quote:

I have a few ideas in no particular order:

1. Petition SCI to stop or tone down their emphasis on the record book. Instead promote the message that the "trophy" is measured by the experience not in inches.

That might help on some levels, but as with SCI/Boone & Crockett/Pope & Young and any of the other Record Keeping organizations, they depend upon the competitiveness of their members to stay in business and it sim[ply cannot be ignored that the younger generations of hunters. especially Americans have evolved thriving on Competition and have developed a completely different attitude toward hunting and their role in the sport than those of us that are older and were raised with a totally different concept of what hunting meant. I do not know if that can be reversed.

2. Donate time or money to hunting causes that you believe in. That could be writing a check to help fund anti-poaching or taking a young person hunting.

I donate to the RMEF on a regular basis yearly. I also taught Hunters Ed here in Texas for a few years and enjoy helping beginning hunters get their first deer or hog.

3. Watch what we put out there on Facebook. That stuff is seen by so many people it isn't even funny.

I rarely post any pictures of asnything I have killed on FB, when I do it is just the animal and maybe the gun.

4. Distance ourselves from organizations like PHASA as folks in Zim, Zambia and Namibia have done.

5. Let the Outdoor Channel and other stations know that people like Pigman don't represent ethical hunting.

I do not watch any of the telivised hunting shows simply because as I said in number 1, our younger hunters have a completely different concept of what hunting is and their role in it.

6. We have some great hunting ambassadors out there. Thank them and tell them we appreciate their efforts. A simple thank you can go a long way.

I fully recognize that these recommendations are idealistic. But we have to start somewhere.

quote:

If enough hunters make it a point of condemning all the back slapping, smack talking and highfiving that takes place after an animal is killed and on the other hand call out positively hunters that are respectful and reflective after an animal is killed (such as the letzter bissen tradition), things will change.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

CHC is simply looking at the big picture, that the anti's have a simple objective: End all hunting..period, while we hunters continue to jerk around arguing personal ethics and morals instead of putting those things aside and forming a unified front to preserve our sport.

Totally agree and the word jerk seems pertinent here.

quote:

I hope that isn't directed at me Mr. Baldry as I have simply tried to be objective to both sides of the story in this pissing match.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

. . . it was simply another indication that one group in this "Discussion" has absolutely NO intentions of looking at the siutuation objectively or reasonably.

quote:

Please explain.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

Jines, I am looking at it objectively.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
African Lion Hunting!!

Its been an interesting / hot topic for me for over 20 years now. I've seen all kinds of opinions / takes on it, and I just wanted to set the record straight. Frankly, this has been more of a FB issue than here on AR where most are more African "savvy". But....I still thought I would post it here for comment!

Africa really has 3 kinds of lion hunts available - but I was obliged to do this based on a post I saw today by a guy I like / respect, who owns a fabulous reserve in S.A., one in which he hunts lions too.

His claim was hunting "baited / wild" lions is just an example of shooting lions....not hunting them. Well, as you can imagine I could NOT disagree more. So here's my take on it.

#1: First off, we have the "canned lion" issue. Not an avenue I am especially fond of, but none-the-less, an option. Most of the ridiculous / big maned / fat lions one sees on social media taken by the bow hunter - tv personality is just this type of hunt. Its a S.A. hunt, done where the lion is raised its entire life in a "cage", literally a cage, fed by humans and conditioned to a lot of human presence. Immediately prior to the hunter's arrival - its released into a hunting block, 5,000 - 50,000 acres, and hunted / shot for sport. The lion is oblivious to the new surroundings, what's going on, where he is - or who the hell these guys are barreling down on him in mass? Its not a hunt IMO, its a shoot - where success is virtually guaranteed, thus these hunts are generally 5 - 7 days, with a lot of that just a show about tracking the lion, etc. Thus why they are mainly done in the Kalahari region of SA - we all could track a lion there. Often times they will send you pics of the lions, and you can choose which one you want to shoot?

#2: Reserve / semi wild lions. Lions in these areas generally live on 20,000 - 50,000 acres of high fence property, where they live / hunt and fend for themselves. Rarely / if ever, are these lion hunts not 100% successful. Especially in S.A., where like in my "friend's" case, the lions live on 22,000 acres of high fence. You are going to get your lion, its just a matter of when (most hunts here are 5 to maybe 10 days) and which one you get. I've personally done one of these hunts in the Limpopo of S.A. We hunted a 40,000 acre plus property, the lions were in there - and my success I never felt was really in question. It was not easy hunting (all tracking) but I knew we would eventually get our intended target, and after only a few days we did. I was very satisfied with this hunt, but I would never confuse it with a "wild" lion hunt.

#3: True Wild Lion Hunting. I've personally done 19 true wild lion hunts, taking 14 wild male lions - roughly a 75% success rate - which is IMO is higher than normal. I've also been with numerous clients on these hunts, with generally good success. With the exception of my Botswana lion hunt - all were done via baiting. Botswana was a rare example of a place where wild lions can truly be "tracked", simply because of the terrain conditions.

In most wild lion areas like Zimbabwe, Zambia, Tanzania, Mozambique, etc, tracking a lion is virtually impossible - even for the greatest of trackers. Its all Miombo woodlands, thick grass, rocks, and very little to no sandy conditions. What you see on NatGeo on the savannahs of the Serengeti is not reality in wild Africa.

The fact is, most of the wild hunting blocks are 250,000 to 1 million plus acres of completely wild / unfenced areas with terrible road conditions, tsetsee flies by the thousands and long days / nights, hoping to find a cat. Lions are predators, thus they are few / far between. First one must hope to find the lions, then hope to strategically place baits where the lion might find it, and then hope the lion will feed (sometimes they will ignore baits all together) and finally hope it is a suitable male that will actually feed in the daylight. These hunts are off-limits to night shooting, and predators are night animals - they know the gig, and they know to avoid human contact.

Nothing is smarter than a predator....period! I've seen wild lions do amazing things to avoid human contact. I've seen lions eat a bait once and NEVER return. I've seen lions only come after dark, I've seen lions walk up to a bait, inspect it and walk off, I once hunted a lion in Zambia we called the Chamakube King. For 2.5 weeks we tried everything to kill this lion....we slept all night in the blind to be there at daylight with no vehicle presence, we moved the blind numerous times - finally to 150 yards away. No matter what we tried, he only came to feed on the days we were not there (every time), if we were there he would never show himself. He knew exactly what we were doing every single time - we finally gave up and left him be.

My average success on baited / wild lions took 15 days, but on 5 occasions I spent 21 days hunting wild lions with no success at all. Jeremiah Bennett and I once hunted a lion in Tanzania for 23 days of a 21 day hunt. We extended the hunt, just hoping to get this guy - we finally did on the 23rd morning. He was one of the smartest lions I have ever seen, but finally he made a mistake.

Fact is, "baiting" a wild lion is much like hunting mtn lion with dogs. The "hunt" is the essence of what you are trying to accomplish, not shooting the lion at a bait - 60 yards away. To finally convince a big male lion to first find your bait, come to your bait, and return to your bait during daylight hours is the hunt - not the killing of the lion. Then to assure he's old enough, he's without dependent cubs, etc, is another game all together.

I've been skunked twice in Tanzania, once in Zimbabwe, once in Zambia and once in Mozambique - all on 21 day safaris. Anyone who would ever claim hunting a lion over bait is just shooting a lion.....has either little experience doing so - or has an alternate motive in saying so...period! They are without question....the toughest adversary I have ever faced in the wild - hands down!

quote:

People, especially Americans have became so highly competitive on so many levels, including hunters, that when someone shoots something is equated as being a football player scoring a Touchdown complete with the End Zone display.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Anyone care to speculate how many pages this will go?

I think it should be renamed the “dog chasing his tail “ thread. It just keeps going round and round and round while getting nowhere.

Carry on gentlemen.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

People, especially Americans have became so highly competitive on so many levels, including hunters, that when someone shoots something is equated as being a football player scoring a Touchdown complete with the End Zone display.

You know who to thank for that and it is this same attitude that has flushed morals and ethics down the black hole! This competitive trend has given birth to a new breed of hunter, the one who must achieve his ultimate goal by hook or by crook, morals & ethics be damned!

A simple question Randall if I may:

Why are 99% of African hunts guided hunts - what is the reason for having to be guided by a PH when by and large the client is a seasoned hunter the likes of many here on AR?

I might add that not all PHs are "Lily White & Pussy Pure" but most of them are; correct, upstanding persons exercising their profession as per the hunter's dogma.

Our gracious host Saeed has on most of his recorded hunts displayed the accepted moral and ethical values expected of a passionate hunter unless he's edited a few segments here and there.

quote:

Why are 99% of African hunts guided?? Because it’s the law and the average( or experienced) African hunter hasn’t the ability to put together the logistics of a chase libre hunt. Too bad Cam Gregg is no longer with us to a allow those of us with a spirit of adventure to have a go at DIY Safaris.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Anyone care to speculate how many pages this will go?

I think it should be renamed the “dog chasing his tail “ thread. It just keeps going round and round and round while getting nowhere.

Carry on gentlemen.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

How many times do we need to read the same comments stated in a slightly different way....

quote:

How many times do we need to read the same comments stated in a slightly different way..

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:

The simple answer is that we have to police ourselves. We have to present a better image; to put our best foot forward so to speak.

An aircraft carrier cannot turn on a dime and so it is with hunting. There is simply too much momentum.

I have a few ideas in no particular order:

1. Petition SCI to stop or tone down their emphasis on the record book. Instead promote the message that the "trophy" is measured by the experience not in inches.

2. Donate time or money to hunting causes that you believe in. That could be writing a check to help fund anti-poaching or taking a young person hunting.

3. Watch what we put out there on Facebook. That stuff is seen by so many people it isn't even funny.

4. Distance ourselves from organizations like PHASA as folks in Zim, Zambia and Namibia have done.

5. Let the Outdoor Channel and other stations know that people like Pigman don't represent ethical hunting.

6. We have some great hunting ambassadors out there. Thank them and tell them we appreciate their efforts. A simple thank you can go a long way.

I fully recognize that these recommendations are idealistic. But we have to start somewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:
Aaron,

I feel the need to say that I'm sorry that your well informed thread got derailed. I'm partially to blame for us getting so off topic.

I did want to comment that I can understand why people who pass off canned lion as wild lion pisses you off. I've seen the lying myself and it boggles the mind the lengths that people will go to hide the true nature of their hunt.

I just thought I'd throw that out there. And seriously man you should consider writing a book. Unfortunately someday it might be the only thing left to show people what once existed....

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
Aaron, are you saying all wild lion quotas are filled every year? If not, I think if CBL lions were done away with at least some extra wild lions would be taken.

Any idea how many wild lions are taken legally each year in Africa. I think I read it is only 10 for RSA. I think there are 500 CBL lions taken so if only a small percentage of the CBL hunters decided to go for a wild lion I think it would have a huge impact.

Of course, that brings up the question of whether trophy hunting wild lions reduces or increases the lion population.

That last sentence wouldn't make sense to a non-hunter but I am sure everyone here does understand.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
Aaron, are you saying all wild lion quotas are filled every year? If not, I think if CBL lions were done away with at least some extra wild lions would be taken.

Any idea how many wild lions are taken legally each year in Africa. I think I read it is only 10 for RSA. I think there are 500 CBL lions taken so if only a small percentage of the CBL hunters decided to go for a wild lion I think it would have a huge impact.

Of course, that brings up the question of whether trophy hunting wild lions reduces or increases the lion population.

That last sentence wouldn't make sense to a non-hunter but I am sure everyone here does understand.

I will let Aaron answer for himself, but I guarantee you not all lion quotas are filled every year.

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:
I believe that as Aaron said, wild lions and canned lions represent two different markets. I don't see that banning canned lion would affect wild lion hunting much at all. The folks who hunt canned would simply stop hunting lion altogether.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:
I believe that as Aaron said, wild lions and canned lions represent two different markets. I don't see that banning canned lion would affect wild lion hunting much at all. The folks who hunt canned would simply stop hunting lion altogether.

+1, the demographics of canned lion hunters and those of wild lion hunters are very different. There might be a very few potential canned lion hunters that would cross over to be wild lion hunters if canned lion hunting was abolished, but it would be darn few. Couple that with the fact that quota is left over every year and the low probability of success on wild lion, it is pretty clear that canned lion hunting does nothing to conserve wild lion populations.