"It is important to us to ensure our clients a fair chase hunt. We track and hunt all Lions on foot, with emphasis on Ethical Hunting. Lion Hunting is not for the fainthearted. Book your Lion hunt with Gotsoma Safaris and enjoy The Ultimate Hunting Experience. "

Via Facebook-

Adrian de Guisti: Available for hunting. Contact Gotsoma Safaris www.gotsoma.co.za



Is that a fence behind that lion? Will be a short foot hunt, eh?

Some more photos

http://www.gotsoma.co.za/Gallery.htm

Is that a jaguar? Do a lot of the buffalo look soft?

Meh...

Disgusting really..

A jaguar and a tiger killed in South Africa. How exciting that must have been.

But I thought we were suppose to stick together and support all types of 'hunting'......as long as it is legal where it is......right?

How depressing.

That is so sad & depressing. I grew up with stories of my dad shooting tigers in the thick dark jungles of south India and this is not at all what I ever hoped to see!

That original picture does show a fence in the background with another lion sitting on the ground (partly hidden by trees) next to the fence.

Forget the fence. What’s on the tree? Christmas lights?

If we're not careful this is the only type of hunting in sub-Saharan Africa that we will be left with.

"...We search the world for exceptional trophies, so our clients only shoot the very best, highest scoring trophies in the SCI Record Book..."

I have seen the above as well.

Sadly, the facts say something else.

we had a rather contentious thread over this just a few weeks ago. IIRC, there were at least twenty posters on that one that took me to task for trying to define ethical. Wasn't their rallying cry "if it's legal, I'll do it"? I would think this is the best deal out there for those gentle souls.

Rich
DRSS

Shameful

One can hardly EVER see such a lion in the wild nowadays.

Sadly, I keep hearing more and more of farm bred lions being trucked, even to other countries, to be shot by the "trophy" minded brigade.

And they they claim they do not know what is going on!

I guess as long as all this is taken care of, it is legal.....?

DOHA, Qatar, March 22, 2010 (ENS) - Countries could begin treating illegal trade in tiger parts as seriously as they treat arms and drug trafficking under a deal reached today at the triennial meeting of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species, CITES.

Parties to the CITES treaty agreed to develop a database to help monitor the illegal trade in tiger, leopard and snow leopard parts.

Although all commercial tiger trade has been banned by CITES since 1987, wild tiger populations have dropped by about half since the ban took effect.

I count 25 lioness and 13 male lion in their gallery...... That is 38 or so gullible ( ) hunters that fell for the "Fair chase and ethical" spew on their home page! Perhaps we should get the AR Police () to flood their email inbox with disdain for wrongful advertizing and bringing the industry into disrepute - cc PHASA.

Thats just wrong 99.9% of the Buffalo in that gallery are far too young. You may aswell just shoot a cow because thats how the horns will turn out once boiled.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
But I thought we were suppose to stick together and support all types of 'hunting'......as long as it is legal where it is......right?

How depressing.

This is definitly not hunting or something like hunting.

What no tyrranosaurs or velociraptors???? I guess the canned hunting industry hasn't "progressed" that far!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
"It is important to us to ensure our clients a fair chase hunt. We track and hunt all Lions on foot, with emphasis on Ethical Hunting. Lion Hunting is not for the fainthearted. Book your Lion hunt with Gotsoma Safaris and enjoy The Ultimate Hunting Experience. "

Via Facebook-

Adrian de Guisti: Available for hunting. Contact Gotsoma Safaris www.gotsoma.co.za



Is that a fence behind that lion? Will be a short foot hunt, eh?

Some more photos

http://www.gotsoma.co.za/Gallery.htm

Is that a jaguar? Do a lot of the buffalo look soft?

Ann it is a surpize to see you

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
One can hardly EVER see such a lion in the wild nowadays.

Sadly, I keep hearing more and more of farm bred lions being trucked, even to other countries, to be shot by the "trophy" minded brigade.

And they they claim they do not know what is going on!

Saeed - How about some facts, names and exact info regarding these "so-called" trucked lions to other countries?? The only place I keep hearing that rumor is from you! If your friends have some facts, names and info, have them provide it, otherwise its just another rumor doing nothing but spreading false info, that could negatively impact operators, clients, and the trophy lion itself, simply because some always want to believe the worst.

Some folks on AR jumped all over the Moz lion from Sabie a few weeks ago, while having no factual info, or even any idea where Sabie is, and the lions that could and have for years, come from that general location of Moz.

quote:

Sadly, I keep hearing more and more of farm bred lions being trucked, even to other countries, to be shot by the "trophy" minded brigade.

I thought I heard that Smokepole & Scoundrel got caught doing something like that?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Sadly, I keep hearing more and more of farm bred lions being trucked, even to other countries, to be shot by the "trophy" minded brigade.

I thought I heard that Smokepole & Scoundrel got caught doing something like that?

Never heard that! Fairly certain that is not factual. Where???

has anyone counted the number of game ranches here in the U.S.A. that offer the same thing. IMHO we should start cleaning house in our own back yard or front yard in some case's Colorado and Texas come to mind as places you have a large number of fenced hunts offered. one guy here in Missouri thought I was crazy for going to Uganda to hunt. His statement(I can get you a bufflao and I bet it would be cheaper than going all the way to Africa)

If a cape buffalo may be had in the USA I have never heard of such an operation nor lion for that matter.

Buffalo unimpressive to say the least.

the offer was made to me 6 wks ago. face to face with the manager of the operation

ddrhook I'm not calling Bullshit but send me a PM with the name of the operation cause I've never heard of any in the USA offering them, don't know how they could be raised here with all the ailments they carry. I do think the manager whom told you this is full of buff shit though.

I won't partake of one of those hunts in Africa. I have never gone on a fenced hunt in Texas and never will. If you look at things it is probably the Texas exotic business, which started way back in the early 1900's that fueled the whole thing globally.

I know there are Texas ranches with buffalo as I have seen it in adds before, but I didn't think they were getting hunted. On the other hand the 'canned' big cats hunt were happening a long time ago in Texas..........lions, tigers, jaguars, whatever you wanted. It was a real hot topic in the media for a while and it was even on the evening news with some tyro hammering a black jaguar released from a cage in Texas.

If the huge demand was not there in the US, all of those Texas game ranches and similar businesses would not have survived or become so popular elsewhere. Everytime I see a picture of some guy with a 400+ elk killed on a Saskatchewan elk farm it makes me want to puke.

Make sure you cut off the ear tags before you take the pictures.

Hey Skyline
Texas, and some very progressive ranchers who spent a hell of a lot of their own money to ensure they they got here in the first place, are the only reason some African animals are not extinct. Canned , no chance hunts..hell yes I am not supporting that behavior, but be careful talking crap about all high fence operations. They are not all the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Degas:
ddrhook I'm not calling Bullshit but send me a PM with the name of the operation cause I've never heard of any in the USA offering them, don't know how they could be raised here with all the ailments they carry. I do think the manager whom told you this is full of buff shit though.

http://www.777ranch.com/photo-galleries.html

Exotics - Horned (page 4).

I was not talking crap about all high fenced operations and suggesting they all are canned situations.........just commenting on how it all probably started. Lots of the Texas stuff and the southern African stuff started by guys trying to raise species in need of help. They started selling hunts to help pay the bills........etc, etc, etc. On the other hand the cat canned hunts is a well know fact.........but again I didn't say everyone was doing it.

As I said it was a general comment about the fenced hunting and how it all started. Thousands of US hunters grew up with hunting behind fence and it is a normal thing for them. I was trying not to write a novel on it.

Dave
your right some of them are very good outfits and are of great value. but like all business's there are a few shady one around to. you know one of my friend who has a great place down there (TEXAS)

quote:

Ann it is a surpize to see you

Ann, I am surprised as well. you must be getting bored. Time for you to cut down more trees eh!

That's true Dave.

I had my jaguar convertible in at the dealership for service the past week. Behind their chain link security fence they had three different kinds of Jaguars, and in six different colors.
They did have one thing in common though; they WERE all behind this big fence, and they were only going out thru one gate.

Absurd, perhaps; but it makes the point. Any animal behind a tall fence is only going to leave that fenced area one way.

In the back of a pick up.

In this case, the end does not justify the means. They are raising those exotics for the money, not some altruistic notion. If the FedGuv outlawed slaughter of those animals except by a licensed butcher in a clean facility they would all shut down within a season.

You might rethink this one...

regards,

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
One can hardly EVER see such a lion in the wild nowadays.

Sadly, I keep hearing more and more of farm bred lions being trucked, even to other countries, to be shot by the "trophy" minded brigade.

And they they claim they do not know what is going on!

Saeed - How about some facts, names and exact info regarding these "so-called" trucked lions to other countries?? The only place I keep hearing that rumor is from you! If your friends have some facts, names and info, have them provide it, otherwise its just another rumor doing nothing but spreading false info, that could negatively impact operators, clients, and the trophy lion itself, simply because some always want to believe the worst.

Some folks on AR jumped all over the Moz lion from Sabie a few weeks ago, while having no factual info, or even any idea where Sabie is, and the lions that could and have for years, come from that general location of Moz.

Aaron,

I hate to hear these rumours just as you are.

But, some of them are coming from sources I tend to trust.

And whether what I post regarding these actions upsets you or anyone else, it really makes no difference.

Because as far as I am concerned, whatever is actually happening out there SHOULD be brought out in the open.

Remember the sad story of the 50" buffalo captured in Zimbabwe and then shot somewhere else?

I understand there is a lot of pressure being applied on the canned lion farms in South Africa.

May be they have found a way of easing the pressure.

Where the heck do they end up getting these tigers and jaguars?! And, irregardless of ethics, why bother shooting one when you can't import it?

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
the offer was made to me 6 wks ago. face to face with the manager of the operation

Are you sure it was a Cape buffalo he was offering? Water buffalo and American bison are widely available but not African buffalo.

I was recently asked to help a buddy dart a breeder Aoudad ram( never harassed and not to be hunted-ever )that lives in a 50 acre breeding pen in which females are brought in , and lured out after big boy does his thing. The cover is heavy cedar, same as the rest of the ranch. The ram had got a length of wire tangled around his back leg and they wanted to dart him to remove it before it got into him deep and infected. Spent two days trying to dart him...no luck. We spent the one night I helped using spotlights, on foot in this escape proof compound , trying to get a dart( and I am bloody good with a dart gun) into a old ram , handicapped by wire no less, and never got close ! And we worked our ass off. They finally built a brush blind at the water source and got the job done two days later. Nope, I know the game pretty well down here in Texas, have hunted and guided over most of it, and if done properly, fences are nothing less than the ultimate management tool available to the serious landowner. Can it be abused? Of course, but put that wide brush your painting it with back in the bucket Rich. I have no need to re think my stance. Skyline, point taken. Thanks.

Would it help to compose a letter on behalf of the AR members to these "people" voicing our disgust at their "operation"?

Years ago I was offered (at SCI in Vegas) a trophy elk hunt on a ranch of 10 1/2 acres (I passed). Two weeks ago I declined a Russian boar hunt in Michigan. The enclosure was 200 acres. With a good scoped magnum one can shoot from one fence to the other side. A booking agent here in Alaska offered me all for North American sheep in two days..if I had the money.

On the other side of the coin, what is the difference between raising cattle for slaughter and raising lions for the same? Is one life more important than the other? I think it is the entire picture of a "hunt" and what is expected of the hunter. Sanctuary Ranch told me they have 3000 deer on 3000 acres and one gets to pick his trophy. The smallest ranch I've hunted was 12,000 acres and on foot it was truly fair chase. Those that chased their game on the ranch in a vehicle..well, it was not "fair."

How about the hunts in this country where deer are fed at feed stations, some of which play music at dinner time so the deer will come when they hear the tunes. The hunters sit in a blind or stand and just shoot as the deer comes into view.

I'm fortunate I do not have television reception at my home but when I watch the Outdoor channel at a friend's place, I've never, not once, seen a bow hunter hunt. They sit is a tree and shoot as the deer walk by.

Turn to my website and then my log and read my article, "Where Have all the Hunters Gone?" It will be published in the next African Hunter I believe. It's my opinionated piece about all the things hunters do to hunt less and kill more. If any of you know how to do it, you may copy and paste it here. I'm not that skilled.
Cheers all,
Cal

Where Have All the Hunters Gone?
by Cal Pappas

Where have all the hunters gone?
Long time passing.
Where have all the hunters gone?
Long time ago.
Where have all the hunters gone?
Behind high fences every one.
When will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?


The year was 2002. I booked a plains game hunt to South Africa after four trips to my beloved Zimbabwe. After a pleasant (but rather long) flight to Johannesburg and a greeting from my PH we drove to a ranch north of Pietersburg. The next day we were up bright and early and, as I stepped into the Land Rover, my PH said to me, “Cal, today I’ll drive you up to a nice waterbuck for you to shoot.” My reply was, “No. Let’s drive out a bit, find some tracks and follow the spoor on foot and then, if I see a good representative animal, I will shoot.”
.
My hunter looked at me as if gut-shot with surprise. Then he offered his hand and said, “You are the first American I have guided who wants to actually hunt.” His reply was an eye opener. Upon returning home I began a long look into all aspects of our sport (or activity) and what folks do to hunt less and kill more.

“It’s not the fault of the hunting industry over here,” my PH went on to say. “We only do what the clients want. If they are not happy they will go home and say so and we take a loss of revenue.” What he said was probably true. I remember on my second hunt in the Save Conservancy (1997) and hearing a doctor say how he shot his kudu at night as it was transfixed on the vehicle’s headlights. The PH confided in me he didn’t like it but what could he do? In the early 1990s when I was breaking into the hunting world a booking agent offered me, “All four North American sheep in two days--if you have the money.” As time goes by the list gets longer.

After thirteen trips to Africa and one to Australia I don’t have the last word in experience but I do have a bit more than armchair memories. My Zimbabwe PH tells me the majority of his bow hunters shoot with a rifle and pose with a bow. The same was echoed by several South African PHs I spoke with--many allow the bow hunter to use their rifle. Add this to the number of bow “hunters” who just sit at a water hole or feed stand and wait for thirsty or hungry game to appear in front of the blind, or hide. This takes the excitement and high skill out of bow hunting. In fact, when I go to Anchorage and stay at a friend’s condo and watch the Outdoor Channel I have never seen a true bow hunt in the wild. Everything is from tree stands or ground blinds. They can shoot a bow very well--but they can’t track and they can’t hunt. Many ranches have one waterhole in each high fence enclosure. The animals must go there to drink.

It’s not just the bow hunters. More and more rifle hunters shoot from blinds, from a vehicle, use a spotlight, or drive through the hunting area looking for game to shoot-sometimes not even stepping out of the vehicle. Craig Boddington said in his excellent dvd, Boddington on Elephant, “Of course no one would ever shoot an elephant over a water hole.” It would be great if Craig’s words were followed by hunters. In the Tsholotsho area of Zimbabwe, boardering Wanke Park to the south, I know of elephants only being taken at the water hole and at night with a spotlight. I really don’t see many honest tracking hunts anymore. Fair chase includes chasing in a vehicle, it seems. I like and appreciate John Sharp’s advertisements in the African Hunter magazine: “Track down your game on foot--the real way.” And that is the way it is meant to be. But isn’t so much anymore. A video of a pronghorn hunt in the western US showed the shooter with a bench and a mechanical rifle rest on a hilltop. He made his kill at several hundred yards but didn’t hunt and didn’t track.

Look at all of the gadgets that are sold to increase one’s success but keep those from truly experiencing what actual hunting is. Scent blocking shoes, clothes, and even chewing gum(!), muzzle loaders that don’t look like muzzle loaders, bows that don’t look like bows, recoil reducers, muzzle brakes, barrel vibration reducers, telescope reticles that look if they belong in a submarine periscope, hearing amplifiers, motion sensors, game cameras, feeding stations (some that play music so the game equates the music with food), tree stands, blinds, vehicles with shooting stands mounted on them, electronic calls, ghillie suits, more camo patterns than one can count, super whiz-bang magnums (some with ridiculous names) that shoot farther, faster, and flatter that any hunter could possibly shoot, devices to hold the rifle in place (like bench rest shooting in the field), and the list goes on. Guaranteed hunts, pre-measured animals, game farming, and, if all of the above fails, some buy taxidermy for their walls. I’ve seen a photo of a “hunter” in a hot tub on top of the shooting platform in Texas that overlooked the feed station.

I have to wonder how did our forefathers manage to kill a turkey for the first Thanksgiving? How did the buffalo hunters wipe out the herds of bison? How did early wing shooters, wild fowlers, and deer hunters manage success? They didn’t have any of the above stuff when they hunted. A well-known deer ranch invited me to hunt there in 2010. 3000 deer on 3000 acres (surrounded by a high fence, of course). The first hunters pay the most (about $20,000), the second batch a bit less (after the top trophies are gone), the third less than that, and so it goes through the season. 100% guaranteed kill with so many deer the quality of the trophy is also guaranteed. Since the first group of shooters selects the top scoring bucks the next group takes a decrease in size, and so it goes. Fishing in a barrel? Lots of tall tales about the business man’s shoulder mount but I doubt details of the one-day hunt are told with 100% accuracy.

As I write this (April, 2010) South African lion hunting is the topic of discussion on many forums on the internet. Canned lion hunting is the rage now as sportsmen (mostly from America) take hundreds of well-maned lions to show their friends. I doubt they tell of the lions being separated by size and mane color in paddocks, of the lions being fed meat by the land owners, of the short duration of the hunt (as compared to a true lion hunt in Tanzania or Zambia taking three weeks). And, I bet, the lion charged.

In a South African hunting magazine, Jag-Hunt, there are as many fence companies advertising as there are game farms. The price listings are for standard trophies and the price tag increases as does the horn length (“For nyala over 24 inches, price on request”). And, it is possible to have one’s trophies pre-measured to guarantee quality. One fella I know did just that. He had his pre-measured white rhino waiting for him. The “hunt” was on video for all his friends and relatives to enjoy and he knew his name would be well-up in the record books. His field experience of the “hunt” was a few hours. A ranch in Montana is saving their top bison in a separate pasture for the “hunter” willing to pay $10,000 for their top trophy.

In the vintage years of the Victorian and Edwardian eras rarely did a sportsman (or woman) keep a list of horn length or trophy size. Only ivory was weighed with the magic 100-pound mark being the holy grail. I don’t read much of Selous having to shoot a kudu with horns 1/2 an inch longer than that of Teddy Roosevelt.

Today 57-inch kudu are commonly taken as trophies. In Hemingway’s Green Hills of Africa he writes of a 57-inch kudu as having the “...most unbelievable pair of kudu horns in the world” (page 291, 1953 edition). Hemingway did an experiment in writing Green Hills. He wanted to see if a book that recorded the actual experience of a hunt could be as successful as a fictional story. It was, and today Hemingway’s African stories are read with interest and awe even in the anti gun and anti hunting liberal college campus classrooms across this great country.

Look at today’s trophy record books. In fact since Hemingway wrote of seeing the magnificent 57-inch kudu, Roland Ward has recorded 536 greater kudu (southern species) having a horn length of 57 inches or greater (26th edition). Of those, 381 have been taken in South Africa-AND only one of the entries dates before the mid-1930s when Ernest went on his safari (69 1/4 inches from 1916). Either evolution is making the greater kudu even greater (and doing it rather quickly) or they are being raised on game farms to be shot after attaining a specific horn length. Look at how many entries come from South Africa compared to Zimbabwe or Tanzania. (I know there is a difference between the southern and the East Africa species of greater kudu but I am trying to make a point).

On my second Zimbabwe hunt in 1997 I shot an old, blue eland with a .500 black powder express double rifle (Mortimer and Son # 5280). My over-zealous young PH far estimated the length of the horns at mid-30 inches (through inexperience or perhaps the desire for the trophy fee). When the animal measured about 27 inches I was disappointed. Then, I thought, “This was the best stalk of my life, shooting at less than 30 yards and taking over an hour to get that close, and using a beautiful double from 1890 of which I had the history of the first two owners.” After that I vowed to myself my emotions would never again be ruled by the tape measure.

In 2008 (I believe) a record book elk was shot in Canada but reported as being a fair chase animal taken in the States. I guess even the high-fencers do not want to admit to a canned hunt. I was offered a shot at a record book elk in America’s west in the late 1990s. I was to arrive and take a late morning walk to pick out my elk. After the shot I was to have a nice lunch while the animal was skinned, the skull and horns prepared, and I would be ready for an early afternoon departure. The ranch was 10 1/2 acres! A Canadian outfitter who hunts in open land admits to me that if he could do it all over he would change his operation to a high fence enclosure. “That’s where the money is,” he says.

The antis have lots of time and money. The entertainment elite like to pick a cause to rant over. I honestly believe when canned and guaranteed hunts are publicized our situation will worsen. In the liberal education field anti gun and anti hunting attitudes prevail. In my teaching career many parents have asked me to remove hunting photos so as not to traumatize their delicate child (they must think their burgers and steaks come from the meat tree). However, the majority of parents who, after hearing my rationalization of fair chase hunting, with the meat being used at home or in Africa, don’t have a disagreement with what I do. Imagine if I told them about shooting deer in a fenced enclosure?

My trophies are not the biggest, the best, nor the most numerous. However, I have never shot from a vehicle, or with a spot light. The soles on my Courteney boots wear out from walking “miles and miles of bloody Africa.” I don’t list my animals in trophy books--my reward comes from my memories, not from what others see or think. My choice of rifles for the past several years have been open sighted doubles and, as my eyes have grown older, I now use a 1-4x scope on my .450-400. I wear cotton in the heat of Africa and wool in the cold of Alaska. An ash bottle tells me of the wind. And, I don’t carry a tape measure. I hope Teddy would be pleased.

I am with Dave on this in regrads to the Texas operations. Yes, there is likely some abuse, but just try seeing (not hunting) a blackbuck, aoudad, scimtar horn oryx, or nilgai in their native lands.