quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:

quote:

But Cecil, ask any of your 6'2" buddies that have hunted with you about looking down your barrel!

That's what the SOB gets for setting his beer on my head!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

One of the silliest tricks I have seen is dropping the firing pin on a live round and leaving it in the chamber.

The theory is all one have to do is pull the bolt up and down and one is ready for action.

How that is supposed to be easier or quicker than pushing the safety off is beyond me!

Saeed,
Is it really silly , or just that you may have a narrow mind?
consider:
Maybe its not all about speed- but likely the vastly more important issue of SAFETY.

one can much more easily have a safety accidentally bumpOff , than accidentally work a bolt Handle UP & DOWN
(to then inadvertently create a mechnically live trigger status).

I stopped using 'installed safeties' well over 30yrs ago, and have relied on the much more simplified less potential fumbling
-bolt handle-UP method as the safety lever-, ever since.
the BH becomes both the safety lever and action cycle lever all in one, what could be simpler?

When the BH is in the full up position, one knows for sure it won't unintentionally/negligently discharge.
and seriously, IF one considers it too hard or too slow a process, to close the bolt as required for the shot,
then working the action fully for any rapid follow up shots ,must be a real frickn uphill challenge to them...

A firing pin on live primer is blatantly silly and dangerously reckless. I have seen way too many folks drop their firearm, or have their rifle bounce out of gun racks and off vehicles, or lean them up against a tree only for it to fall. All it takes is a little inertia to cause a firing pin strike.

If I saw someone doing that, I would either beat them until common sense was restored or pack their bags and send them home.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:

quote:

I can't tell you how many times I've found myself looking down the muzzle of another hunter's rifle while it was on a sling over his shoulder.

Being only 5'6" I don't have that problem.
Being short also comes in handy for slow dancing with tall women!

But Cecil, ask any of your 6'2" buddies that have hunted with you about looking down your barrel!

I've got a shorter friend I elk hunt with just about every year. I swear I'm always looking down his muzzle. Doesn't matter if we are going up or down. If I'm above him on the slope, climbing or descending, I get a real good view of his muzzle from time to time with it slung over his shoulder.

The fact is putting a rifle over your shoulder on a sling DOES NOT eliminate sweeping of the others in your hunting party. The African Carry is NOT more prone to sweeping others in and of itself. Both methods require one to remain vigilant as to where their muzzle is pointing at all times. Personally, I find that with the African Carry, I'm more tuned into where the muzzle is pointing. On the shoulder with a sling and it's too easily forgotten about for moments at a time. Reason being that the African Carry is an active carry method while a sling is passive.

Todd,

That depends-I shoot right handed, soI carry my rifles slung on left shoulder--MUZZLE DOWN. I have my hand on it and total control, and if it sweeps anything its toes. Besides, with practice its about the fastest carry position to to get to ready other than caring at the ready that there is.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Stu's incident wasn't due to the carry method. I believe Tim tripped as he retreated. Let's just all thank God Stu is better and back hunting.

I love AR, but we heard about his well being from another website. I don't really go there, but it may say something about the infighting here.

Best wishes to Stu and his recovery.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
A firing pin on live primer is blatantly silly and dangerously reckless. I have seen way too many folks drop their firearm,
or have their rifle bounce out of gun racks and off vehicles, or lean them up against a tree only for it to fall.
All it takes is a little inertia to cause a firing pin strike.

One thing I don't do is set myself up for more potential trouble by resting/balancing rifles up against posts or trees
(with a round in the chamber or not)
and seriously...driving around with firearms in the rack that one knows have loaded chambers?????
I wouldn't hunt with people that operate like that.

One cannot fix stupid. Shooting someone is a result of being stupid and unsafe gun handling.

It is the responsibility of everyone with a rifle to be aware of where their muzzles are pointed 100% of the time.

Those of you with the money and doubt if a dropped or even bumped rifle or shotgun may cause the sear to let the striker fall or a striker resting against a primer with a dropped rifle and the gun will not go off is rather foolish. It does happen, and will happen. The reason I suggest those with the money to spare preform the test is that there is always the possibility of a broken stock when conducting this test.

There is always the wear of the Sears to think of in shotguns and double rifles, climate, weather. Then with bolt rifles there is the climate, length of the striker (firing pin) and chamber depth that are factors to consider.

The ATF performs "drop tests" on new guns imported into the USA by major companies prior to allowing their importation but they are under very controlled circumstances and none are done with a striker resting against a primer. The only way a gun is ever ever safe is for it to be unloaded or pointed in a safe direction at ALL times.

The BS of running about wringing one's hands wailing it was an accident that you shot someone is absolute nonsense. That does not patch the victim up, pay the medical bills or God forbid bring him back to life. It is your obligation to maintain proper control of your weapon at all times.

I have seen my DI beat a recruit Un-mercifully for passing a loaded rifle across the back of a fellow recruit. That lad stood tall, accepted the punishment and eventually became a firearms instructor.

It is always better safe than sorry. We all participate in a wonderful sport. We must look after each other and practice safety in all respects especially gun handeling.

I believe that one should use the carry which works best for you, your physiological conditions and the type rifle you are carrying. However no matter the "type carry" always be aware where your muzzles are pointed and you will not cause concern to anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by GOB:
One cannot fix stupid. Shooting someone is a result of being stupid and unsafe gun handling.

It is the responsibility of everyone with a rifle to be aware of where their muzzles are pointed 100% of the time.

Those of you with the money and doubt if a dropped or even bumped rifle or shotgun may cause the sear to let the striker fall or a striker resting against a primer with a dropped rifle and the gun will not go off is rather foolish. It does happen, and will happen. The reason I suggest those with the money to spare preform the test is that there is always the possibility of a broken stock when conducting this test.

There is always the wear of the Sears to think of in shotguns and double rifles, climate, weather. Then with bolt rifles there is the climate, length of the striker (firing pin) and chamber depth that are factors to consider.

The ATF performs "drop tests" on new guns imported into the USA by major companies prior to allowing their importation but they are under very controlled circumstances and none are done with a striker resting against a primer. The only way a gun is ever ever safe is for it to be unloaded or pointed in a safe direction at ALL times.

The BS of running about wringing one's hands wailing it was an accident that you shot someone is absolute nonsense. That does not patch the victim up, pay the medical bills or God forbid bring him back to life. It is your obligation to maintain proper control of your weapon at all times.

I have seen my DI beat a recruit Un-mercifully for passing a loaded rifle across the back of a fellow recruit. That lad stood tall, accepted the punishment and eventually became a firearms instructor.

It is always better safe than sorry. We all participate in a wonderful sport. We must look after each other and practice safety in all respects especially gun handeling.

I believe that one should use the carry which works best for you, your physiological conditions and the type rifle you are carrying. However no matter the "type carry" always be aware where your muzzles are pointed and you will not cause concern to anyone.

Pretty arrogant post. I sure hope nothing untoward ever happens to you. If it wasn't an accident; was it on purpose?

Jeff

Very sorry if I have upset you Sir, that was never my intention. Sadly I have seen too many otherwise fine people damaged forever by a stupid action. That perhaps has clouded my judgement by not wishing to see anyone hurt foolishly or otherwise. You have my profound apology for upsetting you.

This "accident" or "incident" as with so many others took place because the muzzles of the gun were pointed in an unsafe place, the safety was off, the gun malfunctioned whatever the reason the result is that two very fine people are hurt as a result of in my opinion a stupid moment. The bottom line is that we all need to work together and hopefully prevent another accident. We can discuss every situation and try to sort out ways to make things better. I do however fail to understand how anyone or anything is helped by calling people names because their opinion may differ from yours. I feel it is stupid to for any reason shoot anyone in a non criminal act. If you feel it is not, fine I do not agree but I shall not call you names. Again I am very sorry Sir if you are offended but I still believe shooting another person is in some way stupid and I Sir like you am entitled to my opinion and do respect yours.

It is up to the Courts to decide culpability and who did what and why. It still remains a very sad trauma to a lot of good people. There are many people hurt by this or any similar incident other tha the shooter and the victim.

It does seem that most of us have had the pass by of the muzzles more than one time. It is not a fun thing and it only takes a bump and at times a very slight bump to cause a discharge. Everyone especially a PH should have muzzle awareness at all times.

I fell one time on the final approach to an elephant, stepping into a deep covered elephant track. Fortunately I had the muzzles of the rifle pointing in a safe direction. There was no discharge but the bloody stock snapped in two at the wrist on a very nice double rifle. Which is re-stocked and shall be back in May for a go at another elephant.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
A firing pin on live primer is blatantly silly and dangerously reckless. I have seen way too many folks drop their firearm,
or have their rifle bounce out of gun racks and off vehicles, or lean them up against a tree only for it to fall.
All it takes is a little inertia to cause a firing pin strike.

One thing I don't do is set myself up for more potential trouble by resting/balancing rifles up against posts or trees
(with a round in the chamber or not)
and seriously...driving around with firearms in the rack that one knows have loaded chambers?????
I wouldn't hunt with people that operate like that.

I guess you have never hunted in Africa then because many do have loaded rifles in rifle racks. I certainly don't but many do. It is amazingly common among the brandy and coke crowd in RSA.

For culling purposes it is pretty much necessary to carry loaded firearms in racks. So the live round and slack striker is a very dangerous game of roulette.

quote:

The BS of running about wringing one's hands wailing it was an accident that you shot someone is absolute nonsense. That does not patch the victim up, pay the medical bills or God forbid bring him back to life. It is your obligation to maintain proper control of your weapon at all times.I have seen my DI beat a recruit Un-mercifully for passing a loaded rifle across the back of a fellow recruit. That lad stood tall, accepted the punishment and eventually became a firearms instructor. It is always better safe than sorry. We all participate in a wonderful sport. We must look after each other and practice safety in all respects especially gun handeling.

GOB, great post, the obvious exception to this "responsibility" is if you have a tv show or write hunting columns.

quote:

Very sorry if I have upset you Sir, that was never my intention. Sadly I have seen too many otherwise fine people damaged forever by a stupid action. That perhaps has clouded my judgement by not wishing to see anyone hurt foolishly or otherwise. You have my profound apology for upsetting you.

This "accident" or "incident" as with so many others took place because the muzzles of the gun were pointed in an unsafe place, the safety was off, the gun malfunctioned whatever the reason the result is that two very fine people are hurt as a result of in my opinion a stupid moment. The bottom line is that we all need to work together and hopefully prevent another accident. We can discuss every situation and try to sort out ways to make things better. I do however fail to understand how anyone or anything is helped by calling people names because their opinion may differ from yours. I feel it is stupid to for any reason shoot anyone in a non criminal act. If you feel it is not, fine I do not agree but I shall not call you names. Again I am very sorry Sir if you are offended but I still believe shooting another person is in some way stupid and I Sir like you am entitled to my opinion and do respect yours.

It seems ridiculous that you feel the necessity to apologize, everything you said was spot on. Some here rush to defend their "heroes" in some vain hope they will be recognized some day. Regardless, well said and hope to see more posts from you in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Some here rush to defend their "heroes" in some vain hope they will be recognized some day.

If Joyce and I visit you in "Hooton" (your spelling ) will that make us recognized?

Cheers
Jim

Numbnuts Gibbs
Nobody is shying from responsibility here
You are like some petulant little child, kicking and screaming
Get a life Dude

quote:

If it wasn't an accident; was it on purpose?

No, it was the result of sheer negligence - a finger on the trigger while back-pedalling is the recipe for disaster unless you have eyes on the cheeks of your ass.

The way I know it is to flick the safety off as you raise your weapon with the intent to fire and not otherwise.

Some people, in this case a celebrity, are pardonable, beyond reproach or criticism as their monumental mistake is regarded or qualifies as an accident, "shit happens", "anything can go wrong when hunting DG" etc. - anyone else without a similar status would have been dismembered then crucified, piece by piece.

quote:

If Joyce and I visit you in "Hooton" (your spelling ) will that make us recognized?

to some...

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

The BS of running about wringing one's hands wailing it was an accident that you shot someone is absolute nonsense. That does not patch the victim up, pay the medical bills or God forbid bring him back to life. It is your obligation to maintain proper control of your weapon at all times.I have seen my DI beat a recruit Un-mercifully for passing a loaded rifle across the back of a fellow recruit. That lad stood tall, accepted the punishment and eventually became a firearms instructor. It is always better safe than sorry. We all participate in a wonderful sport. We must look after each other and practice safety in all respects especially gun handeling.

GOB, great post, the obvious exception to this "responsibility" is if you have a tv show or write hunting columns.

quote:

Very sorry if I have upset you Sir, that was never my intention. Sadly I have seen too many otherwise fine people damaged forever by a stupid action. That perhaps has clouded my judgement by not wishing to see anyone hurt foolishly or otherwise. You have my profound apology for upsetting you.

This "accident" or "incident" as with so many others took place because the muzzles of the gun were pointed in an unsafe place, the safety was off, the gun malfunctioned whatever the reason the result is that two very fine people are hurt as a result of in my opinion a stupid moment. The bottom line is that we all need to work together and hopefully prevent another accident. We can discuss every situation and try to sort out ways to make things better. I do however fail to understand how anyone or anything is helped by calling people names because their opinion may differ from yours. I feel it is stupid to for any reason shoot anyone in a non criminal act. If you feel it is not, fine I do not agree but I shall not call you names. Again I am very sorry Sir if you are offended but I still believe shooting another person is in some way stupid and I Sir like you am entitled to my opinion and do respect yours.

It seems ridiculous that you feel the necessity to apologize, everything you said was spot on. Some here rush to defend their "heroes" in some vain hope they will be recognized some day. Regardless, well said and hope to see more posts from you in the future.

Who's hero? What BS. Negligence led to an accident. I don't get the wringing hands comment and I am defending no persons poor gun handling. Implying it was other than an accident lends itself to....I do agree with many of your other observations. They underscore the need for all of us to be ever mindful of muzzle direction and gun handling. Your own unfortunate incident where you broke your wrist on approach to elephant also underscores the point that there but for the grace of God could go any of us.

Jeff

Celebrity? Heroes? Getting a pass? To the contrary, the only reason this is still even being discussed is because it involved Tim. There have been a number of other accidental shootings, some self inflicted like the fellow that put his double on his foot and blew off his toe, those become old news quick and no one seems to be "dismembered then crucified, piece by piece".

I sort of wonder about someone that actually believes an outdoor television personality can even be a celebrity or hero. Makes you curious who their heroes are given that they apparently do not believe a very high bar must be chinned to constitute a hero.

quote:

Celebrity? Heroes? Getting a pass? To the contrary, the only reason this is still even being discussed is because it involved Tim. There have been a number of other accidental shootings, some self inflicted like the fellow that put his double on his foot and blew off his toe, those become old news quick and no one seems to be "dismembered then crucified, piece by piece".

Umm, actually Mike, the reason this is still being discussed is because 7mmNut posted a thread updating on Stu Taylor's condition and then some of the idolizers on this forum began to act like it happened in a vacuum. So, unfortunately for you and the rest of the "starstruck", it's not all about Tim Herald.

quote:

I sort of wonder about someone that actually believes an outdoor television personality can even be a celebrity or hero. Makes you curious who their heroes are given that they apparently do not believe a very high bar must be chinned to constitute a hero.

I will refer you to your previous statement for some introspection and possible clarification on this query. Your not the sharpest knife in the drawer, eh?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Celebrity? Heroes? Getting a pass? To the contrary, the only reason this is still even being discussed is because it involved Tim. There have been a number of other accidental shootings, some self inflicted like the fellow that put his double on his foot and blew off his toe, those become old news quick and no one seems to be "dismembered then crucified, piece by piece".

Umm, actually Mike, the reason this is still being discussed is because 7mmNut posted a thread updating on Stu Taylor's condition and then some of the idolizers on this forum began to act like it happened in a vacuum. So, unfortunately for you and the rest of the "starstruck", it's not all about Tim Herald.

quote:

I sort of wonder about someone that actually believes an outdoor television personality can even be a celebrity or hero. Makes you curious who their heroes are given that they apparently do not believe a very high bar must be chinned to constitute a hero.

I will refer you to your previous statement for some introspection and possible clarification on this query. Your not the sharpest knife in the drawer, eh?

Congratulations! You made a post with no swearing, racial epitaphs or bodily function metaphors. And to think some believe you are too Bubba'ed to be trained. The thread started about Stu but it did not take long for your alter ego Trax to derail it and for you crawl out from under your rock and chime in too.

I may not have hunted big game in Africa but I have hunted deer and other game a lot - on foot. Walked for hours and hours, days on end in wild, steep, rugged, thick, wet country.

Anyone who says that it is total negligence to (accidentally) lose control of a loaded gun has obviously not hunted in rough wild country.

It is possible to slip, trip, etc. in the bush just while walking. So it must be a lot easier to lose control when moving backwards when faced with DG or even just a tight spot in the bush. Add to it a 10 lbs rifle instead of my usual little Kimber.

The instant you lose balance even slightly, it is possible to let go of one hand on the gun. Now the balance keeps shifting even more. Control on the thumb over the safety can change, the barrel could move up or down, depending on change in body position etc.

I have dropped my rifle in the bush a few times when slipping and falling. Fortunately no AD. Also - we usually hunt alone here in NZ - clear understanding among those in camp (2 or 3 of us usually) about who goes into which valley, catchment, ridge etc.

Hero worship? That is seriously funny. I wouldn't know Tim Herald if he knocked on my door. I did take umbrage with GOB's haughty commentary which perhaps was unfair. But alas GOB admitted to shattering his wrist while stepping in a hole while approaching elephant. Safety off?

Herald's tale is a cautionary tale for all of us. Feel free to to consult Mr. Jines if you struggle with any of my verbage. His blade is in fact honed quite well.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
I wouldn't know Tim Herald if he knocked on my door.
Jeff

I would as would Joyce. Every time he comes to Alaska he contacts us ahead of time to get together for drinks and dinner.

He's a nice guy and neither he, Joyce or I could care less he has a TV show. Big whoop!! No headache I would want.

I'm not going to try and dissect the incident that everyone else who was not there has an opinion on.

If you are a gun owner and think you may never have an AD then my suggestion is sell your guns now. Anybody can have one. Joyce has one with a .22 while sitting in Johnny du Plooy's truck. It was Johnny's CZ452 and you you may know they have "backwards" safety. She made it hot "putting the safety on" and something loose in the truck got to the trigger guard. No one was hurt but someone could have. AD's happen!!

I would hunt with, and do, anytime with Joyce. As Andrew rated her gun handling in Zambia as "exemplary" and trust me the guy hates a round in the chamber but conceded to our wishes. He stopped paying attention to our guns about day two.

Your mileage may vary but this is my .02

Cheers
Jim

Sir,

Sorry, perhaps I did not make it clear it was the wrist of my rifle stock which was broken and resulted in having another stock made.

However on a brighter note I did not have my finger on the trigger and yes the safety was indeed engaged. Plus the muzzles were pointed in a safe direction had there been a malfunction.

In most situations a weapon will not discharge on a fall unless you finger is on the trigger. Gun safety is always paramount.

Apparently I am not capable of accurately reading your posts. At least not hours apart.

Jeff

One can look at this from many angles.

But, the fact is accidents do happen.

And they do happen because someone made a mistake.

These two are inseparable.

What none of us know is all the facts.

None of us was there - and even if we were, I bet each might have a different saying about it.

How many of us here have had what one might call a close call with dangerous game while on safari??

And I mean a REAL to goodness dangerous situation - not the Mark Sullivan type where one knows exactly where the animal is, and well prepared in advance of what to do.

In those situations, one acts by instinct - I know, what one PLANS to do sometimes does not pan out exactly.

In the few situations where we have been onto a wounded animals - lion, buffalo etc - where one has no idea where exactly that animal is due to some obstructions - my own plan is to have the rifle at ready, thump on safety, finger off the trigger, and LOOK!.

As soon as the animal is sighted, the rifle comes up to the shoulder, at the same time the safety is taken off, and the trigger is pulled as soon as the rifle hits the shoulder.

The above is what gets PLANNED in my mind.

Does it happen differently in reality?

Sure it does.

I have had occasions where I have fallen on top of my PH.

I have had occasions where my PH has fallen on top of me.

All this happened while we were retreating from an animal.


What had happened to Stu WAS an accident.

Was it avoidable?

In hind sight, all accidents are avoidable.

But, we cannot wind the clock back and eliminate the mistakes that had caused that accident.

Hopefully one learns from the mistakes of others.

Going on safari does open one to meeting with certain accidents that are avoidable living in civilization.

But, living in civilization has its own list of unsavoury things that can happen to one.

Well said Saeed. Move on and we all try to be better.

No doubt it was an accident BUT it's a darn shame how Stu has been left

Not interested in hijacking the thread as I already commented on the thread topic (page 1 of thread), but:

“And I mean a REAL to goodness dangerous situation - not the Mark Sullivan type where one knows exactly where the animal is, and well prepared in advance of what to do.”

Having been there and done that with Mark many times I can attest that the above is an untrue statement.

Back to Stu Taylor’s recovery.


Shawn

quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:
Not interested in hijacking the thread as I already commented on the thread topic (page 1 of thread), but:

“And I mean a REAL to goodness dangerous situation - not the Mark Sullivan type where one knows exactly where the animal is, and well prepared in advance of what to do.”

Having been there and done that with Mark many times I can attest that the above is an untrue statement.

Back to Stu Taylor’s recovery.


Shawn

Shawn,

Makes no difference what you have done with Mark.

Walking up to a buffalo lying on the ground in front of you in plain sight is NOT dangerous!

Have we ever seen Mark follow a buffalo in thick bush??

If he has, he hasn't sold many videos of it.

I wonder why??

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
One can look at this from many angles.

But, the fact is accidents do happen.

And they do happen because someone made a mistake.

These two are inseparable.

What none of us know is all the facts.

None of us was there - and even if we were, I bet each might have a different saying about it.

Quite right. Accidents by their very definition can happen to anyone no matter how good, clever, rich, famous or experienced they might be.

Two good examples might be the space shuttles Challenger and Columbia.

Before we criticise too much, perhaps we should consider the words: 'There but for the grace of God, go I'

Stu,

This thread started as an update on your status. Although we've never met, I would hunt with you and share a campfire.

It's great to hear you're improving. Keep kicking arse.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
One can look at this from many angles.

But, the fact is accidents do happen.

And they do happen because someone made a mistake.

These two are inseparable.

What none of us know is all the facts.

None of us was there - and even if we were, I bet each might have a different saying about it.

How many of us here have had what one might call a close call with dangerous game while on safari??

And I mean a REAL to goodness dangerous situation - not the Mark Sullivan type where one knows exactly where the animal is, and well prepared in advance of what to do.

In those situations, one acts by instinct - I know, what one PLANS to do sometimes does not pan out exactly.

In the few situations where we have been onto a wounded animals - lion, buffalo etc - where one has no idea where exactly that animal is due to some obstructions - my own plan is to have the rifle at ready, thump on safety, finger off the trigger, and LOOK!.

As soon as the animal is sighted, the rifle comes up to the shoulder, at the same time the safety is taken off, and the trigger is pulled as soon as the rifle hits the shoulder.

The above is what gets PLANNED in my mind.

Does it happen differently in reality?

Sure it does.

I have had occasions where I have fallen on top of my PH.

I have had occasions where my PH has fallen on top of me.

All this happened while we were retreating from an animal.


What had happened to Stu WAS an accident.

Was it avoidable?

In hind sight, all accidents are avoidable.

But, we cannot wind the clock back and eliminate the mistakes that had caused that accident.

Hopefully one learns from the mistakes of others.

Going on safari does open one to meeting with certain accidents that are avoidable living in civilization.

But, living in civilization has its own list of unsavoury things that can happen to one.

VERY well said!

quote:

No doubt it was an accident BUT it's a darn shame how Stu has been left

Ozhunter, Can you expand on this?

I suppose most of us take medical insurance when we go on safari.

But, how many actually take insurance against something like this happening?

That is if you do shoot someone, your insurance will take care of it??

In fact, is there any insurance that will cover you for this sort of thing?

quote:

One can look at this from many angles.But, the fact is accidents do happen.And they do happen because someone made a mistake.These two are inseparable.What none of us know is all the facts.None of us was there - and even if we were, I bet each might have a different saying about it.How many of us here have had what one might call a close call with dangerous game while on safari??And I mean a REAL to goodness dangerous situation - not the Mark Sullivan type where one knows exactly where the animal is, and well prepared in advance of what to do.In those situations, one acts by instinct - I know, what one PLANS to do sometimes does not pan out exactly.In the few situations where we have been onto a wounded animals - lion, buffalo etc - where one has no idea where exactly that animal is due to some obstructions - my own plan is to have the rifle at ready, thump on safety, finger off the trigger, and LOOK!.As soon as the animal is sighted, the rifle comes up to the shoulder, at the same time the safety is taken off, and the trigger is pulled as soon as the rifle hits the shoulder.The above is what gets PLANNED in my mind.Does it happen differently in reality?Sure it does.I have had occasions where I have fallen on top of my PH.I have had occasions where my PH has fallen on top of me.All this happened while we were retreating from an animal.What had happened to Stu WAS an accident.Was it avoidable?In hind sight, all accidents are avoidable.But, we cannot wind the clock back and eliminate the mistakes that had caused that accident.Hopefully one learns from the mistakes of others.Going on safari does open one to meeting with certain accidents that are avoidable living in civilization.But, living in civilization has its own list of unsavoury things that can happen to one.

Saeed, I think what you state above is true and is the heart of this entire "conversation". The problem is, you are falling into the trap many others are, there are 2 events or groups of time here.

1) The moments leading up to and including the incident, what happened here is only known to those present. To speculate about what happened or what would have happened if you were there is of no value.

2) The span of time from the second the trigger was pulled until either the issue is settled to the acceptance of those affected or the passing of those affected.

The technique being used by most is to combine the 2 events, all that can be used to view #1 is hindsight, nothing can change it, sympathy for all involved is required because "it could happen to anyone", therefore the affected parties have no valid issue during period #2. What did "boarkiller" say? "End Good, All Good".

The problem is, that is horseshit, something very heavy did occur in time #1 and there are men that are responsible. Those same men are currently living through time #2, how is that going? Stating that it was an "accident" allows 1 of them to get on with his life, what about the other? The fact that someone screwed up "accidently" in time #1 does not absolve them of their responsibility (either civil or moral) in time #2. How those affected behave in time #2 is all that matters because they cannot change the past, they can only strive to affect the future. This is why everyone was so upset, it was plain as writing on a wall, immediately the incident began getting "down played", Stu was in good shape, doctor said it was a "light tissue wound", would not "stop him from hunting", he would be back in short order. That was done for 1 reason only, to protect the reputation of the one that pulled the trigger (for whatever reason). Well, here we are 3 years (?) later and seeing a post on another forum that states Stu hasn't been able to pass his shooting exam due to his injury. Wow, apparently it was a huge deal that has indeed affected this mans life and his families life.

In closing, Tim Herald is the one who has chosen to live the "public life", he has reaped the advantage, is there not a disadvantage? Who else in their life gets upside with no downside, that's just not reality. Tim came on this forum and made this incident public in short order after it happened (he was literally still in the field), why? Read the post, he says it, to beat "the rumor mill". If Tim feels he is getting un-fare representation on the forum he chose to publicize this on, come on and set the record straight. That goes for Stu as well, if he thinks he or anyone else involved in this tragedy is being represented unfairly, set the detractors straight. But that is not what we are hearing, their silence leaves only those on the perimeter who know them as a source of information, and what they are saying is deafening.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I suppose most of us take medical insurance when we go on safari.

But, how many actually take insurance against something like this happening?

That is if you do shoot someone, your insurance will take care of it??

In fact, is there any insurance that will cover you for this sort of thing?

That is a good question. I carry a million dollar liability blanket that is supposed to fill in gaps of coverage. Including hunting. This specific scenario will be reviewed as well as jurisdiction of coverage.

After this happened I checked with my insurance agent about coverage for something like this.
He said my homeowners policy would cover it, so I raised my coverage to a million dollars.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I suppose most of us take medical insurance when we go on safari.

But, how many actually take insurance against something like this happening?

That is if you do shoot someone, your insurance will take care of it??

In fact, is there any insurance that will cover you for this sort of thing?

That is a good question. I carry a million dollar liability blanket that is supposed to fill in gaps of coverage. Including hunting. This specific scenario will be reviewed as well as jurisdiction of coverage.

I have $15m public liability insurance cover for shooting activities worldwide except USA/Canada. I make sure it is renewed automatically!

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

No doubt it was an accident BUT it's a darn shame how Stu has been left

Ozhunter, Can you expand on this?

I guess what has a few guys not happy about what went on is. One guy gets shot and his life is turn upside down. He has be fighting his way back to make a living and get on with his life.

The man who caused the problem went on with his life and doing hunts like nothing happened by what must can tell.
It seems more then one person feels tim maybe should of helped stu out more then it appears he did. Very few people really know the true facts of what was done by tim for stu. But as someone looking in from the outside I am not sure how fair it was for one guy to go through hell and one guy just go on living his hunting life style spending money to hunt.