quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
Would a middle way ever prove financially feasible? I mean behind-fence lions that live on the land full time and only excess numbers are harvested.

I brought this up some time back and was told no, that the lions would eat so many plains game (of salable value) that the lion would have to be priced higher than non-farm lion. But has anyone ever actually run the numbers? Has anyone taken into account that the price of wild lions is only going to go up?

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Want to tell me the ethical difference between an elephant, a lion, and a kudu?

How about a guinea fowl or a pheasant?

Point is, ethically it’s the same it’s just the public perception that is different.

How is it less ethical to shoot a canned lion than it is to pay for Kobe beef?

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
There is a difference between the ethical use of animals and hunting.

I don't disagree that without fair chase it isn't hunting... but behind a fence can still be fair chase, it's a matter of what constitutes fair chase then.

What I'm upset about is Mike's use of ethics, i.e. wether or not it is permissible to right thinking people, vs a definition of hunting.

For a lawyer who knows words have specific meanings he is being excessively broad in his terms.

How is having someone else kill a cow that was raised more or less like a pet (Kobe beef) for beef ETHICALLY better than shooting a pen raised lion for a hide yourself? Neither is hunting, and neither is illegal, but one you take personal responsibility for the act?

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
I just looked at the Bubye Valley Conservancy numbers. Four hundred lion on 925,000 acrest or one per 2300 acres. That seems a very high concentration -- I'm surprised they have any other game left! Do those posting here consider these wild lions are not? If yes, then my question is answered -- you could do this same thing in RSA and make enough money to get by.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
Would a middle way ever prove financially feasible? I mean behind-fence lions that live on the land full time and only excess numbers are harvested.

I brought this up some time back and was told no, that the lions would eat so many plains game (of salable value) that the lion would have to be priced higher than non-farm lion. But has anyone ever actually run the numbers? Has anyone taken into account that the price of wild lions is only going to go up?

I know Mr. Nelson has a hunt report that matches your definition. I do not know enough about it to comment above that. You may be able to look up the report.

A similar situation maybe the Bubbey Conservancy in Zimbabwe. They have a government mandated perimeter fence are hard looked after, but are wild, self feeding, self breeding. I have no issue with this. I am not arguing this is canned lion shooting.

There was some talk of Bubbey getting rid of the Pride when the import ban went into effect because they could not pay to support the pride. I know they pulled a raffle after The Cecil Debacle.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
I just looked at the Bubye Valley Conservancy numbers. Four hundred lion on 925,000 acrest or one per 2300 acres. That seems a very high concentration -- I'm surprised they have any other game left! Do those posting here consider these wild lions are not? If yes, then my question is answered -- you could do this same thing in RSA and make enough money to get by.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
No you don't. How many lion are taken off the Bubye each year? Divide that number into 925,000 and that is the number of contiguous acres needed to produce one lion each year.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I think the whole contrived notion that captive bred lions are livestock

They certainly are not wild animals. They are bred and raised in captivity closely resembling the husbandry of common livestock species. What else would you call them? Killing them certainly does not change the wild lion population...would you not agree? Thus...they are domestic animals that are not pets. Livestock seems a very logical term for them.

and someone shooting one should be viewed as the abattoir employee that euthanizes

Euthanize? That is a very poor word for how livestock are killed at slaughter houses. If you don’t believe me...lets go take a tour.

a cow is positively absurd. What Hume is doing with rhino and rhino horn may be consistent with a livestock analogy (the periodic harvesting of horn)

Cattle are ‘killed’...their horns are not harvested. Wool sheep would be nearer to your analogy.

but characterizing captive bred lions as livestock and the shooting of such lions as the slaughter of livestock is little more than a contrivance to in some way make the practice sound less offensive.

By this statement...I can tell for sure that you have not spent any time in a slaughterhouse as they ‘are’ very similar.

Good luck convincing the public that Bob dressed in his hunting finest, carrying his scoped .375 H&H and going into a pasture to shoot a lion that was captive bred and raised specifically for Bob or another person like him to shoot and mount within hours or days of release, is ranching

Sounds exactly like ranching to me and my family has been ranching cattle since the 1870s. Read your words above.

and not some perverted version of hunting that is trying to be sold as something else. Frankly even making the argument is detrimental to the credibility of hunters.

quote:

Captive bred lions are livestock...really cannot call them anything else.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I guess that makes Bob a rancher . . . good luck selling that distinction.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
No you don't. How many lion are taken off the Bubye each year? Divide that number into 925,000 and that is the number of contiguous acres needed to produce one lion each year.

You are seriously misinformed.

You don’t get wild lions without lots of plains game and buffaloes.

In hunting conservancies you also need business models that lets lions occasionally eat expensive plains game (sable Nyala Ect) and lots of buffaloes.

Can’t divide acres and start comparing.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Captive bred lions are livestock...really cannot call them anything else.

But Lane, don't you understand some of your fellow African Hunters subscribe to a "Higher" set of "Ideals & Ethics" than you and are willing to lose all hunting in Africa than face reality.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
I can't tell what LEDVM is saying. Is he saying all lion behind fences (Bubye) are "captive bred" lions? Or not. They are captive alright, but I don't consider them "bred". Allof them that reach six years of age might eventually be taken by hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
Okay, then next question. Does a Bubye lion cost more, less, or about the same as a tribal lands unfenced lion.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
Okay, then next question. Does a Bubye lion cost more, less, or about the same as a tribal lands unfenced lion.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
Would a middle way ever prove financially feasible? I mean behind-fence lions that live on the land full time and only excess numbers are harvested.

I brought this up some time back and was told no, that the lions would eat so many plains game (of salable value) that the lion would have to be priced higher than non-farm lion. But has anyone ever actually run the numbers? Has anyone taken into account that the price of wild lions is only going to go up?

I know Mr. Nelson has a hunt report that matches your definition. I do not know enough about it to comment above that. You may be able to look up the report.

A similar situation maybe the Bubbey Conservancy in Zimbabwe. They have a government mandated perimeter fence are hard looked after, but are wild, self feeding, self breeding. I have no issue with this. I am not arguing this is canned lion shooting.

There was some talk of Bubbey getting rid of the Pride when the import ban went into effect because they could not pay to support the pride. I know they pulled a raffle after The Cecil Debacle.

Sir, are you referring to me? If so, I can elaborate?

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
No you don't. How many lion are taken off the Bubye each year? Divide that number into 925,000 and that is the number of contiguous acres needed to produce one lion each year.

You are seriously misinformed.

You don’t get wild lions without lots of plains game and buffaloes.

In hunting conservancies you also need business models that lets lions occasionally eat expensive plains game (sable Nyala Ect) and lots of buffaloes.

Can’t divide acres and start comparing.

Mike

Well, inform me, that's why I'm here asking questions. I can't see why you couldn't scale down the Bubye operation and the post just above you indicates this is already being done in RSA.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
I will read those links later, thanks, but there must be some smaller size acreage that can work. As stated, this is being done on smaller places in RSA. I am not suggesting little places can raise lion this way, but 25,000 acres, maybe? There has to be a number where it becomes feasible.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I think 40,000 in a situation like Mr. Nelson has described is about as small as you can go.

I admit I do not have the information to back up this feeling.

Lion and large game it predates upon need room.

The Tembervari was the outfit I was thinking about in South Africa. This outfit is huge. I think bigger than Bubye.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
I will read those links later, thanks, but there must be some smaller size acreage that can work. As stated, this is being done on smaller places in RSA. I am not suggesting little places can raise lion this way, but 25,000 acres, maybe? There has to be a number where it becomes feasible.

The minimum area to have a wild lion ecosystem is beyond my knowledge set.

The answer should be easy to find if one digs around or contacts the unbiased lion researchers.

But the question is also beyond just ecosystems. You need a economic and land ownership property right structure to allow wild lions.

Just back of the envelope the manager of Mokore, Don Jooste, and I calculated that lions ate more game in the save than what hunters shot across all concessions. I am pretty sure it was the same for bubye.

The whole South African canned lion industry is not based on lions eating plains game. It's based in lions eating dead cattle from livestock operations. No cattle operations no chattel lions. The protein equations for lions is expensive.

All the chattle tigers in china are near chicken/poultry operations. Same for croc and gator farms.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
Would a middle way ever prove financially feasible? I mean behind-fence lions that live on the land full time and only excess numbers are harvested.

I brought this up some time back and was told no, that the lions would eat so many plains game (of salable value) that the lion would have to be priced higher than non-farm lion. But has anyone ever actually run the numbers? Has anyone taken into account that the price of wild lions is only going to go up?

I know Mr. Nelson has a hunt report that matches your definition. I do not know enough about it to comment above that. You may be able to look up the report.

A similar situation maybe the Bubbey Conservancy in Zimbabwe. They have a government mandated perimeter fence are hard looked after, but are wild, self feeding, self breeding. I have no issue with this. I am not arguing this is canned lion shooting.

There was some talk of Bubbey getting rid of the Pride when the import ban went into effect because they could not pay to support the pride. I know they pulled a raffle after The Cecil Debacle.

Sir, are you referring to me? If so, I can elaborate?

Guys, here's my distinction for what its worth!

I did in fact hunt a high-fence lion in 2015, in the Limpopo province of SA. The ranch was over 40,000 acres - where all game, including the lions live Free-Ranging. This to insinuate they hunt / live completely on their own. The ranch had many different species of game, plenty for the lions to hunt freely for themselves. The lion I hunted had been on the property for almost 3 yrs, and a couple other males had been there from 3 months to 2 yrs - as I recall. I don't know the total number of lions on the property, but several males as well as females lived amongst the other game species.

We were specifically targeting this male, but we were not solely targeting this male. A couple of the other males were equal to him, and any of them would have been huntable. This was an attempt by the owner to try and offer another type of lion hunt, not a "canned" lion, but obviously not a totally wild lion either. One that met what he considered a "free-range" opportunity, without the total cost of a wild lion, but not a shoot for a canned lion either.

One can agree, or disagree with me - that's fine. My position is simply this - that a canned / caged lion, living in a 100' x 100' cage its entire life, and then released just prior to the hunter's arrival - is not lion hunting, its lion shooting! Regardless of the property size, its still the same - lion shooting! I'm not trying specifically to disparage it, I am simply trying to lay out the facts. Its this type of lion shooting that has IMO, created the huge controversy amongst the non-hunting community.

I have no opposition at all to high-fence deer hunting, etc. Except in the case in which these exact same practices take place. I am not well versed on that subject, so I cannot comment accurately. If a deer, or an eland lives on 40,000 acres its entire life, its still familiar with the lay of the land, fends for itself, and survives by avoiding trouble (i.e. predators) but if its released a day / days prior simply to be hunted / shot by a hunter, its not doing any of us, any good....IMO. Like everyone my opinion does / can change over time, based on the times we live in.

I don't want to target anyone specifically, I just want to see what's best for the African species we all love. Perhaps my opinion is in-accurate, I can accept that. But if so....show me how, and I'll accept that too?

If you haven't seen it yet....I would encourage you to watch the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oefYDUK-84A

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I think 40,000 in a situation like Mr. Nelson has described is about as small as you can go.

I admit I do not have the information to back up this feeling.

Lion and large game it predates upon need room.

The Tembervari was the outfit I was thinking about in South Africa. This outfit is huge. I think bigger than Bubye.

The Timbavati is part of the greater Kruger Reserve and is contiguous with the Kruger without a fence between.