As a few of you may have read in the other post in regards to Leopard being shut down in Naminia for the season I was schedueled to go on a Leopard hunt leaving this Wednesday the 24th of June. My contract with the outfitter is written as a Leopard with Hounds hunt with no plainsgame mentioed on it. I put down about a $4500 deposit on this hunt. Now that Leopard is off the menu the outfitter is saying that they cannot give me my deposit back and that I should come hunt plainsgame instead. I'm am really not interested in hunting plainsgame only. The contract says there is a 40% non-refundable deposit. However I would think this should be non-refundable if I cancelled the hunt not because of the circumstances. Please let me know your opinions on this......Thanks

If you booked a leopard hunt and he cannot deliver the hunt then it is up to him to either offer you another hunt that is ACCEPTABLE to you or to carry over the hunt till next year ,or refund your deposit.

I should have posted that. Last week I said I would come on the plainsgame hunt only if they would carry the Leopard hunt over to 10' or 11'. I have other plans in the works for next year. They came back and said that they could not hold the pricing on the leopard for a future hunt.

They should refund in full if they cannot deliver.

Two years ago when Tanzania jacked up their rates in mid-season we cancelled with 3 weeks notice and got a full refund from Wendell (actually we went to Zim instead).

Shot the .500 yet????

Les

No not yet....was prepping for this hunt.

It's a difficult one in some ways.

As I see it, they can no longer provide the hunt that was agreed in the contract. and if they can't do that, they have to cancel it.

Logic therefore asks what your contract says with regard to what happens in the event they have to cancel the hunt?

There's also presumably the question about what happens to your flight reservations/costs etc.

The contract does not say anything in regards to a cancellation. Only the 40% non-refundable deposit. I think I will loose about $900 if I cancel flights.

Who is the outfitter?

D. Nelson

If they cant deliver or even try = FULL refund !

That's what I would assume.....but you know what they say about that....

I want to give them the opportunity to make this right before I post thier name....

You should get ALL of your money back.

Who is the outfitter????

Another example of why you should always book with a reputable booking agent here in the states!

They can't provide the hunt contracted for - full refund.

I would assume the 40% non-refundable deposit only applies in case YOU cancelled.

If they have cancelled, I would assume they would have given you full refund.

Now it gets a bit murky.

The cancellation was done by the government, and was only done recently.

So on would assume any outfitter worth his salts would have obtained the permit at the time of the booking.

As others seem to have their permits in hand.

You mentioned that you would not mind going on a plains game hunt this year, provided they would get you a leopard hunt in 2010 or 2011.

It would not be reasonable to get them to guarantee you a price that you have already agreed on for this year.

So why don't you go on a plains game hunt this year, avoiding the loss of part of your depositi - not to mention the airline tickets.

And try to make a deal or a future leopard hunt?

that is the stance I am taking with them.....

I have tried to roll this leopard hunt to the next year or two and they said no based on cost increases they have claimed. I just figure why go all that way just to hunt plainsgame when it is always avalable on dangerous game hunts? In my mind there is a huge difference in hunting dangerous game and plainsgame.

I'd bet we'll see a fair number of blustering comments here on what seems or doesn't seem fair etc, but frankly, none of that matters.

What matters is what's in the contract, and the fact that the contract doesn't say anything about what happens in the event they have to cancel, suggest that (at least partly) you didn't do your homework before you made the booking. It also suggests the outfitter might need to review their contracts & cancellation policies. (Maybe you should have visited www.shakariconnection.com whilst you were doing your research. )

So, let's try to find a way to get this solved. Id suggest you contact the outfitter by email and try to negotiate something that's mutually agreeable. First suggestions would be a carry over to 2010, a replacement (DG?) hunt this year
or a full refund.

Perhaps they could check with the GD to see if any other companies out there have a licence but a client who has cancelled? Alternatively, if you can't agree anything, you could contact the NPHA and ask them for advice and help in getting the issue settled.

At the end of the day, neither of you want to argue, and both of you should want come to some kind of mutually satisfactory conclusion to this.

I'll also add that they were also at fault in not obtaining your licence when they were available and in plenty of time for your hunt.

Good luck with it anyway!

I do not know the rules in Namibia, but the rules in South Africa are very clear: A Hunting Outfitter may NOT offer anything to hunt unless he already has all the permissions and paperwork required to hunt it.

If it was in South Africa you would have been able to make a formal complaint with the relevant Provincial Nature Conservation authority and have them prosecute the Hunting Outfitter. Once guiilty of an illegal act your claim for a full refund wuld be very strong.

With Leopard being a CITES species I assume the same/similar rule will apply in Namibia. Can one of the Namibia Outfitters clear this up and say for sure if it was illegal to offer a hunt for a leopard without having a permit beforehand?

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

McKay,

You are definetly overthinking this...they cancelled your hunt, end of story!
You don't really want to hunt plainsgame so what else is there to talk about?

Who is this outfitter? You are giving them a "chance to make this right". Why? They are already screwing you by not giving you back your money for a hunt that they are not able to provide...think about this.

If this was my hunt I would be going crazy by now, and it pisses me off just reading about the stance they are taking with you.

I think your P.H. is not using his brain very well. He stands to lose much more than the deposit in good will and bad publicity.

I wonder what part of the deposit was supposed to go to the price and effort of timely obtaining a leopard permit, which, obviously, the P.H. never accomplished... or you wouldn't have a problem.

I hope the fellow wakes up before his name is disclosed. You are kind to give him the chance.

Thanks for you input Shakari. However I guess I just want to take the stance that the contract was for a Leopard this year. I have asked to roll over the pricing to next year and they are saying that the concession and permit fees are going up 400% so they can't hold the price. Seems to me pretty simple they can't hold up the contract so I should get my money back.

Saeed's comment is pretty much valid.
The GDs in african countries have a habit of raising fees at the 11th hour (Tanzania was a recent example)where the
outfitter cannot really be held liable for someone else's totally irresponsible way of thinking.
These issues can only be tackled at later stages (again, as was done in TZ) where the cats in particular were reduced from the
ridiculous figures initially imposed to ones within reason.
So as not to bin your program for 2009 entirely, I can only suggest you try and fix yourself a DG with plains-game at a mutually convenient
cost and maintain an amicable relationship with the outfitter for a future Leopard hunt.

I can understand why they might be reluctant to carry over to 2010, esp if Govt fees are going up, in which case you might like to ask them if they can provide an alternative DG hunt this year and if they can't it strikes me that a full refund isn't unreasonable........ If they decline this might be a case of your going to the NPHA for assistance. That said, you might like to wait for comment from one of the Namibia operators.

FWIW, I think you're quite right in keeping the outfitters name confidential until the matter is settled one way or another. Going public at this point isn't gonna benefit anyone.

FWIW, you might find these links useful next time:

http://www.shakariconnection.com/hunt-contract.html

http://www.shakariconnection.c.../sample-contract.pdf

My feeling on this – being both a buyer as well as more often a seller - is that in this situation the seller is the presumed “expert”, the “professional”, and likely they have represented themselves as such (per emails, webpage and/or brochures).

Given this, it is reasonable to expect that they should have been previously aware of the potential that leopard permits may be restricted and become unavailable during the season, as other Namibian hunting professionals apparently were. This was not a sudden change in government policy, as has occurred in other countries, but it was known that there are a limit to the number of leopard permits issued and if/once exhausted there would be no more available for the year.

As such, it was their responsibility as the professionals to either procure the permits ahead of time for their hunters as other hunting companies have apparently done (which means that this is indeed possible, and they are not distributed on a “first come first serve” basis) - or advise their customers of this potential situation and stipulate exactly how they propose to handle it before accepting a booking.

The assumption is per your posts that you had no such knowledge of this possibility before booking - and that perhaps they didn’t either (or they did and for whatever reason they did not address, which either demonstrates a problem on their end or an attempt to mislead customers).

In any case, and assuming they were NOT looking to mislead their customers, they should be apologizing profusely for putting you in this situation, and be looking for any way possible to make this right for you. Not the other way around.

I am not proposing a “confrontation” nor that you should not look to work something comfortable out with the seller, but an awareness and reminder of the circumstances surrounding this situation may be in order. But…I do not think I would feel good about hunting plainsgame or anything else with a company who made this “my problem”, and who did not accept responsibility for their failure to act and/or advise their customers before booking accordingly. Yes Africa is full of potential issues that may screw up a hunt, many hit from out of nowhere and we as hunters must accept this fact, but some are forseeable and I think this was one.

I wish you best luck in resolving this!

quote:

Who is this outfitter? You are giving them a "chance to make this right". Why? They are already screwing you by not giving you back your money for a hunt that they are not able to provide...think about this.

+1

Seloushunter

quote:

I'd bet we'll see a fair number of blustering comments here on what seems or doesn't seem fair etc, but frankly, none of that matters.

What matters is what's in the contract, and the fact that the contract doesn't say anything about what happens in the event they have to cancel, suggest that (at least partly) you didn't do your homework before you made the booking. It also suggests the outfitter might need to review their contracts & cancellation policies. (Maybe you should have visited www.shakariconnection.com whilst you were doing your research. )

If I contract in writing to sell you a car, and you pay me a deposit, then I say "Just kidding -- I'm keeping your money but not delivering the car" are you suggesting you would have no recourse?

Charles,

I'm suggesting the direct opposite...... Hence my comments about having a proper/comprehensive contract with a detailed cancellation policy.

Note the cancellation clause in my second link here: http://www.shakariconnection.c.../sample-contract.pdf

McKay, there is nothing so cleansing as the light of day. Protect others by exposing this outfitter. He has had his chance to make this right by a simple refund not some round and a round. This is typical shim sham by a less than reputable operator, there is NO excuse for this type of action.

I would say they owe you a full refund.

This is a good example of why I use a booking agent.

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:
I do not know the rules in Namibia, but the rules in South Africa are very clear: A Hunting Outfitter may NOT offer anything to hunt unless he already has all the permissions and paperwork required to hunt it.

If it was in South Africa you would have been able to make a formal complaint with the relevant Provincial Nature Conservation authority and have them prosecute the Hunting Outfitter. Once guiilty of an illegal act your claim for a full refund wuld be very strong.

With Leopard being a CITES species I assume the same/similar rule will apply in Namibia. Can one of the Namibia Outfitters clear this up and say for sure if it was illegal to offer a hunt for a leopard without having a permit beforehand?

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

The same rule does not apply in Namibia; you can sell the hunt DG or Plains game and then apply for the permits at a later stage.

I sincerely hope you and the outfitter can come to an agreement that works for both of you.

Wow , didn't take long for the sharks to appear once the blood hit the water!!

McKay, I think you are wise not to mention the outfitter at this stage of the game and see how things play out. I would agree that an effort by both sides to come to some kind of mutual agreement is best for all concerned. I do however believe that if a hunt that satisfies your original intent is not made available that you should indeed receive a full refund. Check with the Namibia outfitters association and seek their advice on this matter as well. They are a fair bunch of folks and never really like to see and hear about disatisfied customers. Good luck and keep us posted.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Seems pretty clear cut. A refund is due.

This is a good example of why cancellation insurance is a good idea.

Nobody ever expects the unexpected ...

I hope you have a good honest booking agent. If you do this would not be a problem.
You deserve your money back.

I just cannot believe the "let's give him a chance to make this right" attitude of some of you here regarding McKay's PH.

The PH has already made it WRONG by refusing to refund his clients deposit for a HUNT THAT HE IS NOT ABLE TO DELIVER. The refusal is an insight into the way this PH thinks and conducts business--end of story. If it were me, just based on the PH's refusal to issue me my refund, I wouldn't want to hunt with him anyway.

Damm, it's not even my money and this pisses me off!

I would love to see the outfitter called out on this one as well. If he can't provide the hunt, even due too uncontrollable circumstances, he should give a full refund. It is borderline bait and switch. If you can't supply the product- then refund the money, no questions asked.
I do understand them not honoring the price for a future date- I don't like it, but I do understand it. Hunting rates are going off the charts. I have researched outfitters that have increased 40 % from one year to the next. Whether the increases are truly cost driven, I really don't know, but I hope we continue to see the bargain hunt boards full- it is a supply and demand industry, it looks like the tide is turning.
Good luck resolving your problem- hopefully you have some recourse if things don't go your way.

quote:

Seems pretty clear cut. A refund is due.

This is a good example of why cancellation insurance is a good idea.

Nobody ever expects the unexpected ...

well said wendell i agree

I was under the impression that if you use an outfitter, you were protected from this sort of a problem.???
You might check with Old Ray, I understand he has a good firm of lawyers, Dewy, Cheatem and Howe.
The outfitter owes you the money. Period. You contracted for a service, he was unable to provide the service. The fact that the guvment did no give the permit is his problem, not yours.
Is the outfitter in Africa or USA? If he is in Africa, your screwed. If he is in USA, your option is a lawsuit.
Just one more reason I will not use an Outfitter. When you do that you just insert another entity with their hand in your pocket, and if a problem occurs, another entity to deal with.
Book directly with the PH.
Yea, I know I just stepped in the rice bowl of all the outfitters here. I apologize to the good ones who provide a needed service. To the others who are just in it for the money, tough nuge.

Wow some will reach any where to get Ray involved. It appears some people (with great wisdom) don't know the difference between a booking agent, outfitter and PH.