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Jines, the problem is you and your cronies believe that you are the FINAL authorities on how hunting should be conducted and who should be allowed to participate. Point of FACT is that you are NOT. I did not watch that show or the majority of other such shows, simply because that even though I SUPPORT anyone's ability to hunt whatever species is LEGAL and by whatever method is LEGAL, I cannot stand the actions of the majority of the folks on those shows, especially AFTER a kill is made. Unless I am mistaken, I believe from the comments made on here concerning the show it was those behiaviors in those two incidents that everybody had problems with! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Yup. Some of these arguments are ridiculous. Let me shape them another way. It is kind of like arguing that it is fine to drive the speed limit in the middle of a hurricane. It is legal. That croc is one of the most despicable things I have ever seen in hunting. Legal or not. | |||
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Mr. Shores, had the hunter that shot the Croc acted in a reasonably respectful manner after the kill was made, would you still have found it so despicable? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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What is there about my already explaining that there is a DIFFERENCE in supporting LEGAL hunting methods, but NOT supporting the behaviors of a hunter after the kill that YOU do not understand? As I asked Mr. Shores, would you have had the same problem with the Croc and Elephant kills had the hunters and other involved acted in a more respectful manner?? That only requires a Yes or No! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I think a case can be made for interlock devices on computers.  Mike | |||
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Randall sometimes seeing something in living color can show you something that words cannot. Is it really inconceivable to you that legal does not always equate to ethical and if we do do not police ourselves someone else will? | |||
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Well said crazy horse.This elitist group who are arguing against you know you are right and feel the same way you do.The problem is that you stood up to them somewhere, sometime and they are now coming at you like a pack of wild dogs. This same gang has been behaving like this for years on AR.There famous.Even in Africa they know who this group is. | |||
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Please George explain to him how we elitists are so incensed that he is right and will stop at nothing to make sure that he is silenced forever.  And then you can tell him about that free lesson on rifles you offered that chap at Westley Richards. Bet you set that guy straight! | |||
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This group reminds me of the elitist political groups you have in the US and many other countries.The hell with what is right or good for the people, it is what is good for them that is most important.What is happening to you crazy horse is like an embargo. | |||
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That said, the public is repulsed by captive lion bred hunting.They have a hard time swallowing that.But killing a mammal animal is killing a mammal animal period.Best to keep hunting and captive bred hunting separate as captive bred is not hunting but animal farming. Therefore if a hunting organization wants to exclude captive bred from shows etc.. it should be on the fact that it is not hunting.I am for the idea that captive bred be labelled as farming and not hunting any time it is advertised.That way we can try and prevent the hunting industry from being targeted. | |||
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“The public” is nothing but a bunch of hypocrites! They are quite happy turn a blind eye to all the killing that provide them with food. But scream their heads off when hunt! Stuff them! | |||
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That is true and I am sure they know that. | |||
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the Public just cant get their heads around the fact that we take pleasure in the killing of a "Majestic" Animal. They just dont care about everything that goes into it or that people get pleasure "killing" when they go fishing or the fact that cows get slaughtered for their pleasure in eating their delicious Steak. | |||
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They are very happy to take pleasure in eating all the pigs, cows, sheep, rabbits and chicken, when someone else does the killing though. | |||
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So you believe that Lion hunters live and operate on such a Higher Plane of being that stating that any form of hunting they do not agree with should be stopped, is perfectly acceptable and that people practicing those forms of hunting, though perfectly LEGAL shopuld not consider themselves hunters? Is that correct? Is it also correct that people that question that attitude/those beliefs in any manner should be banned from this site? In looking back I notice that Mr. Shores or none of the other Holier Than Thou have answered my querstion conmcerning what their attitude would have been had the individuals involved in the kills of the Croc and the Elephant hsad acted in reasonable/respectful manners? RXGremlin, did you watch the film? If so did the scenes of the croc and the elephant disgust you? If so were yoiu disgusted because they were Legal kills or because of the way those involved were acting? Care to answer that?
I do not view it that way Shootaway. I view it as a group of hunters that really enjoy and are dedicated to hunting lions and at this point in time they and those that feel the same way about hunting elephant are the ones that are facing losing what they love, sooner than the rest of us that hunt. While they do not believe beings like me are capable of such comprehension, I clearly see and understamd that the continuing ability for hunters to continue hunting lion and elephant is approaching a Day by Day status with that final day approaching all too rapidly. They believe that if hunters police themselves it will placate those that want hunting stopped they don't want to face the facvt that it isn't just the anti's that are questioning or wanting an end to elephant and lion hunting. They have developed an attack mode, anyone including other hunters that have no problem with their desire to continue hunting lion and elephant, seem to have became their enemies because they/we do not subscribe to their same level of "Ethical Behavior. I do not want to see ANY hunter, Any where lose their ability to hunt the species of their choice, because once it starts it will eventually affect all hunters. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Man, did this ever go off the rails or what? | |||
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""RXGremlin, did you watch the film? If so did the scenes of the croc and the elephant disgust you? If so were yoiu disgusted because they were Legal kills or because of the way those involved were acting? Care to answer that?"" Sigh, of course I watched the film Randall. I have posted several times about it in three different threads that you participated in. Maybe you do have a problem with reading comprehension and retention. Besides, why I would I recommend seeing a film that I myself had not seen? I will answer your question, but my answer would make more sense contextually if you had taken the time to watch the movie. The croc scene isn't hunting, it was an execution. One of the most vile things I have seen in the hunting world. A croc was moved from an enclosure and placed in a stock pond for a person to shoot. He did this while holding a beer, ran out of ammo in the middle of shooting it and called it a "motherfucker". It is legal but surely the most egregious violation of hunting ethics that I have seen. The elephant scene bothered many of us because the elephant wasn't finished off quickly. The hunt was legal and in fact the type I hunting I advocate. It was an "own use hunt" in Namibia where the purpose of the hunt was to provide meat to local people. In this case we on AR were upset that a subadult elephant was taken instead of a larger mature elephant that would have provided more meat to the locals. Does that answer your question? Have I satisfied you? What you have missed in this entire debate and what Mike Jines and others have tried to tell you is that appearances matter. How the world perceives us as hunters matter. We aren't elitists trying to limit hunting to a select few. We are saying that we need to do all we can to portray hunting in a positive light. We need to be more savvy individually and collectively and use social media to spread our message. But it is damn hard to spread that message if we stand shoulder to shoulder with people like the "croc hunter". Unfortunately the sad truth is that this is often a very emotional debate and facts are secondary. Nobody cares about Webster's definition of baiting, they get offended by the behavior of some hunters. That behavior comes from their individual ethics not whether it is legal. That is the battle we are fighting and that is the battle we are losing. | |||
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I would sure hope that some (any) of that would sink in but I am going to have to take the under on that bet. Good post though. Mike | |||
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SAEED, There are absolutes on what is right and wrong. Our various faiths affirm this. On ethics, legal is a law, not an ethical standard. I fully understand your meaning of what is legal in one country and not in another. Take abortion - legal in the US and others. Illegal in your country. What is right??? Life is holy to all, so abortion? Legal - yes, but abhorrently evil and wrong. On hunting - using B&C as a standard for fair chase and ethics is a good standard. Shooting baited, tamed, horn bred deer over a timed feeder is no different than shooting chickens in a chicken coop. If your ethics think this is ok, check again. | |||
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Your last comment is dead accurate. Ethics trump law... I have no example where ethics are not superior to laws... Pick any topic. If I had my way, there would be strict, mandatory firearms training in proficiency, ethics, ballistics, animal behavior etc. Much like the training needed to be a Zim PH. That would remove the slob hunters from our midst and give us a standard of performance that would drastically lower the number violators and non-skilled hunters. A three year testing period would be a start. I would start by banning baited deer hunts in enclosures in your fair state....and ask the TPWD to institute a strict testing/proficiency program. | |||
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AARON - Apologies to all the noise on this. You are the most proficient and credible Lion hunter I know of. Thanks for sharing your experiences here. | |||
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This is turning into a Soap Opera!  Some people cannot understand the difference between hunting a WILD LION and a CANNED ONE; what it takes to hunt a WILD one versus popping one which has been hand fed from birth and restrained in a caged environment. The client who ventures on a quest for a WILD Lion in a totally NATURAL environment will reduce his chances of any success to an optimistic 5% if he expects to score on a legal Lion without baiting. The ethical part refers to the application of the will and morals of the hunter from a sporting point of view; to hunt the subject in a fair manner and the baiting of predators is and has always been considered fair from a hunting perspective. Sure, there have been sporadic instances of a legal wild Lion having been shot on "chance encounter" but these, rest assured are few and far between. One of the main reasons behind baiting is to gain the possibility of being able to ascertain that the animal in question meets all the legal criteria, something which you would be hard-pressed for in concluding on a "chance encounter" unless they were glaringly obvious. The killing part is the end of the hunt and the animal should be dispatched with the least amount of suffering. We are already hated because of our nature to kill any of God's creatures large and small; to prolong their suffering increases the hate to rabid proportions. The "if its legal phrase" is a load of crap! To try and create a comparison between baiting a Lion or Leopard and a timed feeder for Deer and Hogs is absurd as the Deer or Hog will almost definitely bite the bullet - not so for the Cats. Aaron couldn't have given a better breakdown yet there are individuals who just cannot or don't want to accept the facts and wish only to create an argument for the sake of being argumentative. | |||
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Yes, in a way it answered my question, although a simple Yes or No would have sufficed. It was the actions/behaviors of those involved that was the problem, not the fact both were legal kills! Contrary to what you and your cronies believe or what I personally wish, the agencies in charge of establishing hunting laws and regulations, can not/ will not try to create laws governing the reactions i.e. End Zone Displays of hunters after they make a kill. Add to that, the Anti's do not care if a hunter breaks down like a baby, cries their eyes out, calls in a pastor/priest and begs forgiveness for killing such a wonderful creature, they are out to stop hunting. Individual hunting groups wanting to impose their personal ethics/beliefs onto other hunters that grew up with a different set of moral and social values are only aiding those that want to end hunting, nothing more or less. The saddest part will be if or when Elephant and Lion hunting are shut down and those that enjoyed those activities set back and finally realize that all their efforts to appease/placate those wanting that type hunting stopped were meaningless and all they managed to accomplish was alienate other hunters. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I am a hunter, I don't want to see you or anyone else lose the ability to hunt lion or leopard or elephant and that is the HONEST truth. Try operning your mind and understasnding, I am not the one comparing the baiting of predators with the baiting of herbivores! I am Not an Anti-Hunter or an uninformed Non-Hunter, I know the differences quite well! Now, if you cannot grasp this one simple concept than that is not my fault, those that want hunting stopped are no different than those wanting to end private firearm ownership. They Do Not CARE about the differences between baiting deer and lion, just like the anti gun people who believe all guns are bad, those wanting hunting stopped hear/read the word BAIT and the do not CARE what species it is or what the differences are! They want all hunting of any kind/in any manner stopped and right now at this point in time African Lions along with Leopards/Rhino/Elephant and Giraffe are the target species because the anti's are aware that lots a people both non-hunters and even some hunters question the hunting of those species, Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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"this is turning into a soap opera" All of Crazy Horses posts/threads are soap operas.He looks to participate only in discussions where no experience is required. | |||
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Just keep in mind folks, it is no skin whatsoever off my ass if Lion and Elephant hunting are closed down tommorow! All I have tried to point out is that one group of hunters really shouldn't set themselves and their beliefs concerning hunting on a pedestal and attempt to dictate how others should hunt or who should be allowed to consider or refer to themselves as a hunter. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Yup And you need to look no further than this thread if you doubt that the anti's will win. Ethics & morals are a complicated thing. As Saeed said, what is one man's wrong may be another man's right. When this is the case, we have to go above personal beliefs and look at the law. We might not like what it says but it's usually there in black and white. CHC is simply looking at the big picture, that the anti's have a simple objective: End all hunting..period, while we hunters continue to jerk around arguing personal ethics and morals instead of putting those things aside and forming a unified front to preserve our sport. I personally detest deer hunting with dogs. I have done it and will never again do so but it is legal in some areas of my state and I will stand shoulder to shoulder with the dog hunters to defend their choice to do so. I've never hunted lions and doubt I ever will. But, since it is legal to do so, if I were afforded the opportunity to hunt a released lion, I would do so in a heartbeat. And I would hope you would support my choice even though it is not your personal cup of tea. That's when the unity will begin. And we have to have that because no matter what we do or how we do it, we are never going to look good in the anti's eyes. 30+ years experience tells me that perfection hit at .264. Others are adequate but anything before or after is wishful thinking. | |||
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And there you have it! Sad........  | |||
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What I have been saying for years! If I do not participate in it, I could not careless about it! What a bloody attitude towards hunting! | |||
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Totally agree and the word jerk seems pertinent here. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Saeed, how many times does a person have to repeat themselves about not wanting to see ANYONE lose the ability to hunt the species of their choice or in the manner of their choice as long as it is legal and no one pays any attention. Remember, these same folks that find the "No Skin Off My Ass" copmment so offensive, are the EXACT same people openly stating that a form of hunting other hunters enjoy, should be outlawed. Which is sadder? Openly admitting that if one form of hunting is shut down there is nothing that can be done about it or openly stating that a form of hunting one does not agree with should be shut down? Can any of you that have participated in this discussion point to any post, other than the one where I stated it would be no skin off my ass, where I made ANY comment stating thatv I wanted to see Lion hunting stopped, None Of You Can! As for the no skin off my ass comment, FACT is, if lion hunting is stopped, I had absolutely No Control or Input on that decision and in the beginning it will have no affect on me, but as I also stated, and quite plainly, if lion and elephant hunting are stopped it will start the dominoes falling and just bring the end of all hunting that much closer. When someone/anyone can explaiin how hunters wanting their favorite form of hunting can expect other hunters to openly support them, while openly stating that they want to see a form of hunting those hunters enjoy stopped. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Here go Fairgame, why didn't you post the whole comment, or just pushing your own narrative?
Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting: Just keep in mind folks, it is no skin whatsoever off my ass if Lion and Elephant hunting are closed down tommorow! All I can say that unfortunately the big losers will be the wildlife and the locals. There will be literal skin taken off of asses in both cases. If hunting for elephants and lions stops in rural areas there will be an increase in human/wildlife conflict. Animals will be killed indiscriminately by people who want to protect their livestock and crops. People will be be mauled and killed trying to save what little they have. Loss of revenue due to hunting will mean that poaching increases and jobs will be lost. This is a bigger issue than simply foreigners losing the ability to hunt. Sure the die hard anti-hunters want all hunting stopped. No debate about that. What we can do is convince people in the middle that hunting can and does work as a conservation tool. But in order to for them to listen we need to present a compelling argument. In a debate where emotions run high, the yahoos and the slob hunters do us no favors. Images can be very powerful and people like the croc hunter destroy the credibility of ethical hunters. People in the middle see stuff like that and they forget any rational evidence that is presented. In this case I contend that it isn't about numbers its about image. | |||
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Ok, I will roll around the mud a bit longer with you on this. I fully realize that there is no changing your mind or mine on this - so this is a exercise in futility however, I never expected a rational result. Again, ethics/standards/morals are what drive behavior = not laws. Look around and see if you can tell the difference. Ethics drive feelings and reactions - not laws. Saying "that is against the law" means nothing to me. I have to internalize and accept that the law is good to accept. Take the Jews or Muslims - they have the Torah and Koran - books of laws. They include practices some find totally objectionable (animal sacrifice, restrictions on deformed people being part of worship, and many others). Unless you "own" the law internally, you do not obey the law or the intent of the law. However, your moral code or ethics drive that. In hunting pet/conditioned deer or pigs or whatever - that violates all sense of fairness, "rightness" or fair chase for the hunter - or at least it should. The animal is conditioned to come to food on a regular time frame. They are photographed and graded to decide who/when they are killed. Is that hunting??? I would say no. I would take it a step further - I would say no for you or any other hunter. Further, as I said earlier - without in internal moral compass, how in the world do you decide what is right or wrong??? A long term training/testing program designed to weed out slob hunters or lazy hunters or those not competent with firearms is an option. I have seen in Europe and other places. It works. Look at a Zim PH or one who has been formally trained and tested. Compare that one to a guide in the US . Huge difference usually. We will not resolve this on AR, but I would say that if we do not make the case that we are ethical, moral and truly skilled AND legal - expect your hunting from a box with feeders and cameras and whatever else you think is needed to bring home some venison - to disappear.... And so it should. | |||
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Again - AARON - great post and I appreciate what you hunt, how you hunt and your willingness to share your experiences here. | |||
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Exactly, but HOW do you control in ANY manner the actions of other individuals? Who will be held responsible for Policing the reactions of each and every hunter when they kill something when so much hunting, especiaslly in America has basically been turned into a Competitive Sport?? Are Game Wardens going to have to start writing tickets if they witness a hunter High Fiving his buddies if he kills a good buck??????? World Wide our society and its values have changed. People, especially Americans have became so highly competitive on so many levels, including hunters, that when someone shoots something is equated as being a football player scoring a Touchdown complete with the End Zone display. I FUCKING HATE the way so many of todays hunters act when making a kill, that is why I didn't watch the Trophy program because I knew up front there would be scenes of someone acting like a total idiot and showing a side of some hunters that should not be shown! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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And there it finally is, but what you and your cronies are incapable of comprehending or accepting is the FACT, that Ethics-Standards-Morals and Personal Values are NOT a One Size Fits All concept! Morals-Ethis-Standards-Values are developed within the INDIVIDUAL based on where they live, how they were raised, who raised them, where they were raised, the social/economic/familial groups they were raised in/around and the amount and quality of education they have. For ANYONE to actually expect or basically demand that EVERYONE else share the EXACT same morals-values-ethis and standards is not only naive but incredibly ludicrous and for a hunter, ANY hunter to expect Anti-Hunters/Non-Hunters and even other hunters to share the exact same concepts that they have is idiotic in the extreme. I do not agree with the Pick Your Trophy operations for White tails and would not go on one, but I ain't gonna hold it against those that do, it is their business not mine. Beauty of this whole discussion is the comments made about ethics/morals/standards/values, and at no point has anyoner said that hunting for lionsd over bait should be outlawed, but those lion hunters have had no problem at all openly claiming that a form of hunting that takes place on a much larger scale in America yearly than lion hunting in Africa ever has, should be outlawed. I have not seen any American hunters call for an end to lion hunting and this discussion has clearly displayed for all that care to look that some lion hunters set themselves on a higher level and realyy are not concerned about anything but holding on to what THEY want to do. That is what is Sad. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Exactly, but HOW do you control in ANY manner the actions of other individuals? Who will be held responsible for Policing the reactions of each and every hunter when they kill something when so much hunting, especiaslly in America has basically been turned into a Competitive Sport?? Are Game Wardens going to have to start writing tickets if they witness a hunter High Fiving his buddies if he kills a good buck??????? World Wide our society and its values have changed. People, especially Americans have became so highly competitive on so many levels, including hunters, that when someone shoots something is equated as being a football player scoring a Touchdown complete with the End Zone display. I FUCKING HATE the way so many of todays hunters act when making a kill, that is why I didn't watch the Trophy program because I knew up front there would be scenes of someone acting like a total idiot and showing a side of some hunters that should not be shown![/QUOTE] See Randall we found some common ground here. I too detest the behavior of many hunters on TV. You asked the question of what do we do about it. The simple answer is that we have to police ourselves. We have to present a better image; to put our best foot forward so to speak. An aircraft carrier cannot turn on a dime and so it is with hunting. There is simply too much momentum. I have a few ideas in no particular order: 1. Petition SCI to stop or tone down their emphasis on the record book. Instead promote the message that the "trophy" is measured by the experience not in inches. 2. Donate time or money to hunting causes that you believe in. That could be writing a check to help fund anti-poaching or taking a young person hunting. 3. Watch what we put out there on Facebook. That stuff is seen by so many people it isn't even funny. 4. Distance ourselves from organizations like PHASA as folks in Zim, Zambia and Namibia have done. 5. Let the Outdoor Channel and other stations know that people like Pigman don't represent ethical hunting. 6. We have some great hunting ambassadors out there. Thank them and tell them we appreciate their efforts. A simple thank you can go a long way. I fully recognize that these recommendations are idealistic. But we have to start somewhere. | |||
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There are plenty of examples of how hunters have used peer pressure among the fraternity of hunters to effectuate positive change. It was not that many years ago when spread was the measure of a good buffalo, age and boss be damned. Today there is a much greater emphasis on shooting mature, hard bossed bulls even if that means sacrificing spread. In fact, today you hear talk of "scum caps" as being the ultimate trophy with some hunters. There is no international court of hunting ethics, it is hunters acting collectively as a group to set an acceptable standard of behavior. If enough hunters make it a point of condemning all the back slapping, smack talking and highfiving that takes place after an animal is killed and on the other hand call out positively hunters that are respectful and reflective after an animal is killed (such as the letzter bissen tradition), things will change. It's not rocket science. Mike | |||
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