Amazing. Read what you just wrote. You admit that you do not know what the facts are and what has or has not been done then proceed to pass judgment saying it is unfair. I just need to stop opening this thread.

quote:

Amazing. Read what you just wrote. You admit that you do not know what the facts are and what has or has not been done then proceed to pass judgment...

Mike,
Can I refer you (and other posters) back to one of the most ignorant threads (and that is saying something) I have seen posted on this forum....

watch MJines go "full retard"

quote:

I just need to stop opening this thread.

Mike

that might be best for all involved...

Yes I made it clear I don't have all the facts. To me it still looks bad when one guy goes on like nothing happened the other is left fighting with his ins. company to take care of the problems cause by someone else.

Maybe I just look at it different but maybe instead of spending thousands on a hunt that money should have gone to help stu get his life back on track first.

I have no dog in the fight either way but the way I see it was handled I would not use any service that tim pushes to sell hunts.

Your free to think it was handled ok and I can think it was handled wrong. Only way I change my mind is when stu says all is good and everyone did all they could to make it right.

I need to just remember what Winston Churchill said, never engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man, and leave you on ignore with Trax where you both belong. Without using profanity or invective your efforts to be witty fall woefully short and your contributions to the dialogue are always sorely lacking.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
If Tim feels he is getting un-fare representation on the forum he chose to publicize this on, come on and set the record straight. That goes for Stu as well, if he thinks he or anyone else involved in this tragedy is being represented unfairly, set the detractors straight. But that is not what we are hearing, their silence leaves only those on the perimeter who know them as a source of information, and what they are saying is deafening.

This forum is not a court of law. No one owes anyone here ANY type of explanation, and further, if ANY lawyer is involved in ANY capacity, I'm sure the parties involved have been advised to not comment.

Christ, sometimes people here think we're the end-all, be-all masters of the universe!

Good luck with the recovery, Mr. Taylor! I wish you the best!

No one knows what Tim has done for Stu.

Neither does anyone know what others have done for Stu.

Those who think Stu has been short changed by Tim - and admittedly, no matter what is given to Stu, he can never get back to what he had.

But, those who wish, are free to give Stu whatever they wish, he deserves it.

It is a much better idea than taking cheap shots at Tim.

And wile we once again fight our own Australia is stopping lion imports, the US is making it harder to travel with guns, the antis are winning the war and all we do is fight our self!! Most threads turn into SCI pissing matches long-time members calling each other all kinds of names, hell the antis don't have to do anything we will destroy our self's! And all this started just over A update about Stu! fellow

You are absolutely correct.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I suppose most of us take medical insurance when we go on safari.

But, how many actually take insurance against something like this happening?

That is if you do shoot someone, your insurance will take care of it??

In fact, is there any insurance that will cover you for this sort of thing?

I have NFA insurance of 5,000,000 the only costs 9.95/year that is for the following:


Canada’s National Firearms Association's Liability Insurance program offers $5,000,000 in coverage for only $9.95 per year for each NFA member insured!

The policy offered by the National Firearms Association covers an individual or club for $5,000,000.00 in liability coverage.

This is NOT an aggregate amount. It is $5,000,000.00 in Liability Insurance for any claim.

Each individual, or each individual member of an NFA insured club, is covered for:

Legal hunting activities
Legal bowhunting activities
Legal range shooting activities
Legal range archery activities
Legal fishing activities
Legal re-enactment activities
Anywhere in the World!

PLEASE NOTE: The NFALI does not cover activities involving horses or businesses.

So as far as 505 is concerned, he is simply pissed of that Tim Herald has not suffered enough and thinks Mr. Jines is not bright. That is what your contributions to this thread have amounted to.

Good thing Andrew Baldry vouches for you.

I fail to get most of your points especially in light if your absence of facts.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
So as far as 505 is concerned, he is simply pissed of that Tim Herald has not suffered enough and thinks Mr. Jines is not bright. That is what your contributions to this thread have amounted to.

Good thing Andrew Baldry vouches for you.

I fail to get most of your points especially in light if your absence of facts.

Jeff

Jeff,

Everyone of the the threads on this topic end up 10% facts and 90% opinions portrayed as facts.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Jeff,Everyone of the the threads on this topic end up 10% facts and 90% opinions portrayed as facts.CheersJim

Ain't it so.

quote:

So as far as 505 is concerned, he is simply pissed of that Tim Herald has not suffered enough and thinks Mr. Jines is not bright. That is what your contributions to this thread have amounted to.

Good thing Andrew Baldry vouches for you.

I fail to get most of your points especially in light if your absence of facts.

Jeff

And your self admitted reading comprehension issues continue. Perhaps less time scolding and more time trying to understand the issues presented would prove less embarrassing?

quote:

Everyone of the the threads on this topic end up 10% facts and 90% opinions portrayed as facts.

Pray tell Jim, what 10% are facts and what 90% is opinion?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

So as far as 505 is concerned, he is simply pissed of that Tim Herald has not suffered enough and thinks Mr. Jines is not bright. That is what your contributions to this thread have amounted to.

Good thing Andrew Baldry vouches for you.

I fail to get most of your points especially in light if your absence of facts.

Jeff

And your self admitted reading comprehension issues continue. Perhaps less time scolding and more time trying to understand the issues presented would prove less embarrassing?

quote:

Everyone of the the threads on this topic end up 10% facts and 90% opinions portrayed as facts.

Pray tell Jim, what 10% are facts and what 90% is opinion?

Brad,

I'll give you 100% of the facts....I wasn't there and neither were you.

quote:

I'll give you 100% of the facts....I wasn't there and neither were you.

Hey Jeff, do you agree with this statement?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
So did he declare bankrupt or not?

Did that declaration affect others or not?

Saeed,
you and others are quite happy to discuss & disect CBs public knowledge affairs,,
...so let me ask the same type questions you have....

Did TH negligently shoot someone and then willingly declare such in public or not?

Did TH negligent action of shooting someone effect others or not?

>>>SO Why the different attitudes in discussing one celebrity hunter (vs) another?

I'm glad Stu is on the mend.

Cheers, Stu.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
So did he declare bankrupt or not?

Did that declaration affect others or not?

Saeed,
you and others are quite happy to discuss & disect CBs public knowledge affairs,,
...so let me ask the same type questions you have....

Did TH negligently shoot someone and then willingly declare such in public or not?

Did TH negligent action of shooting someone effect others or not?

>>>SO Why the different attitudes in discussing one celebrity hunter (vs) another?

We have been discussing, and it WAS an accident.

If you do not see it for what it was, feel free do something about it, instead of arguing endless here.

Jeff and Saeed,

Just a thought . . . I know sometimes the statements are so asinine I cannot resist responding either . . .

Durn Mike, that's a good one!

Well I am just muddling along with my 5th grade reading comprehension here. What bothers me is that a number of nefarious individuals have been attempting to make a horrific accident more than it was.

Perhaps even implying something requiring a level of punishment?

I take umbrage with this whole line of reasoning as I stated before, it could happen to any of us.

This website is better put to more positive use.

For example are you aware that it was arranged for Stu Taylor to travel to the United States and receive care from one of the finest Orthopedic Surgical Centers is the world at no cost? THAT was arranged from a well known AR member. That is when AR is at it's best. Stu chose for whatever not to accept but the offer was gold.

I am glad he is better and I truly feel both men involved.

Jeff

The flaw in your logic Jeff is that it is premised on the idea that Trax and 505 gibbs actually care about the situation. They do not. Their motivation is solely to incite controversy. There have been multiple different ways established since the accident to actually do something positive for Stu and others like him . . . I welcome being proven wrong but I would be shocked if either have done anything in that regard. No, this is all about just keeping the pot stirred. Otherwise why would they both show up a thread describing Stu's progress and his recovery to drag the discussion back to assigning blame and casting aspersions?

I hope Stu adapts to his new life and his family and friends will accept and support whatever comes his way. Stu is the only one who can say if whatever settlement at hand is agreeable or not it may be good to hear from him but that would totally be up to him, maybe he will address his situation

I have followed this incident to see how it was handled . First of all I believe it was an unfortunate accident accomplished by someone who had self belief he was beyond mistakes, but I will have to say when one chooses to go after or lead someone into an extremely dangerous situation a reasonable man can only accept that things can go wrong...like maybe the bull gets the both of them or the guide shoots the client or vise versa


My initial disappointment with TIM was in his first post on the accident not soon after typing what he alone had done he is asking other people to donate money to cover his liability, and that is sad. In light of the fast exchange of information in this day and age Tim could not have kept a lid on this so it is always wise to release this info before the internet piranhas get smell of it. Many people would have sent money for the sake of a young man well liked individual suddenly gets a life altering injury that not only robs him of what he likes and how he supports his family without Tim asking for it, it was not his place.

Like anyone else who has caused a wrong if he has met his responsibility for the wrong, then... live and let live...but only two people can address this...maybe one or both will step forward or maybe it is no one business but theirs

quote:

Originally posted by raamw:
I hope Stu adapts to his new life and his family and friends will accept and support whatever comes his way. Stu is the only one who can say if whatever settlement at hand is agreeable or not it may be good to hear from him but that would totally be up to him, maybe he will address his situation

I have followed this incident to see how it was handled . First of all I believe it was an unfortunate accident accomplished by someone who had self belief he was beyond mistakes, but I will have to say when one chooses to go after or lead someone into an extremely dangerous situation a reasonable man can only accept that things can go wrong...like maybe the bull gets the both of them or the guide shoots the client or vise versa


My initial disappointment with TIM was in his first post on the accident not soon after typing what he alone had done he is asking other people to donate money to cover his liability, and that is sad. In light of the fast exchange of information in this day and age Tim could not have kept a lid on this so it is always wise to release this info before the internet piranhas get smell of it. Many people would have sent money for the sake of a young well liked individual suddenly gets a life altering injury that not only robs him of what he likes and how he supports his family without Tim asking for it, it was not his place.

Like anyone else who has caused a wrong if he has met his responsibility for the wrong, then... live and let live...but only two people can address this...maybe one or both will step forward or maybe it is no one business but theirs

I don't think Tim ever thought of asking others to cover his own liability to Stu.

What he did was ask our community to help Stu in whatever form we could.

And I think he was right in that.

Many individuals did help Stu - in whatever form they could.

Some have gone as far as offering him free medical treatment in the US.

Tim was working as hard as he could to get Stu as much help as he could get.

It really is not very fair for those sitting on the sidelines and throwing accusations at Tim without knowing all the facts.

As I mentioned earlier, why don't you accusers step up and do something for Stu?

Otherwise you have absolutely no right to pass judgment when you are ignorant of the facts.

This could happen to any of us!

quote:

Well I am just muddling along with my 5th grade reading comprehension here.

quote:

Apparently I am not capable of accurately reading your posts. At least not hours apart.

Jeff

I was simply agreeing with what you said (and later proved) after you admittedly lunged at the opportunity to reprimand another poster for something he was not even saying.

What bothers me is that a number of nefarious individuals have been attempting to make a horrific accident more than it was. Perhaps even implying something requiring a level of punishment? I take umbrage with this whole line of reasoning as I stated before, it could happen to any of us.

Since this is stemming from your reprimand of me previously, Can I assume that I am one of these "nefarious individuals"? All I see here is your blatant dishonesty that I have referred to this as something other than a negligent accident. To make it worse, you go further in indulging yourself to speculate that some sort of criminal "punishment" is being suggested?

This website is better put to more positive use.For example are you aware that it was arranged for Stu Taylor to travel to the United States and receive care from one of the finest Orthopedic Surgical Centers is the world at no cost? THAT was arranged from a well known AR member. That is when AR is at it's best.

No doubt, many members of this forum and other organizations have done much to help Stu (and others). However, that has nothing to do with the issues I have presented and you have taken issue with. How this horrible accident was handled in the moments after it occurred was worrisome to many. And, many on this site saw it as conspicuous all those who refused to see what was obviously staring everyone in the face, why? To cozy up to a tv personality? To not be put in a position where you are responsible for what you do while undertaking a dangerous hobby? What is your angle here Jeff? What are you hiding from?

Stu chose for whatever not to accept but the offer was gold.

So, now that we have covered the above, I have a question for you. It would appear that you agree with Jim that my posts on this subject have been "10% fact and 90% opinion"....

quote:

quote:

Jeff,Everyone of the the threads on this topic end up 10% facts and 90% opinions portrayed as facts.CheersJim

Ain't it so.

And Jim apparently has conceded that I covered 100% of the facts 3 days ago....

quote:

originally posted by 505 gibbs:
1) The moments leading up to and including the incident, what happened here is only known to those present. To speculate about what happened or what would have happened if you were there is of no value.

What have you added to the substance of this thread? What have you offered other than rashness and rush to judgement (towards GOB)? Misrepresentation and speculation from that misrepresentation of my and others posts? A willful blindness that someone my be making a valid point that has nothing to do with the issues (or non-issues) that you are using to detract? Oh, and don't forget your disaccreditation of another mans character based on the same misrepresentation and speculation described above (fairgame). Well done Jeff.
Oh, I almost forgot, my statements about MJines mental capacity, admittedly speculation. However, based on his reliance on demotivational posters that don't even make sense (don't get me wrong, there are some good ones out there), I am sticking with my original assessment.
"reverse Psychology" "never wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty but the pig likes it"? What does that mean? Was that actually something you (mjines) found or did you just cut and paste in a saying at the bottom you have used in the past? Just wondering.

I should have never assumed that you were well read enough to have heard that quote. My mistake.

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." ~ George Bernard Shaw

Saeed,
When I was brought up I was taught you cover your responsibility and when you have used up your resources and only then asking for help is the only way a respectable honorable individual should reach out. When you go to the public within hours or days he would have no way of knowing what the responsibility would eventually cost. He himself attempted to minimize the injury by saying he would be OK and up and at em shortly. This can only lead one to believe he was attempting to protect his resources...period

I have had a few associates who where shot in the line of duty and both ended up with disabilities as a result and I can say money was never a concern until a determination was made as to whether or not life would be altered .

Here is why:

http://scottbarrykaufman.com/w...want-to-have-fun.pdf

and

http://www.dailytech.com/Study...sts/article36091.htm


So again:

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Well I am just muddling along with my 5th grade reading comprehension here.

quote:

Apparently I am not capable of accurately reading your posts. At least not hours apart.

Jeff

I was simply agreeing with what you said (and later proved) after you admittedly lunged at the opportunity to reprimand another poster for something he was not even saying.

What bothers me is that a number of nefarious individuals have been attempting to make a horrific accident more than it was. Perhaps even implying something requiring a level of punishment? I take umbrage with this whole line of reasoning as I stated before, it could happen to any of us.

Since this is stemming from your reprimand of me previously, Can I assume that I am one of these "nefarious individuals"? All I see here is your blatant dishonesty that I have referred to this as something other than a negligent accident. To make it worse, you go further in indulging yourself to speculate that some sort of criminal "punishment" is being suggested?

This website is better put to more positive use.For example are you aware that it was arranged for Stu Taylor to travel to the United States and receive care from one of the finest Orthopedic Surgical Centers is the world at no cost? THAT was arranged from a well known AR member. That is when AR is at it's best.

No doubt, many members of this forum and other organizations have done much to help Stu (and others). However, that has nothing to do with the issues I have presented and you have taken issue with. How this horrible accident was handled in the moments after it occurred was worrisome to many. And, many on this site saw it as conspicuous all those who refused to see what was obviously staring everyone in the face, why? To cozy up to a tv personality? To not be put in a position where you are responsible for what you do while undertaking a dangerous hobby? What is your angle here Jeff? What are you hiding from?

Stu chose for whatever not to accept but the offer was gold.

So, now that we have covered the above, I have a question for you. It would appear that you agree with Jim that my posts on this subject have been "10% fact and 90% opinion"....

quote:

quote:

Jeff,Everyone of the the threads on this topic end up 10% facts and 90% opinions portrayed as facts.CheersJim

Ain't it so.

And Jim apparently has conceded that I covered 100% of the facts 3 days ago....

quote:

originally posted by 505 gibbs:
1) The moments leading up to and including the incident, what happened here is only known to those present. To speculate about what happened or what would have happened if you were there is of no value.

What have you added to the substance of this thread? What have you offered other than rashness and rush to judgement (towards GOB)? Misrepresentation and speculation from that misrepresentation of my and others posts? A willful blindness that someone my be making a valid point that has nothing to do with the issues (or non-issues) that you are using to detract? Oh, and don't forget your disaccreditation of another mans character based on the same misrepresentation and speculation described above (fairgame). Well done Jeff.
Oh, I almost forgot, my statements about MJines mental capacity, admittedly speculation. However, based on his reliance on demotivational posters that don't even make sense (don't get me wrong, there are some good ones out there), I am sticking with my original assessment.
"reverse Psychology" "never wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty but the pig likes it"? What does that mean? Was that actually something you (mjines) found or did you just cut and paste in a saying at the bottom you have used in the past? Just wondering.

Silly Man 505, Why do you think I am merely referencing you?

Reread the thread. The words "stupid" "courts", "culpability", were used. Other absurdities like "hero worship" and "negligence" were tossed about.

I am obviously very fond of Andrew Baldry.

You insult a friend of mine. Mike Jines.

What am I hiding from? Not a damn thing.

What have I brought to this thread? Perhaps nothing as my point was to inject some humanity into to blind arrogance that was flying around. And remind everyone that a devastating accident could happen to any of us no matter how safe we try to be.

Again I feel for both involved.

Feel free to twist this response up as well.

Jeff

quote:

I should have never assumed that you were well read enough to have heard that quote. My mistake."I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." ~ George Bernard ShawMike

Ya bud, I got it, what does "wrestling with a pig" have to do with "reverse psychology"?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

What gun did you carry and what gun are you carrying now ?

I carried traditional bolt actions, loaded chamber, on "safety", spent most of my day with it pointed with at least 1 in my party. Last trip carried an 1895 with loaded chamber but hammer down (not "cocked"), felt much safer, when it was time to shoot, pull the hammer and shoot. It would not appear to me that "Africa carry" was directly responsible for the TH/ST incident, but what happens when you become so comfortable pointing your loaded muzzle at another's back? I would contend that your attention to full time gun safety suffers.

I only carry a bolt without a round in the chamber. I will chamber a round when I am on the sticks or about to shoot. If I miss anything because of the noise or time to chamber a round I can live with that. Just saves money on trophy and taxidermy anyway.

The blaser r-8 with the remove able trigger is an excellent innovation.

Why doubles don't much excite me - walking around with 2 in the chamber.

I also like to see the gun handling of my ph - I am not a big fan of being swept or sweeping anyone with any firearm especially a big bore.

Mike

Mike,

Some of us do not walk around with our doubles loaded. I might hold a couple of cartridges in hand and only load if I feel that it is warranted.

You will see.

Good Andrew cause I tip much better when you don't sling a loaded double rifle over your shoulder african style and once in a while sweep me or your trackers with it

THe blaser r-8 with a remove able trigger seems more more appealing to me.

Mike

Curious, how do you feel about tipping if you are squashed because you and your PH had an unexpected encounter with dangerous game in thick brush and both of you were hunting with unloaded rifles?

Mike I am not taking anyone into thick brush with my double unloaded. My quote states that I will only load if I feel that it is warranted. This includes but is not limited to long grass, river edges and poking around Lion kills.

It is a bit of a hassle unloading and loading a double during a walk but it makes for good practice.

quote:

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." ~ George Bernard Shaw

For a lighter moment:

I'm well read enough to bet you can't source it, and by that I mean an original GBS work, letter, or message, not the often wrong quote collections.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

...and it WAS an accident.

'accidents' happen in many fields by people operating industrial equipment,vehicles,aircraft,vessels,firearms,medical procedures,etc

Then one determines if it was:

A./ through no fault or misconduct of their own,

OR,

B./ IF it was an unfortunate event caused especially due to ones carelessness, negligence & ignorance.


>_Now,
I don't how you choose to view it, but I view it that person is entirely responsible for the safe handling
of their carried firearm in what ever environment-circumstance they have consciously chosen to take or operate it in.

Imagine IF the airlines only hired 'fair weather' pilots, -how many more serious incidences their would be due to air crews
who could not safely handle variations in meteorlogical conditions?....Would you accept the airlines just calling it an accident?

Id say you like many others, would expect the air crew to know how to proficiently handle the aircraft in varied conditions.
and any incident that seriously injured you or a loved-one due primarily to negligence or carelessness of the aircrew,
would not be so easily dismissed by the victims or their families.

I find it hard to believe you would nOT be outraged over such, considering you blew your royal stack.. .. , over something
as simple & insignificant as the Hilton hotel that would not serve you lunch a 1/2hr outside the restaurants opening time....
You have condemned and officially dumped the Conrad-Hilton -for ever now- based on that meaningless hamburger incident, correct?

Q./ What would you do if a Hilton Hotel armed security guard like at one their locations in Jeddah Saudi Arabia,,
had negligently shot you?

quote:

I'm well read enough to bet you can't source it, and by that I mean an original GBS work, letter, or message, not the often wrong quote collections.

African carry looks really cool. Take pictures. Nice if you are at the head of the stick, but you're not, generally.

I carry my rifle two ways, two deep in the stick for the most part. African carry is unsafe. Slung on my shoulder if I don't think I'll need it immediately.

More usually, I carry it in the crook of my left arm. Muzzle up, easily accessible. naet. ow if tru

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
African carry looks really cool. Take pictures. Nice if you are at the head of the stick, but you're not, generally.

I carry my rifle two ways, two deep in the stick for the most part. African carry is unsafe. Slung on my shoulder if I don't think I'll need it immediately.

More usually, I carry it in the crook of my left arm. Muzzle up, easily accessible. naet. ow if tru

What's your point? The incident being discussed here has NOTHING to do with the African carry!

This incident occurred when a buffalo surprised the hunting party in close quarters by charging through the group. Stu, the PH, fired at the buff and as Tim attempted to fire at the buff as well while walking backwards, he tripped and his shot hit Stu. None of us outside the hunting party were there but this is the way Tim described the event and this description has not been denied or contested by Stu or his father who came here to AR on Stu's behalf.

Nothing to do with the African carry at all.

quote:

What's your point? The incident being discussed here has NOTHING to do with the African carry! This incident occurred when a buffalo surprised the hunting party in close quarters by charging through the group. Stu, the PH, fired at the buff and as Tim attempted to fire at the buff as well while walking backwards, he tripped and his shot hit Stu. None of us outside the hunting party were there but this is the way Tim described the event and this description has not been denied or contested by Stu or his father who came here to AR on Stu's behalf.Nothing to do with the African carry at all.

Good Lord, this place has gone nuts.

To all posters:
Effective immediately, there will be no more digression of posts. All posts/opinions must be directly related to the OP's original post. To enforce this, all posts must be run through Mike Jines, Jeff Bundookie and Todd Williams via PM for approval.
note: in case any of the above are absent, Brett AKSCI can be contacted for temporary approval.

-The Management.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
African carry looks really cool. Take pictures. Nice if you are at the head of the stick, but you're not, generally.

I carry my rifle two ways, two deep in the stick for the most part. African carry is unsafe. Slung on my shoulder if I don't think I'll need it immediately.

More usually, I carry it in the crook of my left arm. Muzzle up, easily accessible. naet. ow if tru

Voice of experience.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
African carry looks really cool. Take pictures. Nice if you are at the head of the stick, but you're not, generally.

I carry my rifle two ways, two deep in the stick for the most part. African carry is unsafe. Slung on my shoulder if I don't think I'll need it immediately.

More usually, I carry it in the crook of my left arm. Muzzle up, easily accessible. naet. ow if tru

Voice of experience.

So listening to the voice of experience, in your experience do most PH's not use African carry? The trackers are generally always in front of them.

I have always liked the information part of being on AR. This thread is a perfect example of why I wish I could find some of the information elsewhere. Common courtesy and civility is lost on many of these threads and there is more interest in "one upping" the previous poster than making a relevant point. Do any of you really think this is serving any relevant purpose to the hunting community at large? Focus some effort on something useful and if you can't figure out something to do with your time other than taking potshots at each other then let me suggest you take a kid or a wounded vet hunting, fishing or shooting.

Don