Opus1,

Those are good questions and I have asked some of them.

What I do look at is results. There are a members here that have taken areas basically devoid of game and have taken them back to game rich paradises. These operators should be rewarded for their efforts with our business.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

But make no mistake about it...I hunt because I am a hunter...it is all about the experience.

Lane I have probably been a hunter about as long as you have, possibly a day or two longer and I agree 100%, I am a hunter, I was born a hunter and will die a hunter and it IS all about the experience and not the kill/not the trophy.

But in case you and others have not been looking at the world around you hunting and hunters have became persona non gratta in many peoples point of view.

No matter our own justifications for WHY we hunt, world wide, more and more people are questioning the place hunting, especially of species such as lion and elephant has in our modern world.

It appears on the surface that includes our President.

I don’t disagree. And I also agree with your basic premise that hunters must put aside personal biases and stay united.

I just wanted to make sure that people who hunted strictly for the experience were noted.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeBurke:

Opus1,

Those are good questions and I have asked some of them.

What I do look at is results. There are a members here that have taken areas basically devoid of game and have taken them back to game rich paradises. These operators should be rewarded for their efforts with our business.

No question about that at all Mike. I would just like to see more actual data flowing out of these operations. And if we're not asking the questions, the data will never come.

Like most things run by experts, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. SCI does some good work, but they over step their bounds sometimes and this is one of them..

This canned Lion thing is the baby of ideologs, it has nothing to do with anything, it effects nothing but emotion from holier than thou individuals..Why is that: because every Lion killed behind a high fence is the salvation of a wild Lion. Were it not for canned Lions those same folks would likely kill a wild Lion, Canned Lions may in fact be the salvation of the Lion itself the way I see it, a means of restoring the Lion populations, and those raising lions need both markets, but that's another damn created problem by some experts and Govts, not to mention it could open a real can of worms because when Governments of one degree or another start ruining our lives, taking away our rights, and effecting the family income of thousands they have defeated what government is all about! It could be the beginning or the end of all high fenced hunting, and that in itself could be the worst thing for animals of the wild, as all that land will become agriculture and the animals interfere with Agriculture in most 3rd world countries and to a lesser extent in the USA.

High fenced hunting has brought animals that would or have been on the brink of extinction back or on the road to survival, those ranchers have saved, the Rhino as an example..Furthermore the high fence has made possible those not so well healed average individuals the ability to hunt Africa at an affordable price. Do WE want to give that up? Do away with high fence hunting and thousands of Americans and others will not be able to afford those plainsgame hunts.

Its time for all this BS to stop, its reached the point of political correctness to agree with an attitude that's not a positive approach to the animals..Management is becoming a sin in some places in the hunting world..

The future of both Africa and the USA for hunting is at stake, lets not allow it to be ruined by those that have no clue to reality and hey! they live amonst us..

Emotions and symbols are the most powerful tools in advocacy.

Have some of you forgotten Theadore Roosevelt refusing to shoot a tied up juvenile bear.

Captive reared lions do not benefit anyone or any animal but the person selling them. It is a guarantee, that a specific animal will die.

A specific animal raised in captivity and hand feed.

This is not hunting and should not be associated with hunting.

LHeym500,
Your post is eloquent and well spoken but without substance or hands on knowledge IMO..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Like most things run by experts, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. SCI does some good work, but they over step their bounds sometimes and this is one of them..

This canned Lion thing is the baby of ideologs, it has nothing to do with anything, it effects nothing but emotion from holier than thou individuals..Why is that: because every Lion killed behind a high fence is the salvation of a wild Lion. Were it not for canned Lions those same folks would likely kill a wild Lion, Canned Lions may in fact be the salvation of the Lion itself the way I see it, a means of restoring the Lion populations, and those raising lions need both markets, but that's another damn created problem by some experts and Govts, not to mention it could open a real can of worms because when Governments of one degree or another start ruining our lives, taking away our rights, and effecting the family income of thousands they have defeated what government is all about! It could be the beginning or the end of all high fenced hunting, and that in itself could be the worst thing for animals of the wild, as all that land will become agriculture and the animals interfere with Agriculture in most 3rd world countries and to a lesser extent in the USA.

High fenced hunting has brought animals that would or have been on the brink of extinction back or on the road to survival, those ranchers have saved, the Rhino as an example..Furthermore the high fence has made possible those not so well healed average individuals the ability to hunt Africa at an affordable price. Do WE want to give that up? Do away with high fence hunting and thousands of Americans and others will not be able to afford those plainsgame hunts.

Its time for all this BS to stop, its reached the point of political correctness to agree with an attitude that's not a positive approach to the animals..Management is becoming a sin in some places in the hunting world..

The future of both Africa and the USA for hunting is at stake, lets not allow it to be ruined by those that have no clue to reality and hey! they live amonst us..

Sorry Ray, I totally disagree. Certain outdoor writers have long advocated that shooting captive lions reduces pressure on wild lions, but this is crap. Quota will ensure we don't overhunt. In the US, we have quotas as well: we call them limited tags. In Africa, we have quotas as well and hopefully they are sustainable.

There are plenty of guys who have shot a pen raised lion that would not have gone on a 21 day lion hunt in Tanzania or for that matter Zim.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Emotions and symbols are the most powerful tools in advocacy.

Have some of you forgotten Theadore Roosevelt refusing to shoot a tied up juvenile bear.

Captive reared lions do not benefit anyone or any animal but the person selling them. It is a guarantee, that a specific animal will die.

A specific animal raised in captivity and hand feed.

This is not hunting and should not be associated with hunting.

LHeym500,
What Ray wrote has a lot of truth in it. Africans hate lion, leopard, and especially ele. Hate them! They are vermin to them.

And if you eat meat and/or wear leather...animals die after being hand-fed just for that purpose...often times a much less sightly death than that of being shot with a rifle.

While I agree it has nothing to do with my style of hunting...too strong of a stance against high-fence operations will have unintended (at least from my point of view) consequences. Careful what you wish for.

Farm-raised lions are an agricultural product nothing more and nothing less.

And I have to ask those supporting SCI’s definition of an estate...what do you think about the Save and the BVC? These places will likely eventually be the only wild huntable African game left (or places like them).

I believe the “estate” definition could use some added language myself.

Lane - Don't leave out the millions upon million upon millions of acres of unfenced hunting in Namibia.

If one wants to use farm/pen raised lion to limit the black market of poached lion byproduct they have my support. I think the international community would never support such a market ( see rhino that are not even killed). That is a different conversation as to whether hunting/conservation based organization should endorse, sale, and glorify stock yard killings. Maybe we should allow Brama bulls?

That market would benefit wild lion. Such a market does not exists.

Like wolves out west or even bison ( disease to cattle)out west, deer on farms those who live cheek and jaw to wildlife competiting against wildlife rarely love wildlife.

True ethical and sustainable hunting allows the wild animal to be tolerated without the local soecies being overloaded by unlimited non selective hunting.

I may never hunt lion. Limiting to 6 year makes my lower quota and drive up prices to were I cannot afford to. That is fine if wild lions are able to pay for their spot outside of a fence, and by extension pay for the “lesser” game as well.

No serious discussion about high fences and "estate" hunting can be had without looking at how high fences came about in Africa !

On the short we have to understand that fences are a requirement by law under two different departments. Veterinary and Game Conservation !

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
No serious discussion about high fences and "estate" hunting can be had without looking at how high fences came about in Africa !

On the short we have to understand that fences are a requirement by law under two different departments. Veterinary and Game Conservation !

I believe that requirement is only in South Africa. The areas that I hunted in Zimbabwe and Mozambique had no fences what so ever.

quote:

While I agree it has nothing to do with my style of hunting...too strong of a stance against high-fence operations will have unintended (at least from my point of view) consequences. Careful what you wish for.

quote:

I believe that requirement is only in South Africa.

So there is the solution, simply shut down hunting in South Africa.

Congrats a small step in the right directions from SCI- HOWEVER I will be hugely surprised to see SCI turn away the business they receive from the numerous canned lion hunting companies in buying booth space etc at the shows! I think it is lip service. Do you really think we will see SCI ban the likes of TAM and dozens of others that spend huge money with SCI? I doubt it!

SCI . . . proving the old adage that even a blind hog can find an acorn occasionally. Kudos to SCI for having the courage to act after every other responsible hunting organization had already done so. First for Hunters, Last for Hunting.

They may be late to the party but at least they have finally showed up. I give them credit for finally taking a step in the right direction.

quote:

Kudos to SCI for having the courage to act after every other responsible hunting organization had already done so. First for Hunters, Last for Hunting.

You mean: ... "First for Naive, Egoistic Hunters with Deep Pockets, Last for Hunting".

buffybr

Most of subsaharan Africa had under colonial rule developed veterinarian systems. These together with developed public health systems saw to the "civilization" of Africa.

When colonial powers withdrew and or Countries became independent African states much of these institutions collapsed and fell into disrepair.

Zambia had fences in the 50's and they fell into disrepair. Tanzania had no export beef market so they had no call for fences however the presence of FMD is seen as the limiting factor for them developing a export market

quote:

Tanzania had no export beef market so they had no call for fences however the presence of FMD is seen as the limiting factor for them developing a export market

First and foremost Tanzania still has no export quality beef let alone sufficient numbers which would qualify it as having an exportable product.

There was never need for fences as the main ranches were simply tracts of wilderness which were shared with game and villages; cattle were allowed to roam freely and bedded at the various cattle stations within their grazing zones.

There are no commercial abattoirs to speak of, the last (only) Tanganyika Packers, went bankrupt and shut down circa 40 years ago.

Most of the decent meat available on the local market is imported from either neighboring Kenya, Zambia and a RSA.

I am a Afican ! I was born and raised there ! My family owned a game ranch within a large conservancy.

Game fences , Zoonosis and the influence they had on our prehistory very much part of who we are.
As a then member of the wildlife group of the veterinary society of South Africa my late father and I attended many symposia , read many books and manuals on wildlife management and the status of animal diseases in subsaharan Africa. My father was one of the principal founding members of the Old Transvaal game owners association.

My wife's grandfather was a Canadian veterinarian who was sent to Africa during the 2nd World War to inspect cattle for disease in what was Northern Rhodesia ( now Zambia) he worked mainly in Barotseland. The British were using the Zambian Beef to make "bullybeef" ( canned corned beef) for the troops and they were scared that that would import FMD into Europe and England.
He earned a OBE for his efforts. He later settled in Livingstone and then moved to Bechuanaland ( Botswana) where he did the same. My late father in law was borne in Livinstone and he studied Veterinary science at Onderstepoort later to work as a State veterinarian in the Eastern Cape doing the same

As to our own, we operated behind the FMD red line
The implications of this not lost on us !

At one point we supplied Buffalo calves to the disease free buffalo breeding programs so we had intimate knowledge of what it meant to be part of this fight.

I don't see how the SCI refusing to recognize trophies or accept advertising is going to do anything to stop hunting lions behind high fences. If the hunter doesn't want to bring any of the lion back to the U.S., a hunter is pretty much free to hunt lion any way it is offered in RSA. The only way to stop it would be to make it illegal in RSA.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
I don't see how the SCI refusing to recognize trophies or accept advertising is going to do anything to stop hunting lions behind high fences. If the hunter doesn't want to bring any of the lion back to the U.S., a hunter is pretty much free to hunt lion any way it is offered in RSA. The only way to stop it would be to make it illegal in RSA.

You are right of course.

But, SCI is closing the gate after the horses have bolted!

In fact, a lot of the illegal forms of hunting in South Africa only came about because of SCI’s rediculous “trophy competitions”.

People who have not a single iota of hunting sportsmanship in them, were running over each other to get the biggest animal possible.

quote:

The only way to stop it would be to make it illegal in RSA.

Yes, an attempt was made some years back by the Minister for Environmental Affairs but the mafiosi got their way.

The current Minister is trying her luck to ban it.

Once again, money talks while BS walks - its a vicious circle.

All any of us can do is express our belief, and all though I have never sold a canned Lion hunt, nor have I ever shot a canned Lion..I still believe there is a place for Lions as a livestock business and I do believe it helps to preserve the species..

I laughed at the comment, that game depts. managing Lions was the way to go..First of all you cannot manage lions to any degree as everytime you shoot the alpha male you killed his get, the new male eats them..

The black gov. of Africa is prone to corruption and can be controlled like a ball of clay, and Lions have been eating their family for years, along with elephants, Hippo and Rhino and they are the best of poachers and have stripped Tanzania of elephant to the point of tuskless cows have evolved in great numbers..Applying US logic to Africa has been going of for years, it just aint' ever gonna work..

Most all the nay sayers do and have done PG hunts in Africa and Zim behind high fence, its accepted by the masses, Cape Buffalo are auctioned of at sale barnes weekly, why no fuss? is the King of the jungle a myth that's the holy grail and not to be included? if so the day will come that no lion will survive unless raised behind a fence to its very survival..That day may be just around the corner in the 3rd world.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and arrogant deeds, based entirely on emotion and lack of knowledge...even by some in the know. Peta can buy a gov. We cannot, but we can approach this subject with support to the right people. it may help.

Im not sure but that a different approach might be better such as no Lion shot behind a high fence is recognized in record books (SCI and Boone and Crockett). Such has been the case in high fenced hunting in the USA, maybe that is in existence, not sure, but its a good place to start along with charging a tax on fenced lion kills to go into a slush fund to be used in the preservation of the Lion, lots of ideas that have never been invoked..All SCI will accomplish is poaching, and smuggling.

Folks,

I'm still of the opinion that if it's legal I personally don't care how or where a hunt takes place but I am coming around to the POV that the negative public perception of some legal activities is important. The croc sequence in the Trophy movie was nauseating and can do hunting no good. So SCI late to the party or not did a positive thing with their decision on fenced lion hunting.

As for hunting lion, leopard and elephant just to acquire the trophy that's just silly. I think that I can speak for more than just myself when I say that in the hunting of any of those three species the trophy is only a by product of the total safari experience.

Mark

Mark,
I don't disagree with you on the ethics, not at all..and I,m a better cowboy than a wildlife biologist! Im also opinionated as hell..

Mr. Atkinson, in the spirt of debate, and the statement that my post lack substance, responsible outfitters with lion on quota are not killing prime age males hoilding prides.

The science is out. Only transit, prideless males are to be targeted.

Outfitters like Fairgame have shown that such targeting can be accomplished. A gentlemen here stated a thread how the six year rule is being implemented with success in Zimbabwe.

So, no responsible wild lion management does not remove males hoilding prides. Therefore, their cubs are not killed as a result of international hunting,.

Agricultural products/animals should not be advocated for, market place provided, and glorified (medals, awards, record books) by an organization that states it is a hunting/conservation organization.

I asked the same questions you did. I believe it was Steve Robertson responding to my questions that drove this home. Folks who hunt canned/hand reared lion are not spending the dollars for a wild lion (unless they are tricked it was a wild lion).The money raised from canned lion stays with the farmer. It is not used to maintain/restore a wild game area; ie habitat.

I agree these farm raised lions can provide poaching relief. If a international market could be established for farm raised lion byproduct to feed that market. There are 2 issues with this. First, the other side says that such a legal market would only increase poaching pressure on wild lion bc the poached lion could find itself on the legal market under the guise as a farm raised lion. I tend to think this position is wrong. However, I cannot rebutle it with other than my mental logic. Second, given the international community continually refusing to allow farmed rhino horn to be legally traded. When such rhino are not even killed makes it seem obvious no such market for farmed raised lion will/can be established.

This is not a political correctness issue. The issue is does canned lion provide a benefit to maintaining or enhancing wild lion populations or habitat. The answer appears no. Of only does canned lion provide no direct benefit to wildlife. It appears to jeopardize wildlife because it is an anchor that is used to rally non-hunters to support banning hunting. Without hunting we all agree/believe wildlife outside of a few protected nation parks is doomed.

Let the RSA Department of Agriculture advocate, regulate, and provide a market place for farm raised lion. You will not here me object. I ask that you not call to hunting or associate it with hunting.

Hate me, love me, shoot me, ignore me, or label me a troll. I have said my peace. Others and you can have their say and do not need my permission to have it.

Ray:

Here is the problem I have with saying canned lion hunting reduces the pressure on wild lions: that very statement implies that there is a certain demand to kill lions that will be met come hell or high water. In other words, the quota system to maintain a sustainable harvest does not or will not work.

Well, if that is true, then we all need to stop hunting. No one has more of a vested interest in maintaining healthy viable animal species than hunters, the exception of those that make their living hosting us. The "bucket list" photographer will never to go to the Selous for a photo safari, for his or her needs are all met in a zoo-like park.

I’m not entirely sure that the science is settled on whether or not farm raised lion benefit wild lion or not. Intellectually, I think they do help. Not by offering more hunters an option directly, but rather by reducing the financial benefit for overhunting (ie its a lot less tempting to allow an extra lion or two at $25k than at $250k) and by finding a way of providing them to non hunting markets (like the China herbal medicine market.) Also, I would think (and had heard that it happened in KNP) that the commercial lion could serve as a source for repopulating a depleted area and as a source of new genetic diversity in a small population of wild lion.

I think that the whole 6 year thing is a bit disingenuous in that really it is a way of reducing offtake the same as reducing quota. De facto, it sounds to me that instead of the 6 year rule, if game departments would have toughened enforcement to prevent overshooting and had cut quota drastically (I think that Tanzania cut quota by 80% from up to 5 a block to 1 a block at the same time as they put in their age rules- and Zimbabwe had excellent cats without the 5-6 year rule but with a drastically smaller quota) it would have had just as much an impact as the whole 6 year thing. I believe Dr. Easter even admitted as much, but that it was thought the age rule was more palatable/workable... if we really were using the 6 year rule, there would be no quota on lion needed, no?

A bit long winded, but in essence, while proper game laws will prevent hunting from making an impact, this means that whatever is done with the farmed population has no impact on wild populations that are being optimally managed. It does not mean that farmed animals have no impact on populations overall or on the overall survival of the species in cases where the government or local stakeholders have failed in protecting their biodiversity...including potential large scale damage from not controlling overpopulation of some protected species.

As has been said before, we do have lots of examples where captive populations and captive hunting programs have saved at risk species and have the potential to allow reseeding of areas of restored habitat.

The only problem with captive lion hunting is it’s political unacceptability. It’s easy to say it offers no benefit now, but historically (see scimitar horned oryx, addax, Dama gazelle, and yes, white rhino) it has been shown to be beneficial in other species.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

The only problem with captive lion hunting is it’s political unacceptability.

. . . and its ethical repugnancy. Raising an animal, lion or otherwise, in captivity to be released in a relatively confined space with the specific intent that that particular animal will be "hunted" within hours or days of being released is antithetical to any responsible definition of "hunting".

What we do is governed by public perception !

Society as a whole dictates by majority consensus what will be tolerated or not ! Its unthinkable 30 years ago that pot would become mainstream ! its unthinkable that being gay or trans or whatever people want gender to be would be acceptable !

If you told America that they would one day have a black president or a woman as president you would have been laughed out of the house !
There were folks who said black majority rule in South Africa and Rhodesia .... never in our lifetime !

We would be naive to believe that it is not so !

Here is BC Canada, without deliberation, without input from science or any other interested group a decision was made to outright ban trophy hunting of Grizzly Bears. Just like that with a stroke of a pen ! It is driven purely by emotion !

Parents get called in by teachers because their children tell their friends how they went hunting with grandpa !

If the airlines tomorrow decide no more travelling with guns it will be the death knell of hunting as we know it, if tomorrow each and every African country pull a Kenya or Botswana on us we are done for !

So all this hand wringing and grinding of teeth is all for naught because one day it will be our millennial kids and their buddies who will determine whether there will be hunting or not.... and given what i'm seeing around me it aint looking up !

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

What we do is governed by public perception !

Precisely . . . which is why we as hunters need to stand for ethical practices and condemn those practices that fuel negative public perceptions like canned lion hunting. Will that save hunting? Who knows, but engaging in practices and conduct that most reasonable members of the public are likely to conclude is beyond the pale will only hasten the demise of the sport.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

The only problem with captive lion hunting is it’s political unacceptability.

. . . and its ethical repugnancy. Raising an animal, lion or otherwise, in captivity to be released in a relatively confined space with the specific intent that that particular animal will be "hunted" within hours or days of being released is antithetical to any responsible definition of "hunting".

Sure, by standards of hunting.

They are livestock.

My guess is that it is as good a way as any to kill a cat for purposes of slaughter. You are playing semantics with it. Just because it is not what you and I would do does it automatically become evil, and similarly, if the animal is going to die (for bones, meat, and hide), wouldn’t a relatively unconfined (compared to the usual living quarters for these animals on those farms) with death being comparatively quick and painless be ethical?

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

The only problem with captive lion hunting is it’s political unacceptability.

. . . and its ethical repugnancy. Raising an animal, lion or otherwise, in captivity to be released in a relatively confined space with the specific intent that that particular animal will be "hunted" within hours or days of being released is antithetical to any responsible definition of "hunting".

Sure, by standards of hunting.

They are livestock.

My guess is that it is as good a way as any to kill a cat for purposes of slaughter. You are playing semantics with it. Just because it is not what you and I would do does it automatically become evil, and similarly, if the animal is going to die (for bones, meat, and hide), wouldn’t a relatively unconfined (compared to the usual living quarters for these animals on those farms) with death being comparatively quick and painless be ethical?

SCI is not a cattleman’s assocation.

Depending on what ones personal definition of hunting is, the argument can be made that killing anything inside a fence is not hunting... a very slippery slope.

Give the amount of jewelry, art, food, and what all at the SCI or DSC convention, obviously it does not have to be truly hunting to be offered at one of these venues.

Personally, if I am truthfully told what I am buying before I pay for it, it becomes a personal ethical choice. I agree that what some of these farmed lion shoots are is despicable personally.

I’m just forwarding that a farmed lion probably is not wholly unethical and of no use in conservation.

We collectively seem to be dividing ourselves again, to no real purpose. While I don’t think canned shooting/agribusiness is ethically wrong, I certainly agree it is not hunting.

I think the whole contrived notion that captive bred lions are livestock and someone shooting one should be viewed as the abattoir employee that euthanizes a cow is positively absurd. What Hume is doing with rhino and rhino horn may be consistent with a livestock analogy (the periodic harvesting of horn) but characterizing captive bred lions as livestock and the shooting of such lions as the slaughter of livestock is little more than a contrivance to in some way make the practice sound less offensive. Good luck convincing the public that Bob dressed in his hunting finest, carrying his scoped .375 H&H and going into a pasture to shoot a lion that was captive bred and raised specifically for Bob or another person like him to shoot and mount within hours or days of release, is ranching and not some perverted version of hunting that is trying to be sold as something else. Frankly even making the argument is detrimental to the credibility of hunters.

I would just have the farmer do the slaughter. This assumes you can get the market established for lion byproduct which is as likely as Satan repenting.

I agree there is no room for the Bwana imagery. That is why removing it from the hunting market (SCI and DSC) is so critical.

Would a middle way ever prove financially feasible? I mean behind-fence lions that live on the land full time and only excess numbers are harvested.

I brought this up some time back and was told no, that the lions would eat so many plains game (of salable value) that the lion would have to be priced higher than non-farm lion. But has anyone ever actually run the numbers? Has anyone taken into account that the price of wild lions is only going to go up?