quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

In most wild lion areas like Zimbabwe, Zambia, Tanzania, Mozambique, etc, tracking a lion is virtually impossible - even for the greatest of trackers. Its all Miombo woodlands, thick grass, rocks, and very little to no sandy conditions.

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Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

In most wild lion areas like Zimbabwe, Zambia, Tanzania, Mozambique, etc, tracking a lion is virtually impossible - even for the greatest of trackers. Its all Miombo woodlands, thick grass, rocks, and very little to no sandy conditions.

I have done it several times with Buzz and his trackers. In each case we ultimately caught the lions. Tracking lions remains one of the most memorable things I have ever done in Africa . . . not because we ever pulled the trigger but simply to have been able to watch the trackers do the impossible. Good trackers are professionals in every sense of that word.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

In most wild lion areas like Zimbabwe, Zambia, Tanzania, Mozambique, etc, tracking a lion is virtually impossible - even for the greatest of trackers. Its all Miombo woodlands, thick grass, rocks, and very little to no sandy conditions.

I have done it several times with Buzz and his trackers. In each case we ultimately caught the lions. Tracking lions remains one of the most memorable things I have ever done in Africa . . . not because we ever pulled the trigger but simply to have been able to watch the trackers do the impossible. Good trackers are professionals in every sense of that word.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
But why do some folks find it perfectly ACCEPTABLE to shoot a lion or leopard or black bear over a bait, yet find shooting hoof stock over a bait pile or waterhole or standing at or near a vehicle totally DEPLORABLE????

Are hunters not sending mixed messages?

Where are the lines drawn and who is responsible for drawing them?

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No matter what form of hunting of whatever animal you choose( predators/herbivores over bait/ at night/ tracking/ with dogs, ad infinitum), there will ALWAYS be people who complain..

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Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
African Lion Hunting!!

Its been an interesting / hot topic for me for over 20 years now. I've seen all kinds of opinions / takes on it, and I just wanted to set the record straight. Frankly, this has been more of a FB issue than here on AR where most are more African "savvy". But....I still thought I would post it here for comment!

Africa really has 3 kinds of lion hunts available - but I was obliged to do this based on a post I saw today by a guy I like / respect, who owns a fabulous reserve in S.A., one in which he hunts lions too.

His claim was hunting "baited / wild" lions is just an example of shooting lions....not hunting them. Well, as you can imagine I could NOT disagree more. So here's my take on it.

#1: First off, we have the "canned lion" issue. Not an avenue I am especially fond of, but none-the-less, an option. Most of the ridiculous / big maned / fat lions one sees on social media taken by the bow hunter - tv personality is just this type of hunt. Its a S.A. hunt, done where the lion is raised its entire life in a "cage", literally a cage, fed by humans and conditioned to a lot of human presence. Immediately prior to the hunter's arrival - its released into a hunting block, 5,000 - 50,000 acres, and hunted / shot for sport. The lion is oblivious to the new surroundings, what's going on, where he is - or who the hell these guys are barreling down on him in mass? Its not a hunt IMO, its a shoot - where success is virtually guaranteed, thus these hunts are generally 5 - 7 days, with a lot of that just a show about tracking the lion, etc. Thus why they are mainly done in the Kalahari region of SA - we all could track a lion there. Often times they will send you pics of the lions, and you can choose which one you want to shoot?

#2: Reserve / semi wild lions. Lions in these areas generally live on 20,000 - 50,000 acres of high fence property, where they live / hunt and fend for themselves. Rarely / if ever, are these lion hunts not 100% successful. Especially in S.A., where like in my "friend's" case, the lions live on 22,000 acres of high fence. You are going to get your lion, its just a matter of when (most hunts here are 5 to maybe 10 days) and which one you get. I've personally done one of these hunts in the Limpopo of S.A. We hunted a 40,000 acre plus property, the lions were in there - and my success I never felt was really in question. It was not easy hunting (all tracking) but I knew we would eventually get our intended target, and after only a few days we did. I was very satisfied with this hunt, but I would never confuse it with a "wild" lion hunt.

#3: True Wild Lion Hunting. I've personally done 19 true wild lion hunts, taking 14 wild male lions - roughly a 75% success rate - which is IMO is higher than normal. I've also been with numerous clients on these hunts, with generally good success. With the exception of my Botswana lion hunt - all were done via baiting. Botswana was a rare example of a place where wild lions can truly be "tracked", simply because of the terrain conditions.

In most wild lion areas like Zimbabwe, Zambia, Tanzania, Mozambique, etc, tracking a lion is virtually impossible - even for the greatest of trackers. Its all Miombo woodlands, thick grass, rocks, and very little to no sandy conditions. What you see on NatGeo on the savannahs of the Serengeti is not reality in wild Africa.

The fact is, most of the wild hunting blocks are 250,000 to 1 million plus acres of completely wild / unfenced areas with terrible road conditions, tsetsee flies by the thousands and long days / nights, hoping to find a cat. Lions are predators, thus they are few / far between. First one must hope to find the lions, then hope to strategically place baits where the lion might find it, and then hope the lion will feed (sometimes they will ignore baits all together) and finally hope it is a suitable male that will actually feed in the daylight. These hunts are off-limits to night shooting, and predators are night animals - they know the gig, and they know to avoid human contact.

Nothing is smarter than a predator....period! I've seen wild lions do amazing things to avoid human contact. I've seen lions eat a bait once and NEVER return. I've seen lions only come after dark, I've seen lions walk up to a bait, inspect it and walk off, I once hunted a lion in Zambia we called the Chamakube King. For 2.5 weeks we tried everything to kill this lion....we slept all night in the blind to be there at daylight with no vehicle presence, we moved the blind numerous times - finally to 150 yards away. No matter what we tried, he only came to feed on the days we were not there (every time), if we were there he would never show himself. He knew exactly what we were doing every single time - we finally gave up and left him be.

My average success on baited / wild lions took 15 days, but on 5 occasions I spent 21 days hunting wild lions with no success at all. Jeremiah Bennett and I once hunted a lion in Tanzania for 23 days of a 21 day hunt. We extended the hunt, just hoping to get this guy - we finally did on the 23rd morning. He was one of the smartest lions I have ever seen, but finally he made a mistake.

Fact is, "baiting" a wild lion is much like hunting mtn lion with dogs. The "hunt" is the essence of what you are trying to accomplish, not shooting the lion at a bait - 60 yards away. To finally convince a big male lion to first find your bait, come to your bait, and return to your bait during daylight hours is the hunt - not the killing of the lion. Then to assure he's old enough, he's without dependent cubs, etc, is another game all together.

I've been skunked twice in Tanzania, once in Zimbabwe, once in Zambia and once in Mozambique - all on 21 day safaris. Anyone who would ever claim hunting a lion over bait is just shooting a lion.....has either little experience doing so - or has an alternate motive in saying so...period! They are without question....the toughest adversary I have ever faced in the wild - hands down!

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OK, the above is all true, and I cannot find anything to disagree on.

Now let us look at it from the antis view.

As far as they concerned, ALL HUNTING SHOULD BE ELIMINATED.

There is no argument about that.

So if we go back to what Aaron posted above, why are some of us getting their knickers in the twist if someone wants to shoot a farm bred animal?

Notice I did not say "lion".

I meant all animals.

Because by getting on the side of the antis when it comes to "canned" lions, we are paving the way for them to start on other animals once lions are sorted out.

Think about it.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

No matter what form of hunting of whatever animal you choose( predators/herbivores over bait/ at night/ tracking/ with dogs, ad infinitum), there will ALWAYS be people who complain..

That is a fact, but when it is HUNTERS, who are ALL being attacked, why attack ourselves?

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Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

No matter what form of hunting of whatever animal you choose( predators/herbivores over bait/ at night/ tracking/ with dogs, ad infinitum), there will ALWAYS be people who complain..

That is a fact, but when it is HUNTERS, who are ALL being attacked, why attack ourselves?

You would do well to read what you write?

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It is all to do with “do as I say, not as I do”!

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You must walk with a list carrying such a big chip around on your shoulder.

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Originally posted by Tim Herald:
My answer to Aaron on FB ...
Aaron I have to agree with your assessments of the types of hunts. To each their own, and I don't want to downgrade anyone, but it really kills me when folks who have shot a #1 lion (completely captive reared cat) and try to play it off like it is a #3 completely wild lion. To me it is a disrespect for a wild lion hunt as I agree they are terribly difficult, and you are up against one of the world's toughest adversaries. If you do it, by whichever means, be truthful about it, and own it. It's your choice and as long a sit is legal, it's all good. Just don't misrepresent because there is an unbelievable difference in a #1 and #3 hunt.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

You must walk with a list carrying such a big chip around on your shoulder.

Well you are wrong, and you need to "Give It A Rest", because some of you folks are damn sure blind to the FACT that if hunting for ANY SPECIES is Lost, it will just make it easier to get hunting for OTHER SPECIES stopped.

Evidently some of you never comprehended the FACT that a decade or so back, the folks that want hunting stopped changed their game plan and are concentrating on getting it done "One species at a time" and it will work if hunters do not stop alienating each other.

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Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

You must walk with a list carrying such a big chip around on your shoulder.

Well you are wrong, and you need to "Give It A Rest", because some of you folks are damn sure blind to the FACT that if hunting for ANY SPECIES is Lost, it will just make it easier to get hunting for OTHER SPECIES stopped.

Evidently some of you never comprehended the FACT that a decade or so back, the folks that want hunting stopped changed their game plan and are concentrating on getting it done "One species at a time" and it will work if hunters do not stop alienating each other.

We are not talking about not hunting a species. We have been discussing whether hunters and hunting organizations should glorify and patronize particular methods of taking those spices. Methods many of us fill were never part of the hunting tradition and will result in the hunting of species to end.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
African Lion Hunting!!

Fact is, "baiting" a wild lion is much like hunting mtn lion with dogs. The "hunt" is the essence of what you are trying to accomplish, not shooting the lion at a bait - 60 yards away. To finally convince a big male lion to first find your bait, come to your bait, and return to your bait during daylight hours is the hunt - not the killing of the lion. Then to assure he's old enough, he's without dependent cubs, etc, is another game all together.

quote:

Originally posted by DesertRam:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
African Lion Hunting!!

Fact is, "baiting" a wild lion is much like hunting mtn lion with dogs. The "hunt" is the essence of what you are trying to accomplish, not shooting the lion at a bait - 60 yards away. To finally convince a big male lion to first find your bait, come to your bait, and return to your bait during daylight hours is the hunt - not the killing of the lion. Then to assure he's old enough, he's without dependent cubs, etc, is another game all together.

Wonderful post Aaron - thanks from someone who has not and very likely never will get to hunt wild lions in Africa (though I'm hopeful that a mountain lion hunt is in my future!).

Two things about this statement.

First, antis will wonder why then, it's not adequate to expend all the effort described above and then click a nice picture and jet back to your cushy office in the states. I understand the kill, many do not and will pose the question.

Second, I think this statement gets to the heart of Randall's argument too. I once had a TX deer lease, where many of the deer were shot from stands overlooking feeders. When I first shot a deer like this, I wasn't terribly excited. Sure, it worked, I got a deer and put some great meat int the freezer. It wasn't until I had been a member for several years and had worked the land, cleared shooting lanes, set feeders, built stands and blinds, mowed mesquite to improve range conditions, in short came to understand the game and the land, that I truly appreciated the TX deer hunt experience. The "Hunt" is in the preparation. Perhaps that is why Randall appreciates it so - he does all that work. The hunter who shows up, shoots a deer from a blind, and leaves, is missing out on 90% of the baited/blind hunt.

Incidentally, in my several years associated with that lease, I don't recall a big buck getting shot at a feeders. Nearby, sure, but our bigger bucks were usually seen and shot in natural or man-made clearings that could be observed from a permanent or temporary blind. The big guys didn't stand around and eat tasty corn.

quote:

It wasn't until I had been a member for several years and had worked the land, cleared shooting lanes, set feeders, built stands and blinds, mowed mesquite to improve range conditions, in short came to understand the game and the land, that I truly appreciated the TX deer hunt experience. The "Hunt" is in the preparation. Perhaps that is why Randall appreciates it so - he does all that work. The hunter who shows up, shoots a deer from a blind, and leaves, is missing out on 90% of the baited/blind hunt.

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Originally posted by Hutty:
As far as "hunting personalities" passing off SA canned lions as a spot and stalk of wild lions is an insult to both hunters and lions. You want to do it for your TV go right ahead, just let people know ahead of time.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Hutty:
As far as "hunting personalities" passing off SA canned lions as a spot and stalk of wild lions is an insult to both hunters and lions. You want to do it for your TV go right ahead, just let people know ahead of time.

I gotta be honest...this pisses me off! Perhaps a bit of a selfish point of view, but I hate seeing these huge maned / over-weight (obviously canned lions) posted on social media, or aired on youtube / tv, and passed off as wild lions. It is an insult...and its simply trying to deceive the un-knowing public for personal gain / glorification, at least that's my opinion. Its no different than shooting a 230" whitetail at a feeder in a high fence, and then portraying it to the viewing public as a wild / free range buck that one spent 10 days of hard hunting to get.

Just tell it like it is, so others know what they are watching and what their potential opportunities might be as well. My argument here isn't about "not doing it"....you've already done it, but to portray it as something its not is simply deceitful to the viewers. Then sometimes it gets worse....like, he just came across the Kalahari from Botswana, he was a nuisance / cattle killer and needed to be taken out, and my personal favorite was the "Driven" tv show with Pat & Nicole. She first explains to the viewers how they are now moving to another hunting territory where there are more lions "per square mile", ya no kidding! As she is exiting the truck with bow in hand to begin her "stalk" - surrounded by more guns than I have ever owned, the lion can totally been seen lying under the tree 80 yards away wondering what the hell is going on? Good heavens I about died!

I'm asked on occasion about some of my lions, and why I'm shooting small maned lions - compared to the big hairy monsters folks see on Facebook, youtube, etc. I just shake my head!

quote:

Originally posted by rxgremlin:
Aaron,

Did you notice a difference in lion behavior between your "reserve" lion hunt and wild hunts?
I know its kinda apples and oranges with tracking versus baiting but I guess I'm asking whether the reserve lions acted more like wild lions or pen raised lions.

To me this type of hunt is more defensible than a true canned hunt.

As I understand it, each province in SA sets the minimum time from release of the lion to the start of the hunt. Does anyone know what the average is or what province requires the longest interval? Or frankly if these regulations are universally followed. How would a foreign hunter even know? I could see that having a lion loose on a game ranch for an extended period could become a very expensive proposition for the owner.

In his new book "From the Cape to the Kasserine" Boddington writes that his wife Donna did a lion hunt in S. Africa. He says that he was told that the lions while all introduced had been roaming the property for at least six months. He was also told that no lion on the property had taken more than three days to make a natural kill. The prime candidates were gemsbok, kudu and wildebeest. So, if my math is correct we are talking about an average of 60 large antelope being taken by one of these lions. That sounds like a big butcher bill.

Another thought that I had is that I'm not entirely convinced that these canned hunts take much pressure off of wild lions. I think that the people that have the resources to hunt wild lions hunt wild lions and those who don't hunt canned lions. I can't see a person that has the time and money to hunt wild lion to choose to go canned.

Any opinions?

quote:

#1: First off, we have the "canned lion" issue. Not an avenue I am especially fond of, but none-the-less, an option. Most of the ridiculous / big maned / fat lions one sees on social media taken by the bow hunter - tv personality is just this type of hunt. Its a S.A. hunt, done where the lion is raised its entire life in a "cage", literally a cage, fed by humans and conditioned to a lot of human presence. Immediately prior to the hunter's arrival - its released into a hunting block, 5,000 - 50,000 acres, and hunted / shot for sport. The lion is oblivious to the new surroundings, what's going on, where he is - or who the hell these guys are barreling down on him in mass? Its not a hunt IMO, its a shoot - where success is virtually guaranteed, thus these hunts are generally 5 - 7 days, with a lot of that just a show about tracking the lion, etc. Thus why they are mainly done in the Kalahari region of SA - we all could track a lion there. Often times they will send you pics of the lions, and you can choose which one you want to shoot?

#2: Reserve / semi wild lions. Lions in these areas generally live on 20,000 - 50,000 acres of high fence property, where they live / hunt and fend for themselves. Rarely / if ever, are these lion hunts not 100% successful. Especially in S.A., where like in my "friend's" case, the lions live on 22,000 acres of high fence. You are going to get your lion, its just a matter of when (most hunts here are 5 to maybe 10 days) and which one you get. I've personally done one of these hunts in the Limpopo of S.A. We hunted a 40,000 acre plus property, the lions were in there - and my success I never felt was really in question. It was not easy hunting (all tracking) but I knew we would eventually get our intended target, and after only a few days we did. I was very satisfied with this hunt, but I would never confuse it with a "wild" lion hunt.

#3: True Wild Lion Hunting. I've personally done 19 true wild lion hunts, taking 14 wild male lions - roughly a 75% success rate - which is IMO is higher than normal. I've also been with numerous clients on these hunts, with generally good success. With the exception of my Botswana lion hunt - all were done via baiting. Botswana was a rare example of a place where wild lions can truly be "tracked", simply because of the terrain conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Hunting on a farm, no matter what animal, and no matter how big the farm is, it is never the same as hunting in the wild.

It boils down to one thing.

And that is in my mind, I know there is a fence around.

That, by itself, takes the ultimate edge off hunting.

It has nothing to do how difficult the hunt is, or how far one has to track and follow an animal.

It is just KNOWING that I am hunting on a farm.

Nothing wrong with it whatsoever.

It just different for me.

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Originally posted by postoak:

quote:

#1: First off, we have the "canned lion" issue. Not an avenue I am especially fond of, but none-the-less, an option. Most of the ridiculous / big maned / fat lions one sees on social media taken by the bow hunter - tv personality is just this type of hunt. Its a S.A. hunt, done where the lion is raised its entire life in a "cage", literally a cage, fed by humans and conditioned to a lot of human presence. Immediately prior to the hunter's arrival - its released into a hunting block, 5,000 - 50,000 acres, and hunted / shot for sport. The lion is oblivious to the new surroundings, what's going on, where he is - or who the hell these guys are barreling down on him in mass? Its not a hunt IMO, its a shoot - where success is virtually guaranteed, thus these hunts are generally 5 - 7 days, with a lot of that just a show about tracking the lion, etc. Thus why they are mainly done in the Kalahari region of SA - we all could track a lion there. Often times they will send you pics of the lions, and you can choose which one you want to shoot?

#2: Reserve / semi wild lions. Lions in these areas generally live on 20,000 - 50,000 acres of high fence property, where they live / hunt and fend for themselves. Rarely / if ever, are these lion hunts not 100% successful. Especially in S.A., where like in my "friend's" case, the lions live on 22,000 acres of high fence. You are going to get your lion, its just a matter of when (most hunts here are 5 to maybe 10 days) and which one you get. I've personally done one of these hunts in the Limpopo of S.A. We hunted a 40,000 acre plus property, the lions were in there - and my success I never felt was really in question. It was not easy hunting (all tracking) but I knew we would eventually get our intended target, and after only a few days we did. I was very satisfied with this hunt, but I would never confuse it with a "wild" lion hunt.

#3: True Wild Lion Hunting. I've personally done 19 true wild lion hunts, taking 14 wild male lions - roughly a 75% success rate - which is IMO is higher than normal. I've also been with numerous clients on these hunts, with generally good success. With the exception of my Botswana lion hunt - all were done via baiting. Botswana was a rare example of a place where wild lions can truly be "tracked", simply because of the terrain conditions.

- Aaron Neilson

I think you could add 2 additional categories although they may not exist in actuality, but could:

4) High-fenced wild lions (actually, I am guessing the Save Valley and Bubye Conservancies offer this). But this could be offered on a smaller scale with just enough animals to offer up one 6 YO male and one 6 YO female per year. The cost to feed all those lions might raise the price of such lions to significantly higher than wild lions but this may be a way forward.

5) Wild lions -- no baiting. No one does this I suppose, but just walking through lion areas until you come upon a 6 Y/O or older lion and taking it would be the ultimate hunt experience, I would think.