On the 777 Ranch in Hondo, Texas website:
Cape Buffalo $50,000
Bongo $35,000
Roan $ 20,000
Sable $ 15,000

Very nice article, Cal. I do have to take exception to one thing you say, however. You seem to think that bow-hunting from a tree stand is not hunting. I strongly disagree. I have been hunting whitetails in Wisconsin for almost forty years now, mostly with a bow for the last twenty or so. Anyone who has done some serious bowhunting for whitetails in this part of the country will tell you that the hunting takes place before you get up in your stand. And there is a lot of it. Are there big bucks in the area? (We don't hunt behind game fences here, so the only way to know what is there is through intensive year-round scouting.) What are their patterns? How do those patterns change during the course of the year? Which of the many trails in the woods are used by the buck you are hunting and which by the does? Where should you hang your stands? When should you use a particular stand? How often can you hunt that stand? What time of day will give you the best chance for a shot at this particular buck (and the real whitetail trophy hunters tend to zero in on a particular animal)? How do you get to and from your stand without disturbing your quarry and without leaving so much scent that you shy your quarry away?

Bear in mind too, that in the rural areas of the upper midwest (which is where I do the vast majority of my deer hunting) you may only have permission to hunt a particular farm or woodlot, so all of your plans have to include the fact that you may have to do all of the above on a 400 acre piece of property-- and that the deer can go off that property if they feel like it.

It certainly is not impossible to bowhunt whitetails on foot. My brother does it a lot (mostly because after an hour of sitting he tends to get too antsy.) But it is extremely low-percentage. I would imagine it would be like trying to bowhunt a leopard by following spoor (on your own-- no dogs or Bushman trackers!)

I will agree with you to this extent, however, Cal: the paying hunting clients (the guys you probably see in the hunting shows) are not the guys who do the hunting I have described. That is done by the hunting guide they have paid.

You are wasting your time Dirks-If you don't do it cals way you are a schlock.There is only one true way to hunt and that is the way they do it up in Willow,Alaska. The rest of us are obviously just pretending to be hunters.

cal papas............good one.

This issue with kill more is what I find troubling these days, I mean over and above the problem that no one wants to sweat, be uncomfortable or get bloody skinning any longer. It use to be that hunters went through phases and as they aged and gained experience, harvested game animals over the course of many years...........they no longer had to fill their tag. Hunts were not measured by the size and quantity of the bag.

I just finished guiding my 34th spring bear season. The last couple of hunters I dealt with shot their bears towards the end of a tough hunt with unseasonably hot weather and lots of bugs. It was the first bear hunt either of them had been on. When I was skinning the bears they didn't offer to hold a leg or anti up any sort of assistance. They weren't inquisitive about the animals themselves, showing the interest in the hide and paws, the physical build of the bears as they were skinned........things I would have expected to see in the past.

No they paced around and drank beer, all in a dither to put a tape on the skulls and see if the made the book. Once that was done they walked away and never looked at their 'trophies' again. I see this a lot now and it makes me glad I am approaching the end of my guiding career because I do not enjoy it so much any more. I don't enjoy the 'hunters' much any more because the caliber of individual that use to be the norm is becoming a rare beast.

The other day I was looking at some info in the SCI scoring system and it suddenly dawned on me that they now score capybara from South America. I was absolutely blown away, but I guess I really should not have been surprised. I wonder how long it will be before we have categories for beaver, muskrat and nutria so that we can have a World Slam of Aquatic Rodents?

I believe there are two fences in the picture, one right behind the Lion, and one near the top of the picture. Maybe the area between them is reserved for a second animal in case the "hunter" misses the first one!

sdirks:
Thanks for your input. Some friends in Zim hunt with long bows, on foot, and their skill really impressed me. Granted their success is lower.
eyedoc:
Sorry my opinion annoyed you so. It was just my opinionated piece--doesn't mean it is right. Willow, Alaska is a great place to be!
Skyline:
I see what you are mentioning most of the time--both here in Alaska and in Africa. No mention of the stalk or of skill used. But most can quote the muzzle velocity of their magnums. I guess I just prefer the old ways. I think it is part of our new culture--as much as possible for as little as possible. Like the kids in my school who sat on the bench but wanted a varsity letter or dad would sue. I've seen hunters walk away I disgust if they didn't get in the "book."
Cheers, all.
Cal

Excellent post Cal, I wish I had the words to have written it, not just think it.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Hey Skyline
Texas, and some very progressive ranchers who spent a hell of a lot of their own money to ensure they they got here in the first place, are the only reason some African animals are not extinct.

Example?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Example?

Scymitar horned oryx. I can't think of any other African ones. Other areas sure. Nilgai and black buck are two.

Brett

With a nod to the tasteful baboon taxi thread, I'd like to suggest a full-body mount for the lion. Sitting position, head cocked to side, paw batting a ball of yarn the size of a basketball. Seems fitting to me.

Yesterday I played golf with a friend who had gone to Africa with me a couple of times.

I told him about this thread.

Before his first trip, we rode our scooters down to the Jacksonville zoo and walked around looking at African animals, discussing anatomy and where to put bullets.

My friend, between shots, allowed that the Jacksonville trip probably was more fun than the lion hunts advertised and a heck of a lot cheaper.

Ernest, aren't you over there shooting stuff with Lou yet???

24 days and a wake up!

Judge where you going this trip???

Chete.

Do they have any fences there? Sure would make it a lot easier!

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Example?

Scymitar horned oryx. I can't think of any other African ones. Other areas sure. Nilgai and black buck are two.

Brett

Addax maybe. There are quite a few black rhino in Texas too.

Brett and Lane may move to the head of the class. Those species are done in Africa. Rhino soon to join them.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Example?

Scymitar horned oryx. I can't think of any other African ones. Other areas sure. Nilgai and black buck are two.

Brett

Addax maybe. There are quite a few black rhino in Texas too.

Dama Gazelle is another. Not sure if it's as threatened as the others, but aoudad is also from Africa.

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Example?


Scymitar horned oryx. I can't think of any other African ones. Other areas sure. Nilgai and black buck are two.

Brett


Lots of Nilgai in India and Pakistan. Lots of blackbuck here too. Of course, no hunting allowed in India, although in some states, very occassionally Nilgai is classified as "vermin" and the farm owner allowed to shoot a few to restrict crop damage. Nilgai is hunted in Pakistan.

You can drive less than a 100 miles from New Delhi and see both

Just fyi

Thanks for the info.

Brett

The Ringling Brothers Circus & Safari Co. LTD.

quote:

Originally posted by Sevens:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Example?

Scymitar horned oryx. I can't think of any other African ones. Other areas sure. Nilgai and black buck are two.

Brett

Addax maybe. There are quite a few black rhino in Texas too.

Dama Gazelle is another. Not sure if it's as threatened as the others, but aoudad is also from Africa.

There's been an ongoing legal battle involving the hunting (sic) of scimitar-horned oryx, addax, and dama gazelle on Texas ranches. If memory serves, it had to do with the way they were listed in the Endangered Species act, which alloweed ranch owners to avoid a lot of red tape. SCI, the Exotic Wildlife Association, and Conservation Force were all involved. The latset court ruling went against them a year or two ago and some ranchers are saying that that will be the end of those species.

: : :

quote:

Originally posted by Thomasjohn:
On the 777 Ranch in Hondo, Texas website:
Cape Buffalo $50,000
Bongo $35,000
Roan $ 20,000
Sable $ 15,000

I saw that on the 777 site also. Can anyone explain why someone would pay $50,000 to take a buffalo in Texas.


I guess you would save yourself the time and trouble of traveling all the way to Africa, but $50K ????

Maybe they are afraid to fly of just plain afraid of Africa?

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Thomasjohn:
On the 777 Ranch in Hondo, Texas website:
Cape Buffalo $50,000
Bongo $35,000
Roan $ 20,000
Sable $ 15,000

I saw that on the 777 site also. Can anyone explain why someone would pay $50,000 to take a buffalo in Texas.


I guess you would save yourself the time and trouble of traveling all the way to Africa, but $50K ????

Maybe they are afraid to fly of just plain afraid of Africa?

I imagine some of those who would take a hunt of that sort probably don't have passports.

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Ann Horsman: He is in a pen.
Wednesday at 9:18pm

Adrian de Guisti:

Yes all lions in South Africa for hunting are kept in a pen and then released for hunting 2 weeks before the hunter arrive for the hunt. You will hunt on 50,000 acre. Tracking the lion on foot. This is how all lion hunts in SA gets done.
Thursday at 1:48am.

Clint Taylor:

for every lion shot in SA a wild lion is saved and in some areas in Africa the wild lion population is in trouble because of habitat destruction and poaching of plainsgame hence no food for lion so they die, move or eat humans and get shot....
Thursday at 2:41am.

Clint Taylor:

Ann in what country was your leopard shot, was it baited? was it shot at night with the use of a spot light?
Thursday at 2:43am

Ann, extend an invitation to Adrian and Clint to join AR......

I plan to do that.

quote:

There's been an ongoing legal battle involving the hunting (sic) of scimitar-horned oryx, addax, and dama gazelle on Texas ranches. If memory serves, it had to do with the way they were listed in the Endangered Species act, which alloweed ranch owners to avoid a lot of red tape. SCI, the Exotic Wildlife Association, and Conservation Force were all involved. The latset court ruling went against them a year or two ago and some ranchers are saying that that will be the end of those species.

A lot of people (and ranchers) have taken note about this too. I went hunting on a ranch in Texas last year that had addax and scimitar on it. I asked the ranch owner about the legislation; he knew about it and practically gave me an addax and scimitar.

I think a fair number of people on the board have taken advantage of the "fire sale" prices and shot an oryx as well. My taxidermist even mentioned he had one client heading back to shoot a few more since they were such a good price.

quote:

Originally posted by Sevens:

quote:

There's been an ongoing legal battle involving the hunting (sic) of scimitar-horned oryx, addax, and dama gazelle on Texas ranches. If memory serves, it had to do with the way they were listed in the Endangered Species act, which alloweed ranch owners to avoid a lot of red tape. SCI, the Exotic Wildlife Association, and Conservation Force were all involved. The latset court ruling went against them a year or two ago and some ranchers are saying that that will be the end of those species.

A lot of people (and ranchers) have taken note about this too. I went hunting on a ranch in Texas last year that had addax and scimitar on it. I asked the ranch owner about the legislation; he knew about it and practically gave me an addax and scimitar.

I think a fair number of people on the board have taken advantage of the "fire sale" prices and shot an oryx as well. My taxidermist even mentioned he had one client heading back to shoot a few more since they were such a good price.

I wonder if the same thing might happen some day with South African lions.

: : :

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
I won't partake of one of those hunts in Africa. I have never gone on a fenced hunt in Texas and never will. If you look at things it is probably the Texas exotic business, which started way back in the early 1900's that fueled the whole thing globally.

I know there are Texas ranches with buffalo as I have seen it in adds before, but I didn't think they were getting hunted. On the other hand the 'canned' big cats hunt were happening a long time ago in Texas..........lions, tigers, jaguars, whatever you wanted. It was a real hot topic in the media for a while and it was even on the evening news with some tyro hammering a black jaguar released from a cage in Texas.

If the huge demand was not there in the US, all of those Texas game ranches and similar businesses would not have survived or become so popular elsewhere. Everytime I see a picture of some guy with a 400+ elk killed on a Saskatchewan elk farm it makes me want to puke.

Make sure you cut off the ear tags before you take the pictures.

Skyline I mean no disrespect, but your passage in the bold is absolutely not true! The cats you speak of being on the news were in Oklahoma, not Texas. And the private hunting ranches were live and well in Europe long before they were in Texas.

The exotics in Texas started with the King family who hunted in India back at the turn of the last century, and black buck, and Nilgai antelope and some others were released on the king ranch here in Texas, because King wanted them at home. The original King ranch was 1/3 of the state of Texas, thousands of square miles, and not even fenced. The animals simply were free to migrate anywhere they wanted, and descendants are all over Texas fence or no fence. As far as Jaguar go they were native to south Texas, southern New Mexico, and Arizona till they were simply killed out by cattlemen to protect their herds.

The original European hogs (So-called Russians) were brought to Texas by the Conquistadors to supply the sailors with fresh meat on the ship over, and were taken into the interior of what is now Texas and New Mexico and dropped off where the Catholic missions were built. Of course now most are mixed with feral hogs. Swine are not native to North, or South America. The nearest thing we had was Javalina, which are not hogs at all.

Deer hunters took an occasional Jaguar in southern Arizona as late as the 1950s. I've lived in Texas most all my 74 years, and I never saw a high fence till I was 25 yrs old. The oil companies are directly responsible for the lease hunting we enjoy today. They came in and flashed a lot of money around to the ranchers buying up leases excusive hunting rights to entertain their clients, and politicians to get oil, and natural gas leases. That wasn't till the late 1930 early 40s and only where the oil fields were drilled.

All I'm saying is you don't have to hunt high fence to hunt exotics in Texas they are everywhere and have been all my life. I hunt a 96,000-acre low fence ranch for a few days each year, and I see exotics every year there around the water holes, and in the headlights of our trucks going in before sunrise and coming out after sun down. We had them on our low fence ranch when I was a kid in the late 1930s. However because the large land owners found that they could make a living from hunting in conjunction with cattle ranching is what caused the lease hunting in Texas, but they only followed the lead of what Scotland, England, and Germany had been doing for 200 yrs before it happened in Texas or RSA, and Canada.

If you want to assign blame let’s put it where it belongs. I’m not saying there are no high fence operations in Texas, there certainly are, but they are not as prevalent as most people think. I would say there is no more than 2 to 3% of the ranch land in Texas that has high fence, even on part of their land. The first place high fence costs more than $15K per mile to install; yet we get called the high fence state, which is absolute BS! Top this off the law in Texas doesn’t allow the release of any dangerous cats or wolves in Texas for the purpose of hunting, even cats native to Texas.

If you read my next post you would know it was not about assigning blame at all, but about the start and proliferation of fenced hunts. Further more the cat issue, there was no intend on my part to malign Texas........really doesn't matter if it was Texas or Oklahoma or Pennsylvania really. It did occurred, it was over here and that is really all I was saying.

I have met hunters in the last few years who have NEVER been on a hunt that was not behind fence.........and I do not care whether it is 50,000 acres or 10.......they had never yet hunted in the wide open spaces. They went from fenced hunts in Texas, to fenced hunts in South Africa, to elk behind fence in Saskatchewan.

That is a sad commentary and nothing anyone is going to say can convince me otherwise. It is a sign of the times and shows just how much things have changed. I have nothing more to say on the issue.........it is an old one, one that I have seen go in never ending circles too many times.

Sorry but the thought of hunting lion behind fence leaves me cold, as does hunting bighorn sheep behind fence in Nebraska, cape buffalo in Texas or elk behind fence in Saskatchewan. What is next, grizzly behind fence? Is that OK to as long as it is released a couple weeks in advance of the hunt. Each to their own and I mean no disrespect either, but when the day comes that all I can do is hunt behind fence, I will quit.

Idaho, Distinguished Curmudgon emeritus, that is not what the "cries" directed at you (and others) on the previous forum were about.

Those "cries" - including mine - were to this effect: "Do not criticize another hunter's ethics if the fashion in which he or she hunts is legal. Doesn't mean you you have to do it, or approve of it, yourself."

There are lots of legal acts and omissions in which I choose not to participate. These things are my business, no one else's.

Good hunting.

Thank you for starting this one, Ann. It's important.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Thomasjohn:
On the 777 Ranch in Hondo, Texas website:
Cape Buffalo $50,000
Bongo $35,000
Roan $ 20,000
Sable $ 15,000

I saw that on the 777 site also. Can anyone explain why someone would pay $50,000 to take a buffalo in Texas.


I guess you would save yourself the time and trouble of traveling all the way to Africa, but $50K ????

Maybe they are afraid to fly of just plain afraid of Africa?

Maybe the 777 lists buffalo at $50,000 just to have a quoted price in case a hunter "accidently" shoots one. It's doubtful they sell many hunts at that price.

quote:

Originally posted by mauser93:
Idaho, Distinguished Curmudgon emeritus, that is not what the "cries" directed at you (and others) on the previous forum were about.

Those "cries" - including mine - were to this effect: "Do not criticize another hunter's ethics if the fashion in which he or she hunts is legal. Doesn't mean you you have to do it, or approve of it, yourself."

There are lots of legal acts and omissions in which I choose not to participate. These things are my business, no one else's.

Good hunting.

Thank you for starting this one, Ann. It's important.

If we don't put our house in order it will be done for us. We hunters need to constructively critique what we do and how we do it.

I would much prefer not to give a crap about what anyone else is doing but the fact is that the activities of some people are threatening my way of life.

If anyone is hunting in a manner that will attract negativity to the sport as a whole I say we should sort it out for the greater good.

The "if it is legal and you can afford it go ahead" argument has been discredited.

quote:

Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:

quote:

Originally posted by mauser93:
Idaho, Distinguished Curmudgon emeritus, that is not what the "cries" directed at you (and others) on the previous forum were about.

Those "cries" - including mine - were to this effect: "Do not criticize another hunter's ethics if the fashion in which he or she hunts is legal. Doesn't mean you you have to do it, or approve of it, yourself."

There are lots of legal acts and omissions in which I choose not to participate. These things are my business, no one else's.

Good hunting.

Thank you for starting this one, Ann. It's important.

If we don't put our house in order it will be done for us. We hunters need to constructively critique what we do and how we do it.

I would much prefer not to give a crap about what anyone else is doing but the fact is that the activities of some people are threatening my way of life.

If anyone is hunting in a manner that will attract negativity to the sport as a whole I say we should sort it out for the greater good.

The "if it is legal and you can afford it go ahead" argument has been discredited.

Well said Milo, I agree 100%.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Thomasjohn:
On the 777 Ranch in Hondo, Texas website:
Cape Buffalo $50,000
Bongo $35,000
Roan $ 20,000
Sable $ 15,000

I saw that on the 777 site also. Can anyone explain why someone would pay $50,000 to take a buffalo in Texas.


I guess you would save yourself the time and trouble of traveling all the way to Africa, but $50K ????

Maybe they are afraid to fly of just plain afraid of Africa?

Maybe the 777 lists buffalo at $50,000 just to have a quoted price in case a hunter "accidently" shoots one. It's doubtful they sell many hunts at that price.

That is likely the case. I've spoken with the manager of the 777 Ranch before and asked about their Cape Buffalo just out of curiosity.....and they only have around 10-12 animals. They are trying to grow their herd.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
If you read my next post you would know it was not about assigning blame at all, but about the start and proliferation of fenced hunts. Further more the cat issue, there was no intend on my part to malign Texas........really doesn't matter if it was Texas or Oklahoma or Pennsylvania really. It did occurred, it was over here and that is really all I was saying.

Well it matters to folks from Texas, Oklahoma, or Pennsylvania, which place it is!

It is just that I get tired of every time there is a canned lion hunt in Africa, the next word you read it TEXAS, and it doesn't seem to matter where something happened TEXAS get involved by who ever is posting at the time! There has never been a canned hunt for anything in Texas that anyone here can point to and prove. A high fence hunt is not a canned hunt, and the problem is the people that make that statement know that it is a lie when they say it is.

Hunters from Texas would no more condone canned hunting of animals than anyone else. The problem we have with the lease system is that Texas hunters have been priced out of the hunting fields of our own state, and must go to other states, and countries where hunting is more reasonable to enjoy. A full 90% of the hunting ranch guests here in Texas are from other places other than Texas.

There are species that can be fair-chase within a high fence, if the conditions within that fence are right. The ACTUAL size not the size on the deed of the enclosure is only one of the items that makes a hunt for a particular animal a hunt or a canned shooting. The others are the natural habits of a species, and the size of the enclosure, along with the surface conditions and food supply, escape routes, bedding cover, water availability.

The deeded acreage may not tell you the actual surface size of the land. The surface area of the land may be twice the size of the acreage on the deed. So deeded acreage is not a hard and fast measure concerning a place being large enough for hunting. I once had an A-hole tell me that if the whole state of Texas were fenced any hunting inside the fence would still be a canned hunt! Even the PITA-heads should know better than to make such a ridiculous statement, but I take that for what it is a anti’s bias thinking. However we have many hunters who make the same ridiculous statements.

Nobody minds hunting Brown bear on Kodiak Island, which is considerably smaller than TEXAS’s smallest of the 257 counties, and not much larger than most of the large ranches in Texas, and surely Kodiak Island is fenced by the ocean.

I agree that things like Elk that migrate great distances naturally shouldn’t be hunted in enclosures that do not allow this. A whitetail deer however lives and dies within one mile of his birth, naturally, and as long as he is not hand fed before being hunted in a very large enclosure of thousands of acres (only one section is one square mile 640 acres) with plenty of food, cover, water, and natural bedding cover, and escape routes, he is smart enough to elude any foot hunter till hell freezes over. The same goes for many African species, whose natural home range is quite small, inside very large enclosures and he has only to get behind the next bush to be out of your line of sight. Out of sight is out of mind for all practical purposes.

I certainly understand the concern for a hunting guide/outfitter who has a business of guiding in very vast lands for hunting, especially in a place where law requires an alien to be accompanied by a guide. However there are so many places in the world today that if one hunts he will hunt private property or he will not hunt. Texas is one of those places. That has always been the case in Europe. There is almost NO public hunting land in Texas. The whole state is privately owned.

It only stands to reason that in a place like that the man owning the land will put up fence that keeps things, and people out as well keeps his property out of the hands of thieves. How long does anyone think merchandise would stay on the shelves of a store if the walls, and doors were not in place?

Like most here I don’t hunt high fence places often but when I do, it is for meat animals not trophies, and I pick the type place I want to hunt, and I hunt on foot, with an iron sighted double rifle. I can take anyone to a place that is only 2000 acres behind high fence, and if you hunt that way just described for Eland you will be lucky to even get close enough to get a shot on even a young eland in three days, and there are plenty of them in there.

Canned lion is what started this thread, and I fail to see how Texas got into this thread. As far as I’m aware, the only lions in Texas are either in zoos or are the native mountain lions in south and west Texas, and they aren’t in cans. Like any real hunter I don’t go along with true canned so-called huts, but some of the statements made in this thread and others like it, are simply stupid, and painted with a very wide brush, no other way to say it!

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
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Ann Horsman: He is in a pen.
Wednesday at 9:18pm

Adrian de Guisti:

Yes all lions in South Africa for hunting are kept in a pen and then released for hunting 2 weeks before the hunter arrive for the hunt. You will hunt on 50,000 acre. Tracking the lion on foot. This is how all lion hunts in SA gets done.
Thursday at 1:48am.

Clint Taylor:

for every lion shot in SA a wild lion is saved and in some areas in Africa the wild lion population is in trouble because of habitat destruction and poaching of plainsgame hence no food for lion so they die, move or eat humans and get shot....
Thursday at 2:41am.

Clint Taylor:

Ann in what country was your leopard shot, was it baited? was it shot at night with the use of a spot light?
Thursday at 2:43am

Isn't he right a bout hunting lions in South Africa?

I don't know Saeed, I was troubled about that 'two-week' statement. I thought they had to be realeased for 6 months???

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
I don't know Saeed, I was troubled about that 'two-week' statement. I thought they had to be realeased for 6 months???

I thought it was two years.

That's why I was wondering about a "fire sale".

Court Ruling (Don't know if this is the latest).

Comment on draft by SAPBA. - "The regulations would put an end to the hunting of captive bred predators ... "