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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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WRONG! | |||
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Well, even if it is 64,000 acres it doesn't mean you can't have a smaller area with a thriving small pride of lions. Deer raised inside a high fence are restricted in their movements even if the acreage is very large. (Perhaps the ones in the middle aren't restricted but the ones on the edge necessarily are). That doesn't mean they aren't completely wild. | |||
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The pride range areas of lion differ from region to region mainly determined by availability of prey. The ranges of lion in say the Kruger and very different to those in the Kalahari or the Namiib and differ to those in Tanzania. Non pride males ( nomadics ) literally bounce around between the range areas of prides like a balls off the bumpers on a pin ball machine. Lion life is not easy ! it's in constant turmoil ! Over years of observing our own resident pride we can attest to it ! The Kruger has over time dropped fences with some of the big 5 reserves that bounded the western border. The main reserves were the Klaserie, the Timbivati and the Sabie Sands as well as other smaller reserves. Other reserves were formed by the amalgamation of formerly smaller properties under common conservancy agreements. The western borders of these reserves all are fenced to law because of FMD. Traditionally the farms bordering the Kruger were all roughly 5000 ha in size. This was determined by the way the 3 surveyors von Willigh, Vos and Gilfillan laid the farms out in the late 1800's under the then ZAR measuring distance by hours by horse. Because these surveyors were from Europe they named the farms giving them european and english city names. Berlin, Madrid, Hull, Sark Alicecourt, Ravenscourt Kent, Boston, Newington, Amsterdam,etc. Very view actually had Afrikaans names like Suikerkop, Hoedspruit, Diepkloof. There was a time when lion, cheetah and wild dog were shot on sight but times changed. The big 5 became a tourist draw card and hunting on many of the reserves declined in lieu of tourism. Some still allow limited hunting but overall hunting has been displaced by eco tourism . | |||
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And it maybe wrong. I said quick internet search. Live Science says 100 square miles quoting National Geographic. The conversion is 64k acres. | |||
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There is no specific right / wrong answer to this! Lion density is predicated on available prey, habitat compatibility and human interference. I've hunted lions in many different countries, and in multiple locations throughout most of these countries. In almost every instance the density of lions varied greatly. Without question though, I saw the greatest density of lions in areas with little to no human interference and high game numbers - buffalo in particular. In areas of less game density I would see fewer lions, with smaller prides of females (2-3) sometimes even lone females. Where as in areas of much greater game density prides of 4 - 6 females were more common. I think the largest pride I ever saw was in Mozambique in an area bordering the Kruger Park. The pride had 8 females, 1 big male and the area was loaded with game (much of it coming directly out of the park - as the fence was virtually non-existent). | |||
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Aaron Neilson - I sent you a PM. | |||
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Agreed! +1. | |||
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Absolutely and this is how hunting will survive. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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100% ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Perhaps the import ban forced the price down, but the last I checked before the ban it was about $80,000, all in. Like $55k day rate and $25 trophy fee. Not many $50k, all in, lions left in wild places. Those disappeared about 2010-2011. Will J. Parks, III | |||
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And that is the attitude that is going to help brimg about the enkd of hunting in Africa. The ANTI's Do Not care about a/any hunters experiences, they want it ALL stopped, regardless of the reasons hunters give. The Reasoning of killing animals, Just For The Safari Experience, will cxome back to haunt hunters. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Did you interrupt the adults continuously as a child too?  Mike | |||
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That’s why all I see of his posts is this: Ignored post by Crazyhorseconsulting posted 06 February 2018 19:48 Show Post I find the topics are much more enjoyable and insightful without having to wade through his constant “LOOK AT ME!!” posts. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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No I didn't because where I grew up and the period of time I grew up in the "Adults", were courteous enough to listen to what children said and then rationally discuss the subject with them. My bet is, I have been hunting a little longer than you have Jines and have had longer to watch the changes in attitudes toward hunting and hunters. One thing that has been clearly demonstrated in this discussion and similar discussions is that "Hunters" have absolutely No Problem what so ever in attacking each other and creating lines of division. We are doing the antis work for them, and do not care. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Aaron, it is such a pleasure to read your statement written with the correct use of 'shooting' vs. 'hunting'. On this issue there have been many pleas for "hunters to stand together". I 100% agree, but I do not like to be on the side that asks us to "stamp out canned lion hunting". OTOH I will give my full support to stamp out all forms of "Put & Take animal shooting", which captive bred (or ranch) lion shooting really is. I so wish that I could do something really good to teach some of the 'stupidly anti high fence hunting' AR members that hunting plains game on some - not all, but definately at least some - high fenced farms, can be very challenging and ethical? Maybe I could invite a generally respected "I'll never hunt on a high fenced property" AR member for a free "test the experience and report the truth" hunt here somewhere in the Free State. I have started my hunting career on some sort of "behind a fence" hunting and only much later in my life. That was the only hunting I knew about, and I got to just love the experience, and the tasty meat that I harvested. Only much later in my life I for the first time experienced hunting where there are absolutely no fences, neither high nor low, for hundrerds of mkilometres in any direction. Difference? In one place at a certain time there are simply no animals worth hunting - they have migrated! Suggestions? Andrew McLaren Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974. http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa! Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that: One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it. One cannot cure: Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules! My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt! | |||
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Andrew, I am reasonably confident that most people, hunters and non-hunters, appreciate the material difference between a roan that was purchased at an auction as a yearling, released onto a 20,000 acre high fenced ranch, allowed to live and breed on the ranch and is ultimately hunted as a mature animal years later as part of a sustainable hunting program (and in some cases to simply die of old age on the ranch) . . . and a lion that was hand raised from birth to maturity in a pen, released into an enclosure of relatively modest size, never allowed to live or breed in the enclosure and is shot within hours or days of having been released. Understand that many on AR that feign not to appreciate the distinction do so simply because it is inconsistent with their narrative. I am happy to defend and explain the former to a non-hunter . . . the latter, not so much. Mike | |||
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That^^^is a very reasonable and well articulated stance that 99% will agree with.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Agreed. But, my objection to this is the simple fact that we are being forced to accept to give up a legal form of hunting. Where do we draw the line? They are chipping at our hunting rights, and we are bending backwards to please them. | |||
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Please do tell what should our reasons/attitude be for hunting in Africa? With your vast experience there we are all listening. Do you even understand what is meant by the "total safari experience"? | |||
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It is legal for me to shoot a doe with a dependent fawn too . . . but that does not make it right. Mike | |||
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I agree with Mr. Jines statement but have struggled with this issue in respect to what Saeed stated about chipping away at our rights. This is a good approach IMO to bring an end to this shooting of livestock. DSC and SCI have not banned any hunting (nor can they). They are not supporting it and giving members guidance to ethical hunting practices. You can be a member of both and still go shoot a canned lion. If anything, these decisions have brought to light the practices of canned lion hunting. Hunters I know have shot cattle killing lions that crossed under the fence in to the game area while on a plains game safari (for an additional fee of course) and actually believed that is what happened. What I hope happens is the market dictates the outcome, in other words hunters self regulate and quit this practice to a point of it not being economically feasible to operate these shoots. | |||
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There many forms of hunting which I have no wish to participate in. But I don’t waste my time telling others not to enjoy them. You are actually proving my point. Are we going to campaign to stop any form of hunting someone or other objects to? | |||
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Precisely . . . self regulation guided by principles of ethical and fair chase hunting is far better than any legislative or regulatory solution. If we as hunters do not self regulate our conduct in a manner consistent with such standards, our rights will be taken away. There are plenty of examples of this already. In many Texas counties there are minimum antler restrictions in place. Why? Because hunters were shooting anything with horns including immature animals and not allowing younger animals to mature. That is why ethics and responsible hunting have to be a part of the conversation among hunters and why the argument that "if it's legal it's okay" is shortsighted. In the end what is legal can be changed and our irresponsible actions will hasten those changes. Mike | |||
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Saeed, I think its very important to remember...hunting is NOT a "right", its a privilege. Unfortunately one that can be taken away for various reasons. I think Mike Jines sums it up pretty well! I don't argue the legality of canned lion shoots, but it is honestly hard to argue the legitimacy of such a "hunt", strictly IMO. I was never opposed to them, I too was of the opinion - if its legal, then carry on. But when I was forced to try to defend it, I found myself unable to "argue" for something that I felt in my heart was just not right. If the lion lives and hunts freely on the property, then my all means - carry on. But we both know the canned lion shoots are much different than that, and its become an issue that's impossible to avoid. Again, just my opinion. As Andrew mentions above, he grew up hunting "high fence" - as have many south Africans. To them its just the norm. I think that's where a lot of the disconnect between different groups of hunters comes into play. With the exception of a few, and most certainly those of us that were born / raised in the American West - "high fence" hunting is completely out of the norm. Never once have I hunted a "high fence" place here in N.A.! I have however hunted high fence in S.A. and Bostwana, as well as Argentina and New Zealand - but never in N.A. So right or wrong, I think many American hunters look at high fence hunting in a much different light than those who come from places where its standard practice. I'm not saying we Americans are "right", I'm just saying that what one is exposed to in life generally dictates their opinions on matters such as this. I'm certainly not opposed to the high fence ranches in Texas for example, but if some giant whitetail buck was raised in a pen its whole life and then released into a hunting block just to be shot days later - I think justifying that has "hunting" versus "shooting", would be a difficult argument to make? However, I will guarantee you - Americans on a much greater level than elsewhere are opposed to any / all high fence hunting of any kind. Right or wrong, its just a fact! | |||
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SCI was/is the biggest venue for this captive bread, put and take shooting and not just in Africa. Which is why my possession is hunters should force SCI and professional hunters associations to do away with not only the practice but the trinkets of status that is obtained through such practices. For the record, I submit and agree that a high fence game area can be done ethically and fair chase. If someone wants to start a thread about what that requires I will add my two cents about what that entails. I will submit 4 guiding principles now that lack substance: game breeding on its own, game feeding on its own, an area in size is that allows a specific animal to elude the hunter, specfic animals given years to habituate to the area before being targeted. What we have in this and similar conservations are little more than puppy, kill kennels for a space on the wall and status in a book. | |||
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There are many in the industry in South Africa who have predicted that the process and practice of "game farming" in South Africa is headed in the wrong direction and more so that the hunting world will eventually rebel against it. It's sadly a double edged sword ! On the one side it was a huge conservation success and on the other it may also be the death knell for the same. Farmers transformed former ranch lands to small conservancies with hunting as a source of income. This is a very very expensive endeavour because fencing to law is often more expensive than the land that is fenced ! Unless there is another form of income to do this these properties are dependent on a constant source of hunters. Take this away and they will have to go back to commercial farming ! So whilst there was a boom in conversion of farm land to conservancies in the 70's and 80's this may actually reverse if hunters boycott South Africa as a hunting destination ! | |||
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Exactly why we need to push the message that no one needs to eat meat to live...they do so for their own pleasure, for their own "culinary experience." | |||
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I agree, but there's a reason why most high fence hunting operations have 100% success rates. | |||
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100% ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Yes, but I would argue that's not entirely true! I hunted a 46,000 acre high fence place in SA in 2015. I wanted another eland - we hunted hard for them, saw them on several occasions - but never connected. They were keen, knew their home range and unfortunately did a good job of avoiding us. Did I shoot other game, yes! Did I get an eland in a high-fence, nope! | |||
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What everyone needs to understand is, it does not matter what hunters think or believe, the ANTI'S want it ALL stopped, PERIOD! They do not care about our personal ethics and all that we do by drawing these lines of divisions, is show those wanting to stop hunting that hunters cannot find common ground and present a united front. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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That is exactly what is happening Saeed, and Hunters are pushing it. Ever hear the expression, "My Way Or The Highway" Saeed? Well that is just exactly how many "Hunters" feel. Either everyone does things their way or those that don't have no right referring to themselves as hunters. Elitism among hunters will end up killing hunting, and personally I do not see anyway to keep that from happening. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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This is not true. Antis can be won over for lack of a better phrase by sustainable, ethical hunting that contributes to habitat and local populations. They may not join p, but they can learn to accept. This is what happend with the producers of Trophy documentary. They were rabid anti hunters who by their own admission set out to harpoon the hunting industry and hunting/conservation model. Guess what, they learned that hunting is different than shooting and accepted that hunting does provide a benefit to game and people when done appropriately. Stop saying antis and non hunters cannot be engaged. It is simply defeatism and not true. | |||
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I guess I am a heretic hunter. I believe hunters should fight for rules and regulations that match their hunting ethics. I am not alone in fighting changes to state laws/regulations that would have allowed hunting over corn feeders, using scopes on muzzleloaders or pistol bullets, using ATVs in many hunting areas, using certain electronics and cameras, shooting chukar from motorized boats, etc, etc. etc. Nothing wrong with trying to create a hunting environment that a person can be proud to defend. SCI saw the light or more likely was forced to see the light. Hunters argued that a legal hunting method/system was bullshit, and eventually got SCI to agree. Hunting's future is not weaker because of this. | |||
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I and others have converted quite a few on the basis that hunting protects land and water. Our presence protects the last of wild Africa and here the wildlife populations are stable. There is a move afoot that more integrates communities and increases benefits to these landlords. You do not come to Africa to eat your trophy and nor does the meat provide for communities. It helps but there is simply not enough to go around considering the limitations of quotas. As wild Africa diminishes what is left is becoming extremely valuable and communities are aware of that. The future is maximising the use of these lands for their benefit what ever the model. The world is not yet aware of communal needs and wants but it will come. If hunting is viable and enhances a community it will stay. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Just think all of those lion breeders will be out of business or only cater to European shooters and any one who wants to say "See I shot a Lion in Africa." Mike | |||
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Some can be converted without a doubt. On the other hand, some are so rabid foaming at the mouth that no amount of scientific evidence will ever convince them. My wife was against hunting for most of her life. Since she has met me she has learned a lot and has totally changed her position. Just last week at SCI, I was heavily involved in some conservation activities. After observing what was going on and all the good it was doing, her response was that most non- hunters have absolutely no idea that this type of thing goes on to help the animals and to help the people. In addition , she has repeatedly remarked at how shocked she has been at the extent these activities are conducted. You should her now. Minds can be changed. | |||
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Antis will never be converted. They would rather see government hunters killing animals by the thousands each year replace sport hunters. Or, the reintroduction of natural predators to keep wildlife numbers in check, even if that means a certain number of people and pets will be killed by those predators. Or, pay the cost of having wild animals darted and neutered no matter what that cost was. Nothing will convert those people. But most non-hunters aren't antis, and can be converted with logic and facts. | |||
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Absolutely correct. That's the point and it has been made ad nauseam to those that howl that the antis will never be converted PERIOD, the antis want all hunting stopped PERIOD, the antis do not care about personal ethics PERIOD, blah, blah, blah. It is tiresome to be sure but seems to be the only mantra they are capable of expressing. I think it is now just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. Mike | |||
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