I thought we were making some headway yesterday when he got back with me about re-scheduling the hunt next year for a very small increase based on his raw cost increase and he was going to apply my $4500 credit towards that hunt. I was fine with that. Then I recieved an email later saying he had made a mistake and that he needed to charge me for the pre-bait and the PH's pay that he already committed to which totaled over two grand. I have emailed back saying this was totally unacceptable and would not work. Waiting for the reply. I am going to give him a little bit of time to make this right before posting his name. Once the cat is out of the bag I am sure that there is no way I am going to see my deposit.

Mac

quote:

Once the cat is out of the bag I am sure that there is no way I am going to see my deposit.

Have you contacted NAPHA?

Not yet....

Mac

He wants to charge you pre bait fee's for a leopard hunt that he doesn't have tag for? Charge you PH fee's for a hunt that you won't be on, based on him not getting the leopard permit ahead of time as many other outfitters in Namibia did.

I wish you all the luck and hopefully it will shake out in the end.

McKay,

His answer is so unbelieveable, unreasonable, and unprofessional, I am almost ecpecting him to jump up and yell "Surprise!! April fools! only joking McKay!"

If you don't call NAPHA, post his name here, and threaten his ass, please give me a call because I have a good deal for you regarding a bridge in Brooklyn....

Good Luck my friend!!

I may be wrong but most of those professional groups have no teeth and will not be able to help you. Again the cleansing light of day. His second reply was too funny if it wasn't so serious.

It is like a guy saying you owed him for sleeping with his wife and you say I didn't and he says she was there.

TJ needs to learn the difference between a booking agent and an outfitter. This guy, seems to me, did as you suggest and went"PH DIRECT" A good agent would be a ton of leverage in this situation.

Yes I went PH direct. He is the owner and operator of the company.

Mac

I would not think so. I don't think I have ever seen them post on AR...

I may well be mistaken, but didn't I recently read a response from a Namibia P.H. who said that pre-baiting was illegal? Maybe that was Zambia???

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
I may well be mistaken, but didn't I recently read a response from a Namibia P.H. who said that pre-baiting was illegal? Maybe that was Zambia???

Pre-baiting is legal in Namibia.

Depends how the hunt was sold; was (pre)bait included in the price (package)or extra per animal on top of the Leopard price?

quote:

Originally posted by nampom:

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
I may well be mistaken, but didn't I recently read a response from a Namibia P.H. who said that pre-baiting was illegal? Maybe that was Zambia???

Pre-baiting is legal in Namibia.

Depends how the hunt was sold; was (pre)bait included in the price (package)or extra per animal on top of the Leopard price?

Ain't AR great. I asked a question this morning and shortly after noon get a response from someone knowledgable on the ground in Namibia!

Thanks for the info, Roger! ... and for the semi-forgotten reference about Botswana, Charles. Age has its pitfalls, I reckon... alas.

quote:

Age has its pitfalls, I reckon... alas.

It beats heck out of the alternative.

As a matter of fact I think I do know the difference between an agent, outfitter and PH. Now, if you throw a hunting consultant in the mix I might get a bit confused.
I can also read....first post, second sentence...."my contract with the outfitter".
The comment about the lawyer was a joke. I guess some didn't find it very funny.

pre-bait was a line item on the contract.

Mac

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
pre-bait was a line item on the contract.

Mac

So, I guess that the P.H. was pre-baiting for a leopard for which he "hoped" to get a license?

Has the P.H. explained why he had no license such a short time before your expected arrival? If you were to arrive on the 24th, and the moritorium on licenses was sent out about the 15th of June, I wonder if the P.H. had really been pre-baiting more than 10 days prior to your arrival?

Lots of questions???

McKay,

I have been following this thread very closely as I am looking at a Leopard in Namibia for 2010 and am interested to see how this year may affect things moving forward.

Have you made any progress with the outfitter/PH on this matter?

Recieved an email back yesterday. He stated that the hunters agreement stated that the deposit was non-refundable, and that he still wants to work something out and that he does not want me to get upset. I replied back that I understand what the agreement said, however I think that the bigger issue is that the agreement was for a leopard hunt, at a scheduled time, for a scheduled price and that he was unable to provide me with a hunt per the agreement, simple as that. I said that I hope you are able to find it in you to do the right thing and refund my money or I will be getting very upset. He said that he is leaving on a hunt today and will be away for two weeks. So I might not hear anything back until then.

Mac

Sounds like you should roast the guy. He doesn't want to give your money back, can't do the leopard at agreed price this year, and won't next year.

I really think you should expose him here and in The Hunting Report, so others never deal with him. Might want to tell him you are going to do that first and see if that helps with the deposit, but we all need to know who this operator is- so none of us ever send him $...

Email him this thread as a last attempt. I promise you he is checking email every few days at the minimum, wherever he may be, even if through a third party. Good luck!

He tells you in an email that he's leaving on a hunt today, June 30. You were originally scheduled to fly out on June 24, so you'd probably have started your ill-fated leopard hunt on June 26. Seems like he moved on pretty quick from the hunt he cancelled on you to something else.

I think he just doesn't want to have to respond to your emails for a couple of weeks. This is sounding more and more suspect to all of us.

We can make all kinds of suggestions for McKay, but he has some real bucks invested here. He's stated that once he released the name or the P.H., he'll probably never see his money again and there may be some truth to that. However, if the guy shows up at SCI or Dallas SC, he may rue the day he entered the U.S.

That considered, I just can't imagine the reasoning process of a guy who thinks that he can fail to timely get a permit and rely on his own failure to keep a deposit, regardless of any "unrefundable" clause or not.

I think he is making a big mistake. If he already was pre baiting, which animals he has already use and how much was his real cost for those baits ?? Your hunt was going to start at least the 26th..when he told you about this problem ??

I'm sure he didn't spent 4,500 bucks shooting bait animals...

The goverment cancelation maybe wasn´t his fault but he is responsable infront of you.

Many of you can explain me lots of laws and legal theories about this incident, but there is only one way of doing things between gentlemen......the correct one.

L

McKay, I think you are being screwed. If your outfitter/ PH had your name and address well before the 15th of June, he should have had a permit for you. Thus, he is liable for a full refund, as he cannot deliver. If he did not have that details before that, I understand why he did not have a permit for you. You did not perhaps book through a South African outfit to hunt Namibia?

quote:

Just one more reason I will not use an Outfitter. When you do that you just insert another entity with their hand in your pocket, and if a problem occurs, another entity to deal with.
Book directly with the PH.

TJ, it seems that there is a misconception surrounding the meaning of outfitter. A hunting company / guest farm/ hunting farm in Namibia all are "outfitters". In RSA and Zim you have to work thorugh a outfitter (just our name for a hunting company really) for your hunt arrangements.
If booking directly thorugh a "freelance PH", you probably expose yourself more to these kind of risks than any other way.
I think that the outfitter in question neglected to get a permit in time (though there might be a valid reason), and now does not have the money/ cash flow to pay McKay back.

I think a point being missed here is that regardless of who you book your hunt with; an outfitter or direct with a PH.

You have absolutely no guarantees if the person you are deaing with is a crook.

And there are crooks in both professions.

Back to the subject at hand.

I am going to be the devil's advocate.

McKay has been giving us all the information he is getting from his side of the argument - and I have absolutely no way to doubt his words - but if we do not get the name of the individual he is dealing with, there will always be a doubt as to what he has been telling us.

McKay,

Help me with this one. Your hunt was booked as a "leopard with HOUNDS." Where does prebaiting fit into the picture?

Sorry to say, its pretty clear you are dealing with a crook. It must be unbelievably frustrating for you.

Please write the post naming this scoundrel, and wait 24 hours. If it seems like a good idea the next day, post away. I would love to know who to avoid.

Best of luck to you

Unfortunatly, it would appear that this guy (PH) no longer has any of the $4500.00 left and therefore is unable to refund it. Another classic example of a person trying to "operate" a business with little or no capital and is probably using customer deposits to pay for previous hunts operating exspenses.

I hope everything works out and you get your money back.

CTJ

Jack D Bold:

It could be easier to have a cat eating from a tree and see if the spoor is big enough and let the dogs start their search from the tree, instead of searching all around Namibia for a nice track.. Next trip for leopard i will do prebaiting and dogs..NO MISTAKES NEXT TIME

PLEASE NAME NAMES! I do not want to find myself booking with this guy! Do not go on a plains game hunt with this idiot with the promise of a future leopard hunt. He is already screwing you today and will continue to do so if you present yourself as an easy mark. In the best case version of this situation, the outfitter has spent your deposit before obtaining the necessary permits. BAD GUY to hunt with! Worst case is the outfitter is trying to prop up his revenue in a bad year plain and simple. I doubt very seriously he has paid a PH to do this hunt already. You might ask him for contact information for this mythical PH so you can confirm what he has paid to them. I'm sure that will get him thinking of some excuse that the PH is "on a hunt" for the next couple months and can't be reached.

I also noticed that there have been some comments here about you booking "PH direct" as though a booking agent might have helped in this scenario. Frankly, I don't think I can think of one recent thread on AR where a booking agent has really gone to bat against his outfitter for a client. I can however think of plenty of examples where the Agent has raked the client over the coals after the fact (bad hunt, miscommunication re: hunt etc.).

quote:

Help me with this one. Your hunt was booked as a "leopard with HOUNDS." Where does prebaiting fit into the picture?

Jack D Bold, most outfitters (there is that word again...) use pre-bait even if the hunt is with dogs. It is easier to check for fresh tracks at a bait, and if the cat has fed, he normally has a better "smell" for the dogs to follow, and because his belly is full (hopefully, as they sometimes only eat very little the first sitting), the dogs are more likely to catch up with him.

I recieved an email from an AR member in regards to the outfitters/safari operators name. He indicated to me that he searched my history on AR and I made some inquiries on two Leopard hunts in the past. The two names I inquired about were SMJ Safaris, and Erindi. I just wanted to let everyone know that niether of these were who the hunt was booked with. One of the reasons I have not released the name because I have a friend on the ground in Namibia hunting with this outfitter right now. He booked with me to go do a plainsgame hunt at the same time and he went on his trip. So I don't want to mess things up on the ground with him in the field. This is his first safari and as bad as the circumstances are with my hunt I don't want to mess anything up with him. As far as the inquires as to how long the outfitter has had my information and could have got a permit in my name. I booked this hunt on February 9th, 2008. My first hunting day was going to be June 28th 2009. I questioned him in a recent email why he had not applied for my permit earlier. He told the permit office of the ministry will not let you apply for a permit until 4 to 6 weeks before the client arrives. On one of the couple occasions that I got them on the phone when I heard that Leopard permits were suspended here on AR I asked them if they got my permit. I am almost positive they told me that they applied for my permit on the 12th of June (I don't have this in writing) and they were going to call to see if it went through. I recieved an email back stating that it had not. They did not know that Leopard had been shut down until I read the post about it on the 16th and called them.

Thanks
Mac

quote:

He told the permit office of the ministry will not let you apply for a permit until 4 to 6 weeks before the client arrives.

Sorry, he is lying.

Here is a permit that was issued more than 6 MONTHS ahead of time.


You can apply for a current year's permit anytime during that year, 5 days or more before the start of the hunt, only when all your paperwork of the previous year is in order, and you have paid your insurance/ renew your first aid certificate/ paid your new permit etc.

Thanks Karl, even though I don't see Leopard listed on this permit I would assume the timeline would be the same?
Thanks

McKay, here is the same hunter's leopard permit:



The timeline is the same, but leopard, cheetah and lion has to be applied for seperately.

I'm a bit confused here. In your first post you said your hunt was scheduled to start on Wednesday 24th and later you say he's told you that he's going hunting for 2 weeks and will be out of touch.

Either he's double booked you or he's resold your dates...........

My first post stated that I was leaving on the 24th. (Flying out of Salt Lake City, UT) Yes I would assume the same thing. I know he has some low-fence ranch hunting and some other areas which I believe are tribal or governmnet concessions. I know he has at least one other PH besides himself or possibly more, maybe freelance PH's? He was the one who was going to be my PH because he also runs his own dogs. My friend was to have one of his other PH's. I would have to think he already re-booked a hunt or now told one of his other PH's he has no work for him now and is doing that hunt himself.

Mac

OK, sorry I forgot your travel dates. oops.

But if he's telling you he's already paid or committed to paying the other PH, surely he'd then put him to work hunting your buddy. At least then he could stay home to answer your emails and get the matter sorted out.

I'd be very suprised if he's paid the other PH and then sent him home and done the hunt himself.

In the email he sent when discussing the PH salary and pre-baiting Fees he could not refund he said the PH salary was $1875.00. I don't know about him enough or this other PH to find out if he was paid or not. Like you I would see no reasoning for doing that.

Mac

Karl I just noticed your second post with the Leopard permit. Thanks for that, it may help.

Mac