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Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

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Originally posted by DesertRam:

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Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
African Lion Hunting!!

Fact is, "baiting" a wild lion is much like hunting mtn lion with dogs. The "hunt" is the essence of what you are trying to accomplish, not shooting the lion at a bait - 60 yards away. To finally convince a big male lion to first find your bait, come to your bait, and return to your bait during daylight hours is the hunt - not the killing of the lion. Then to assure he's old enough, he's without dependent cubs, etc, is another game all together.

Wonderful post Aaron - thanks from someone who has not and very likely never will get to hunt wild lions in Africa (though I'm hopeful that a mountain lion hunt is in my future!).

Two things about this statement.

First, antis will wonder why then, it's not adequate to expend all the effort described above and then click a nice picture and jet back to your cushy office in the states. I understand the kill, many do not and will pose the question.

Second, I think this statement gets to the heart of Randall's argument too. I once had a TX deer lease, where many of the deer were shot from stands overlooking feeders. When I first shot a deer like this, I wasn't terribly excited. Sure, it worked, I got a deer and put some great meat int the freezer. It wasn't until I had been a member for several years and had worked the land, cleared shooting lanes, set feeders, built stands and blinds, mowed mesquite to improve range conditions, in short came to understand the game and the land, that I truly appreciated the TX deer hunt experience. The "Hunt" is in the preparation. Perhaps that is why Randall appreciates it so - he does all that work. The hunter who shows up, shoots a deer from a blind, and leaves, is missing out on 90% of the baited/blind hunt.

Incidentally, in my several years associated with that lease, I don't recall a big buck getting shot at a feeders. Nearby, sure, but our bigger bucks were usually seen and shot in natural or man-made clearings that could be observed from a permanent or temporary blind. The big guys didn't stand around and eat tasty corn.

WHY THE KILL??? That's a question asked for decades by antis....it'll never change. Explaining why "we" kill to someone who has no conception of it is pointless IMO....they'll never get it. I kill because I have a deep-seeded instinct to "hunt / kill", and other personal reasons why I do it. I'm sure we all have our reasons. Your point isn't invalid...I just think the reasons why are so dis-connected between the two parties that any explanation falls on deaf ears.

quote:

Originally posted by DesertRam:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by DesertRam:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
African Lion Hunting!!

Fact is, "baiting" a wild lion is much like hunting mtn lion with dogs. The "hunt" is the essence of what you are trying to accomplish, not shooting the lion at a bait - 60 yards away. To finally convince a big male lion to first find your bait, come to your bait, and return to your bait during daylight hours is the hunt - not the killing of the lion. Then to assure he's old enough, he's without dependent cubs, etc, is another game all together.

Wonderful post Aaron - thanks from someone who has not and very likely never will get to hunt wild lions in Africa (though I'm hopeful that a mountain lion hunt is in my future!).

Two things about this statement.

First, antis will wonder why then, it's not adequate to expend all the effort described above and then click a nice picture and jet back to your cushy office in the states. I understand the kill, many do not and will pose the question.

Second, I think this statement gets to the heart of Randall's argument too. I once had a TX deer lease, where many of the deer were shot from stands overlooking feeders. When I first shot a deer like this, I wasn't terribly excited. Sure, it worked, I got a deer and put some great meat int the freezer. It wasn't until I had been a member for several years and had worked the land, cleared shooting lanes, set feeders, built stands and blinds, mowed mesquite to improve range conditions, in short came to understand the game and the land, that I truly appreciated the TX deer hunt experience. The "Hunt" is in the preparation. Perhaps that is why Randall appreciates it so - he does all that work. The hunter who shows up, shoots a deer from a blind, and leaves, is missing out on 90% of the baited/blind hunt.

Incidentally, in my several years associated with that lease, I don't recall a big buck getting shot at a feeders. Nearby, sure, but our bigger bucks were usually seen and shot in natural or man-made clearings that could be observed from a permanent or temporary blind. The big guys didn't stand around and eat tasty corn.

WHY THE KILL??? That's a question asked for decades by antis....it'll never change. Explaining why "we" kill to someone who has no conception of it is pointless IMO....they'll never get it. I kill because I have a deep-seeded instinct to "hunt / kill", and other personal reasons why I do it. I'm sure we all have our reasons. Your point isn't invalid...I just think the reasons why are so dis-connected between the two parties that any explanation falls on deaf ears.

My point is valid, since it's the same one you just made. You and I understand our own human predatory nature, we know why we hunt and kill. I wasn't asking the question since I get it. I was simply pointing out that your argument in favor of the hunt will never be met with understanding from the antis - just what you said. I'm not arguing with you, just recognizing the chink in your otherwise well put together armor.

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It is all to do with “do as I say, not as I do”!

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

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It is all to do with “do as I say, not as I do”!

I am starting this with the comment Saeed made earlier in thisc "Discussion" and I am going to do my best to clear up a few misconceptions some of you folks have concerning my comments.

While shooting a deer over a bait is NOT the same as shooting a Lion over a bait, that is only in the mind/belief of the hunter. I have shot a bear over a bait and to myself there was a big difference in having a large predator looking up toward me in that stand than either a deer or feral hog, but for those wanting to take hunting from us, There IS NO fundamental difference!

As a human being, the Ultimate Predatorv on this Planet, we are stacking the odds in our favor of making a kill and THAT is all the anti's understand.

As I stated earlier in this conversation, the first 20 years of my deer hunting career, all my deer were killed by spot and stalk. Even with my mobility problems at my age I still wish that I could hunt that way, but few if ANY Texas Landowners want or will allow hunters to wander around on their properties due to liability issues.

That I can no longer hunt in the manner I most enjoy here in my home state, is why I have made several trips to western Colorado to hunt Elk/Mule Deer and Pronghorn. It is why I made two hunts to Canada, one to Newfoundland successfully hunting Moose and Woodland Caribou on the first and successfully hunting Musk Ox and Barren Ground Caribou out of Cambridge Bay, and NONE of those animals were shot from a stand or over a bait!

The thing some of you really do not understand, is that the fraternity that hunts in Africa, and especioally those that hunt lion and elephant, REALISTICALLY is not numerous enough in this day and time and to me belittling anyone that is willing to support your ability to keep doing those type hunts is really counterproductive in the overall scheme of things.

I do not want to see any hunter, any where lose the ability to hunt the species they enjoy hunting or lose the ability to hunt those species in the manners they chose as long as it is LEGAL.

But, I will damn sure NOT support any hunter that sets themselves up as the Judge of other hunters, placing themselves as elitists that view themselves as being superior to those hunters that don't subscribe to a arbitrary set of ethics/beliefs that they feel are the mark of a "Real" hunter.

I do not have a chip of anykind on either of my shoulders toward anyone, either though IO have never been myself, I do not want to see those that do enjoy hunting Africa, regardless of the species of their choice lose that ability because when/if that happens it just puts losing the ability to hunt here in America that much cl;oser to being a reality.

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You have not rebutted that deer farming has allowed the CWD wildfire. These mass game farming practices are detrimental to hunters, wild life, and habbitat.

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The difference between deer over bait and lion is not just in the mind of the hunter. I have tried to explain it, and you do not want to grasp the difference.

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And the list of States banning farmed updeer urine as an attractant grows.

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Originally posted by postoak:
Saeed -- everything we hunt is confined in some way, by the ocean if nothing else. Hunting steenbok on a 5000 acre high fenced place should seem the same as hunting one on a tribal concession.

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The differences are so numerous and so massive, that its hard to understand unless you've done it yourself....its just that simple.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

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The differences are so numerous and so massive, that its hard to understand unless you've done it yourself....its just that simple.

Mr. Neilson, the concept you/Fairgame/L.Heym and others are missing, is that as a HUNTER myself, I understand the difference.

I am not the enemy or the problem!

Getting youtrself and your friends to understand that to hunters that have never hunted Lions, non-hunters who have No Real knowledge of hunting techniques and perople that have no opinmiopn one way or another concerning hunting of any kind, and I am purposely NOT including anti-hunters in the mix because their minds are already made up, but the word "BAITING" has only two basic definitions for the average person to deal with.


Baiting

1. to deliberately annoy or taunt (someone).
"the other boys reveled in baiting him about his love of literature"

synonyms: taunt, tease, goad, pick on, torment, persecute, plague, harry, bother, harass, hound; informal-needle

"he was baited at school"

torment (a trapped or restrained animal), especially by allowing dogs to attack it.

But for the MAJORITY of humans when the term/word Baiting is used in connection with hunting or fishing, this is definition that comes to mind.

2. prepare (a hook, trap, net, or fishing area) with bait to entice fish or animals as prey. "she baited a trap with carrots and corn"

I am aware that there is a difference, But, I Am NOT one of the folks wanting to see Lion Hunting Stopped.

Which is more important to you, have other hunters support, even from those that never had an interest in hiunting lions in any manner or alienate hunters because they do not live up to your High Standards of conduct.

See, the concept is, I am NOT attacking anyone hunting lions over bait, I am trying to understand WHY it is so much more ethical/acceptable to hunt lions over a bait and anyone shooting deer over a bait should not even contemplate referring to themselves as a hunter.

Can you give an answer to that?

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

Evidently I am too stupid to understand.

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Originally posted by LHeym500:
Crazyhorse: My response to your inquiry and Aaron Neilson’s are almost identical. I have never hunted lion. I read, listen, and think critically.

You asked for an articulation of a distinction. You have been provide distinctions. Days later you tell us you in fact understood. That does not make any sense.

Oh, non hunters and hunters can understand these distinctions.

As I said in my first response. Do with this knowledge what you will.

It seems you are hell bent on refusing knowledge.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Heym, I understood the difference between baiting for predators versus baiting for deer before I posted my first response.

When did I say in any of my responses that I wanted baiting for Lions stopped? Can you or any of the other participants point that out.

Now, how many of your group have openly stated in this discussion, that shooting deer over bait should be outlawed?

You accused me of supporting High Fence hunting. I do support the method because it is LEGAL. The only time I have hunted inside a high fence has been for Axis does and on drawn hunts on Texas Parks and Wildlife Management/Research areas.

The reason I have never hunted Greater Kudu or Oryx or Eland here in Texas is because it is not the same as hunting Free Ranging Wild specimens in Africa, on several levels.

You and your cronies keep missing the point, you want a form of hunting you do not agree with, even though it is LEGAL in many locations, stopped.

I do not know of one hunter that wants to see other hunters lose the ability to hunt any species that is Legal to hunt or in a manner that is Legal other than you and some of the other responders on this topic.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Just remember such attitudes when the time comes that you folks will be asking for support from the rest of the Hunting Community.

If you don't get it, just remember that just because another hunter does not agree with your beliefs, that does not mean that they want other hunters to lose the ability to hunt the species they enjoy hunting or in the manner they choose.

Evidently I am too stupid to understand WHY, as long as what the hunter is doing is LEGAL in the eyes of the Authorities, that is NOT good enough.

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Forrest Gump even knew that “stupid is as stupid does”
Legal does not equal right or ethical.

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Originally posted by dogcat:

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Just remember such attitudes when the time comes that you folks will be asking for support from the rest of the Hunting Community.

If you don't get it, just remember that just because another hunter does not agree with your beliefs, that does not mean that they want other hunters to lose the ability to hunt the species they enjoy hunting or in the manner they choose.

Evidently I am too stupid to understand WHY, as long as what the hunter is doing is LEGAL in the eyes of the Authorities, that is NOT good enough.

Forrest Gump even knew that “stupid is as stupid does”
Legal does not equal right or ethical.

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Originally posted by larryshores:

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Originally posted by dogcat:

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Just remember such attitudes when the time comes that you folks will be asking for support from the rest of the Hunting Community.

If you don't get it, just remember that just because another hunter does not agree with your beliefs, that does not mean that they want other hunters to lose the ability to hunt the species they enjoy hunting or in the manner they choose.

Evidently I am too stupid to understand WHY, as long as what the hunter is doing is LEGAL in the eyes of the Authorities, that is NOT good enough.

Forrest Gump even knew that “stupid is as stupid does”
Legal does not equal right or ethical.

That croc shot in Trophy was legal. Are we supposed to support that? Not me.

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That croc shot in Trophy was legal. Are we supposed to support that? Not me.