few minutes, the lion roared again. The silence settled down and nothing happened for an hour. At the end of that time, Luiz (one of the native guides) inched over to our side of the blind.
“Baas, I can hear lion eating,” he said. ” I think he feed on the dead one.”

We cocked our ears and sure enough we could hear the ripping of flesh and the clicking of teeth out there in the dark, 50 or 60 feet away.

For the first time we had something to go on. It was very unlikely that a wounded lion would be feeding and if this was the unwounded one, quarrelsome as he was, we were in less danger than we had feared. But if Luiz’s hunch was right by morning, the pelt of my lion would be torn and worthless.

“Will one lion really eat another?” I asked Wally, my guide. “Indeed they will,” he assured me.

By this time the tension in the blind had become too much for the native guides to bear, and they issued the ultimatum of either climbing the trees or going back to camp. Knowing that the trees would not support the three natives, and that any commotion was likely to bring on a charge from the lion, Freds party decided to make a break for it in the car.

Taking nothing but the guns with them, they piled into the car, stomped on the starter and knifed out into the African darkness.

“To my immense relief,” Fred continued, “the first thing we found when we went back the next morning was what was left of the python (shot the day before by Fred while making the blind). We agreed that it might have been the snake on which we had heard the lion feeding and our hunch proved good. When we picked up the blood trail of the lion I hit and followed it for 200 yards,
we found a magnificent cat stone dead since the evening before. Needless to say, I didn’t give the python another thought “My arrow had gone in low, back of a foreleg and ranged through both lungs, causing severe hemorrhage. A full-grown male with a heavy mane, he weighed 460 pounds and measured an even 10 feet pegged out.

“Looking back on those thrilling hours in the blind, with the lion growling and feeding in the darkness, I couldn’t blame the guides for not wanting to lion hunt again. But when I got back to camp, and I saw him reaching four feet above my head with the tip of his tail brushing the ground, I knew I wouldn’t trade that night for anything that ever happened to me on a hunt He was the greatest trophy I have killed, and he left me, as a bowhunter, no place to go.”

Love those old Bear movies, especially the Negley one. Legendary.

Please don't compare real hunters like Fred Beaqr to those we see on youtube trying to shoot a drugged lion.

Fred was a REAL hunter who enjoyed hunting for what it was in his time.

Our interpid attention getters, the "look how brave I am crowd" are nothing of the sort.