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One of Us |
Those are some good, reasonable ideas. But how do you propose changing or altering the beliefs of individuals that seemingly refuse to accept the idea that their personal view of hunting and who is or is not a real hunter is not shared by hunters in general and never will be and that openly stating that any/all forms of hunting they do not approve of or agree with should be outlawed? Isn't there a concept concerning the Law of Diminishing Returns? How can one gain support for something when they openly want to see something others enjoy banned? I am probably wrong on this, but from what I have been observing for the past 20 or 30 years, hunters and hunting has garnered a lot of negative attitudes from a lot of people that firmly/passionately/ideologically believe that hunting of anything that lives should stop. Please cotrrect me if I am wrong on that. The reason I support any and all forms of Legal Hunting is that I believe if any are stopped it will simply become easier for those whose goal is to stop all hunting of any kind to achierve their goal. Those people have not cared in the past how we conduct ourselves, they do not care now how we conduct ourselves in fact we are fighting their fight and winning it for them by continuing to attack each other in the belief that if we clean our act up we will be more acceptable to them and they will leave us alone. As long as ANYONE knowingly/willingly/wantonly goes out and kills another species just because they can, they will continue working to get it stopped. Why should Any hunter that loses the ability to hunt the species they want to in the manner they want to as long as it is legal, support in any way or manner other hunters that openly supported the outlawing of that form of hunting. I appreciate the effort you are making in trying to find some sort of common ground to initiate a dialog, I feel however others that have been participating will not view cyour efforts as favorably. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Do you honestly believe that will happen among Today's American hunters. Lopok what has caused all the problems that have arisen over posting pictures opn FB, Young Affluent American hunters showing off their trophies, because Americans have became a Nation of everyone has to be a WINNER. That is not going to change because it has gone to far. Americans have evolved or as with hunting devolved to where WINNING is EVERYTHING, a decent buck thirty years ago is laughed at today. Sorry, the only future I see for hunting is a gradually continous loss of species that can be hunted, the anti's have time and a head start on their side. This discussion clearly demonstrates that hunters are too busy grasping at straws and stabbing each other to find common ground. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Well I guess the big takeaway for me here is that CHC changed his signature blurb...finally. | |||
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I hope that isn't directed at me Mr. Baldry as I have simply tried to be objective to both sides of the story in this pissing match. 30+ years experience tells me that perfection hit at .264. Others are adequate but anything before or after is wishful thinking. | |||
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I am relatively sure that the comment was not directed at you, it was simply another indication that one group in this "Discussion" has absolutely NO intentions of looking at the siutuation objectively or reasonably. In fact I believe if hunters will look thru the various comments expressed by one side of the issue, they will easily discern that members of the other side are ready and willing to openly support the shut down of any and all hunting that does not meet their criteria for what is acceptable, in hopes of hanging on to the type of hunting they deem acceptable. If you will notice their attitude paralleles that of Americans that are ready to fold on tougher gun laws hoping to be able to keep their guns. As Frank Herbert wrote in his book "Dune" concerning scars on a drowned sailors neck. "What is Most disturbing is when you realize that those scars were made by the boots of another sailor standing on the shoulders of the drowning man in an attempt to save himself"? In this case, it is the elitists being ready and willing to see other hunters lose the ability to hiunt, in hopes of saving the hunting they enjoy doing. Does not matter to them that it is not How they hunt that is at issue, but the Species! , Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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. . . and a number of us have been wondering why you refuse to do so. Please explain. Mike | |||
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Anyone care to speculate how many pages this will go? I think it should be renamed the “dog chasing his tail “ thread. It just keeps going round and round and round while getting nowhere. Carry on gentlemen. | |||
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Jines, I am looking at it objectively. The people wanting lion and elephant and ultimately ALL hunting stopped, do not care about a hunters ethics. They do not care about what hunting means to any hunter. They do not care about how ANY hunter reacts after making a kill. All they care about is controlling a certain segment of the population, and the fact that hunters are killing species just to say they killed them, is more than enough of a motive to get them working toward shutting hunting of all forms down. For you and those that believe as you do, to openly support the closure of a specific form of hunting that a large segment of t8he hunting community enjoys and participates in, only shows how willing some hunters are to throw other hunters under the bus, in hopes of retaining their ability to hunt the way they choose. I think I am being damn objective because I do not want to see ANY hunters, regardless of the species they prefer hunting or the manner of hunting they use as long as it is legal, and you and your cronies can not say the same! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Oh okay. Thanks for clearing that up. Mike | |||
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I don't see anything was cleared up. I am interested in seeing ALL hunters retain the ability to hunt the species of their choice and by the manner they choose as long as it is legal. I think that is pretty objective, especially when you and those that believe as you do are evidently openly ready to support the banning of hunting methods/styles your group has determined is beneath contempt. Course, I am quite sure you and your group believe objectivity only works when others agree with you unquestioningly. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Fantastic Post ! Thank you Aaron. Don't know why this thread cant stay with this subject........ ???
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You know who to thank for that and it is this same attitude that has flushed morals and ethics down the black hole! This competitive trend has given birth to a new breed of hunter, the one who must achieve his ultimate goal by hook or by crook, morals & ethics be damned! A simple question Randall if I may: Why are 99% of African hunts guided hunts - what is the reason for having to be guided by a PH when by and large the client is a seasoned hunter the likes of many here on AR? I might add that not all PHs are "Lily White & Pussy Pure" but most of them are; correct, upstanding persons exercising their profession as per the hunter's dogma. Our gracious host Saeed has on most of his recorded hunts displayed the accepted moral and ethical values expected of a passionate hunter unless he's edited a few segments here and there.  | |||
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Amen, Larry. How many times do we need to read the same comments stated in a slightly different way.... Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Why are 99% of African hunts guided?? Because it’s the law and the average( or experienced) African hunter hasn’t the ability to put together the logistics of a chase libre hunt. Too bad Cam Gregg is no longer with us to a allow those of us with a spirit of adventure to have a go at DIY Safaris. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Aaron, I feel the need to say that I'm sorry that your well informed thread got derailed. I'm partially to blame for us getting so off topic. I did want to comment that I can understand why people who pass off canned lion as wild lion pisses you off. I've seen the lying myself and it boggles the mind the lengths that people will go to hide the true nature of their hunt. I just thought I'd throw that out there. And seriously man you should consider writing a book. Unfortunately someday it might be the only thing left to show people what once existed.... | |||
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Who said the average experienced hunter had to go through the process of logistics? What if you were to request that of the outfitter and hunt on your own with a gang of trackers? It won't happen because it is indeed the law; to ensure fair chase and hunting ethics are applied and adhered to. BTW, Fair Chase in French would be Chasse Libre not Chase Libre | |||
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If I keep poking this objective bear, it will go on... you see, we can now discuss objectivity and how that relates to ethics, law, etc,etc,etc...  As we all know objectivity is a bit subjective.... | |||
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Why are 99% of African hunts guided?? Because it’s the law and the average( or experienced) African hunter hasn’t the ability to put together the logistics of a chase libre hunt. Too bad Cam Gregg is no longer with us to a allow those of us with a spirit of adventure to have a go at DIY Safaris. Many Thanks to JDollar for that answer. Too add to that, the average or even above average hunter can simply not take the time or stasnd the expense of flying to Africa 3 or 4 times to scout and work out the logistics of putting togetherr a week to 2 or 3 week hunt. Pretty much the average American hunter can, depending on where they are wanting to hunt and what, can put together a couple or a few scouting trips prior to a season. That however has nothing to do with the real issue, which boils down to the FACT that a growing number of people, World Wide are really working at trying to get "Sport Hunting" for lion and elephant stopped. Those people have realised that trying to get All hunting ended at one time is impossible so they changed tactics and mindset and began working toward getting the hunting of one or two "Big Name" species, Lion and Elephant fit the bill. Trying to get hunters to rea;lize that anti's have a goal, it is the uninformed Non Hunting Public and some hunters that really don't understand why anyone wants to hunt those species that the anti's are working on. Right now and for the future hunters do not need to be dividing into camps over non-issues such as what is and isn't hunting and who is and who isn't or should not be considered a hunter. From what I see when looking around Lion and Elephant hunters are in the most vunerable position of any of us to be the first to lose. I do not want to see that happen because when that first domino falls, even though it might be a long stretch before the next one goes, but it will go and eventually all hunting will be lost, with the probable exception of Privately Owned "Wildlife" on High Fenced properties. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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In the immortal words of Buzz Lightyear, "To infinity and beyond!" Mike | |||
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Maybe till it soaks in and REALIZE it is NOT just lion and elephant hunters that will lose if hunting for those species is shut down, the entire hunting community loses. And for one group of hunters to try and set themselves us as the final authorities on what is actually hunting and who should even attempt to consider themselves a hunter along with openly stating that they support the closure certain forms of hunting that they feel is wrong, is really no different than what the antis goals. For those wanting all hunting stopped it is a win-win proposition if hunters start cutting each others throats! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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A good start, and I would like to add a couple of things. It would be nice to see SCI instead of promoting a red wing black bird slam, promote what good, huntable animals are in terms of trophy value and more important conservation. Buffalo, as Mr Jines posted, are a good example of how hunters attitudes are changing. SCI's score system still promotes the shooting of young buffalo (regardless if they claim to have scientific data to disprove that), all one has to do is look at the top ten SCI buffalo. There are quite a few young buffalo in that group. As I understand there is an idea in front of the membership committee at SCI to allow children under 18 to join SCI for free. I tried to find an email address on SCI's website to let them know I support this idea. The more children involved in legal ethical hunting the better off we will be. | |||
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I just want expecting hunters / buyers to know what they are getting, that's all. Just like if you go buy a high/fence trophy whitetail, you would like to know the facts. I was very honest about my "reserve" lion hunt, hoping to show people what its really all about - but deceiving the public for personal gain / perception is not right, IMO. No apologies necessary....debate is always a good thing. Some just can't see the forest for the trees!  I do plan to write a book someday...hopefully before I kick over from another heart attack!  | |||
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Honestly, I think Aaron’s point is really what will solve things best. If folks know what they are buying before they purchase it, it would go a long ways towards reducing canned hunts. If the shows on TV were forced to adhere to some sort of truth in advertising on the various gun shows, that would help too. How many hunts for big cats have been televised and you knew as soon as the outfitters name was mentioned that this was a canned shoot? And how well would it have been received if they had? I remember some fluff piece about a young girl shooting the big 5. Shot the stuff with a popular canned outfit, but constant comments about wild animals... | |||
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I have to wonder seriously how anybody booking these trips COULDN'T know what they are buying. I mean I could see an inexperienced hunter in South Africa hunting plains game getting suckered by the ploy of "hey, there is this lion that has crossed over from Botswana. Wanna crack at it?" But people directly buying these hunts have to know that these lions aren't wild. They may lie to themselves and to others but deep down they have to know. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm also under the impression that outfitters really hype up the hunt by acting like they are actively scouring the property for tracks when they know exactly where the lion is. It comes off as one big charade. Again, maybe I'm wrong. | |||
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Guys, here's my perspective from a lion hunter....nothing more. 1. Canned lions do not relieve any pressure off of wild lions, that's a farce! Wild lions, in wild areas are regulated by quotas / legal off-take requirements, etc. More / less lions are not being shot in the wild, because guys choose to shoot canned lions...come on! Guys shoot "canned" lions because its cheaper and they want one....that's my perspective. I am not debating the reasons why they do so, I am stating what I believe to be the case. 2. Reserve lions can / do provide another avenue to hunting lions, if one so see's fit. This too does nothing to relieve hunting pressure on wild lions, its simply another alternative to hunting wild lions for what amounts to a $100,000 hunt in many cases. I enjoyed it tremendously, but I never confused it for a wild lion hunt. I knew when I drove through the fence, the lion I was after was there.....period! 3. Hunting wild lions (same as leopards) is the real essence of cat hunting! The animal is "wild", born - raised - and hunted in totally wild / remote conditions. No actual intentional human interference ever played a part in their taking. Sure, we as humans to encroach on their habitat, but nothing is / was predetermined as to success prior to my arrival. We search, we bait, we track, and we hunt for a wild lion - just as I do the elk I seek in the mountains of Colorado. Sometimes we connect on our intended quarry, and sometimes we don't. Its that simple!!! | |||
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This is one that will simply have to be worked out between hunters and the governing bodies that are in charge of making the rules. I can understand the thinking on this issue. I really never had any desire to hunt a lion in Africa, but if I had, I would not shoot one that had been reared in captivity or confined in a x numbers of acre pen. Reason I have never hunted anything other than axis deer does inside a high fence property, it is just not something I want or will do. I could easily go to places here in Texas and shoot Greater Kudu/Gemsbok/Eland and several other African/Asian hoof stock, but it would NOT be the same as going to Africa and hunting those animals. The difference being, I have no problem with those that will do such "Hunts". If their conscience allows them to do such things, that is their business and God did not put me in charge of judging people. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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. . . like gum on the bottom of your shoe. Mike | |||
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Aaron, are you saying all wild lion quotas are filled every year? If not, I think if CBL lions were done away with at least some extra wild lions would be taken. Any idea how many wild lions are taken legally each year in Africa. I think I read it is only 10 for RSA. I think there are 500 CBL lions taken so if only a small percentage of the CBL hunters decided to go for a wild lion I think it would have a huge impact. Of course, that brings up the question of whether trophy hunting wild lions reduces or increases the lion population. That last sentence wouldn't make sense to a non-hunter but I am sure everyone here does understand. | |||
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I will let Aaron answer for himself, but I guarantee you not all lion quotas are filled every year. | |||
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Jines grow up or get the PTB's of this place to change the rules concerning who can and cannot partipatyer in any given discussion. In spite of what you believe, the future of lion or elephant hunting will have an effect on the future of ALL hunting! If you do not care or cannot understand that, that is your problem. Lions and elephant are the species that are being focused upon and if they are put off limits, it will simply be the start of the end to hunting. If you can't see that Jines, that is your problem. While I do not have a problem with the canned lion hunts, legality wise, they should never have been allowed to get started. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Absolutely 100% correct. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I believe that as Aaron said, wild lions and canned lions represent two different markets. I don't see that banning canned lion would affect wild lion hunting much at all. The folks who hunt canned would simply stop hunting lion altogether. | |||
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+1, the demographics of canned lion hunters and those of wild lion hunters are very different. There might be a very few potential canned lion hunters that would cross over to be wild lion hunters if canned lion hunting was abolished, but it would be darn few. Couple that with the fact that quota is left over every year and the low probability of success on wild lion, it is pretty clear that canned lion hunting does nothing to conserve wild lion populations. Mike | |||
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In today’s world, wild lion hunting with fewer and fewer on quota and age restrictions, it’s simply a game of money Honestly I would love to do it but it simply exceeded my financial willingness besides my elephant hunting addiction, which gets in the way anytime I somehow think of lion " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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Well, I disagree, but no one addressed my other point. If more wild lion are taken, more money goes to the villages and they, the villagers, have more incentive to reduce poaching. | |||
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Steve Robinson who post here also believes canned lion does not remove pressure on wild lion. The rational being folks who are purchasing canned lion are not in the market for wild lion hunting. I was convinced by this logic. I strongly believe that canned pen raised shooting regardless of whether it is lion in S Africa or a artificially enhanced deer in US will be a death nail to hunting. Folks want to talk about alienation. What one needs to be worried about alienating open minded hunters and non hunters alike who look at this kill kennels for what they are. If hunters want to associate with such activities then hunting must go away. Oh, condemn it all to the fiery, internal world of pain and godlessness, I let myself back in. In for a penny in for a pound. Does anyone think these farmed, pen raised lions removed from the umbrella of hunting could be used satisfy or slate the thirst for poached black market lion by product. Thus, taking poaching pressure off wild lion. I think in a perfect world yes. However, I do not think for one minute the international community would support such a scheme (see rhino, and you do not even kill rhino). The counter is that a legal market would allow a channel to funnel poached lion by product into the legal market increasing poaching. I have no idea if a legal market through pen raised lion would either increase poachingor decrease poaching. Assuming, that such a market scheme was not dead on arrival, what do the more experienced and in the know members think? Is it purely an academic exercise bc one could never get the international community on board? Someone in Trophy documentary said, “you are not going to get a billion people to stop believing animal by product is beneficial. Just like you are not going to get Christians to stop believing In Jesus.” That struck me. So much of the focus has been to get Asia to stop wanting animal by product. The demand is not going away. So, stop swimming up stream and find away to meet the demand. | |||
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Some good questions here. South Africa does permit the exportation of lion bones. In fact clever game ranchers can allow a captive bred lion to be hunted and then make additional money off of selling the carcass separately. However a recent study concluded that this kind of trade had little impact on wild lion populations in South Africa. The study did admit there was uncertainty about its effect on lion populations elsewhere in Africa. | |||
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If people are interested here is a link to the page where the paper can be accessed: Bones of Contention The report is 130 pages long but it has some interesting information in it even if you just skim the material. Interesting to note that in South Africa captive bred lions represent 95% of the lions hunted and only 5% are wild. And yes for the astute reader this does come from WildCRU at Oxford, the research team who studied Cecil. | |||
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Thank you very much. The similar program, for lack of a better word, I am thinking of is the alligator farms in the US. These are regulated, categorized, and understood by the public to commercial farming operations. No one is/was putting alligator farm alligators in a record book. By Providence, I hope not. Organized hunting and professional associations do not try to pass the alligator farm off as hunting. For lion I would require the animal to be euthanized on sight by a licensed Veterinarian with record keeping responsibilities to the body governing these farm to market lions. I not saying I support this. I am only explaining my thoughts. | |||
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