quote:

Originally posted by Anton van der Spek:
Zimmie

I wanted to say something but I will rather hold my tongue.

I am an African Boertjie that don't talk bad about Rhodies.

Anton...if you have no dealing in illegal activity in Zim or anywhere else for that matter then my post has nothing to do with you. I call a spade a spade. If there is any Zimbabwean or any other nationality involved in this conduct then what i say goes for them also. Unfortunately your industry standards allow almost anyone into the game. I am not for a second saying that Zimbo's are perfect believe me. A genuine question now...why so many bad egg SA PH's giving the good of which there are many a bad name?

I told my PH at the onset of my hunt that I was only interested in stalking and shooting on foot and would not fire from the truck. He was completely satisfied with this. A few days later we spooked a very large kudu, the biggest seen the entire trip, and as it bounded off into extremely thick brush he commented with a sidelong glance that the best way to shoot a trophy of that magnitude was from the truck. I replied that in that case I probably wouldn't be shooting one that big, and it prompted a discussion about the topic. He indicated that the vast majority of the clients on that ranch (a very large spread in Botswana) did at least some shooting from the vehicle.

Saeed, I understand the "when in Rome..." thing, and for a person on a casual vacation who wants to experience new things, places and people it makes perfect sense. If I visited Africa numerous times and found myself in a time and place where it was the "thing to do" I might go along with it for one shot...maybe. But as a person who makes only one or perhaps a very few African hunts, I am stubborn enough to insist that things be done my way, and would make sure ahead of time that my PH would be in agreement. I would and did listen to and heed my PH's advice regarding the details of techniques, tactics, etc. but as far as the basic ethical philosophy of how to hunt and when to shoot, if they won't agree up front to do it my way I will find someone else with whom to hunt. If you don't agree with the way they do things in Rome...don't go to Rome.

Another PH told me, on about the fifth day of a seven-day hunt, that a hunter who worked hard for his trophy without success should feel no shame from shooting an animal that was accidentally blundered into with the vehicle. I think that he was feeling the pressure of not producing and was hedging his bets a bit. I'm glad that I wasn't put to that test...I think I know how I would respond, but until you are in the situation you can't be sure.

JWM
+1!

When in Rome....
If you do not like the way they do things in Rome, go to Paris. Simple enough.

Do your research, and you may end up in Barcelona.

JTEX, I agree baiting is baiting but where is the line drawn. Say a land owner puts out a 5 acre field of corn and does not harvest the corn but lets it stand for wild life feed and he sits on the edge and watches a trail the deer have made comming to feed and going to bed. This is baiting but legal vs a mechanical feeder that whirls at 4:45 PM every day. Now as to a Leopard or Lion bait man they just don't come like they show on the TV show. Been there done that or about 20+ days and never saw a cat on bait, when you have to leave the blind at dusk.

There are places where the shooting of even a trophy animal from the top of a vehicle is OK, and in fact can be a must!

You wound a Cape buffalo, or big male lion or leopard and it gets into the long grass where you can’t see three feet in front of you. Now the land is flat and the vehicle can go into the grass with the PH and client hunter on top! With this situation I don’t think anyone with a lick of sense would say that would be unfair to the wounded animal that is suffering in there, or that is unfair to the un-armed tracker who would go in ahead of the PH and hunter to sort this animal out.

However having said that hunting of unwounded trophy animals from a vehicle is not my cup of tea, it is often done in many places in the world, and is legal in most places. In my part of the USA, ( Texas ) it is legal to hunt predators or non-game animals like jackrabbits with a spotlight at night. Game animals can be hunted from a vehicle on your own private land or with a permit for disabled hunters. Game animals other than GEESE can be hunted over feeders, or water source from a blind. I will agree with Die Ou Jagter on the type feeders that make sound when it dumps feed (corn) on a schedule. I’ve seen hogs come running when they hear that sound. However a blind set up near a water source where there are lots of water sources, with corn scatter on the ground by hand to simply hold their attention when that head for water is another thing all together. Nothing says they will come to that water source when they have many of the same in all directions. This is no more a sure thing that the hanging of a bait for a leopard, or lion and dragging a gut pile a dozen different dirrection leading to the bait. You are still guiding the animal to the shooting, whether it is by sound or scent, or thirst.

If they happen that way that day then find the bait ………………..Well what is different ?

I see absolutely no difference between this and black bear in North America, or lion or leopard in Africa, over bait.

None of this should be done where illegal, or if it is against your personal ethics, however!

…………………………………………………………..

quote:

Originally posted by Norwegianwoods:
...But I couldn't care less about what others choose to do.
Your hunt, your money, your decision, but don't lie about it.

+1

For me it is important that we be straightforward about what we are doing.

There is a difference between hunting and shooting.

For me hunting involves the chasing of ones prey - pitting human skills against animal instincts to pursue your quarry and strike a killing blow.

Using a Bow, blackpowder, or iron sights only weapon, is merely a matter of how much more of a challenge one wants to add to thier hunt.

If you are using stands, blinds, calls, and/or any type of bait - you are not hunting, you are fishing. The animals you are after may move on land, and you may be using a bow or rifle instead of a rod and reel, but the game is the same.

While I'll be the last to say people should stop doing those things - just don't call them hunting.

I engage in shooting activities myself from time to time, varmit shooting being a regular past time.
But although I have fun pulling the trigger and killing lots of ground squirrels, it is most definately a "shoot" and has nothing to do with actual hunting.

Just like there are fine shooting activities like bird shoots and game drives, they are fun and can take a lot of skill. But they also have nothing to do with actual hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
JTEX, I agree baiting is baiting but where is the line drawn. Say a land owner puts out a 5 acre field of corn and does not harvest the corn but lets it stand for wild life feed and he sits on the edge and watches a trail the deer have made comming to feed and going to bed. This is baiting but legal vs a mechanical feeder that whirls at 4:45 PM every day. Now as to a Leopard or Lion bait man they just don't come like they show on the TV show. Been there done that or about 20+ days and never saw a cat on bait, when you have to leave the blind at dusk.

Sticky situation for sure. I have sat many days in a blind and never seen a nice mature Buck either. They will hardly ever come to a feeder pen on a typical ranch ( at least what I'm used to ) we use the feeders to hold the does in the area and catch the big bucks sneeking around checking the does.

I've not done the cat thing yet but in my mind it's pretty much the same.

In my mind it's splitting hairs. I don't think either way is bad.

I do know that when I'm in Africa the last thing I wanna do is sit in a blind.

I do believe that as long as it is legal, each to his own and I have nothing at all bad to say about either.

Thanks for the reply though, I appreciate your thoughts.

.

If one of these lovely ladies ever manages to catch us...I WILL shoot from the truck!

quote:

Saeed I would say people lie about things they feel personally shameful about.

Joe the reason that people feel strongly about it is that there is a difference between hunting and shooting.

A. Some folks deal with situational ethics. If it is LEGAL, why worry.

B. The only difference in hunting and shooting, is hunting is what is done BEFORE the shot is taken, then it becomes shooting.

quote:

Game animals other than turkeys can be hunted over feeders, or water source from a blind.

Not being disrespectful Sir, but the only non-legal hunting method for turkeys that I recall from TP&W's website concerned shooting turkeys from a roost.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Game animals other than geese can be hunted over feeders, or water source from a blind.

Not being disrespectful Sir, but the only non-legal hunting method for turkeys that I recall from TP&W's website concerned shooting turkeys from a roost.

You are absolutely correct CHC, I was thinking geese and wrote turkey!

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

If you are using stands, blinds, calls, and/or any type of bait - you are not hunting, you are fishing. The animals you are after may move on land, and you may be using a bow or rifle instead of a rod and reel, but the game is the same.

While I'll be the last to say people should stop doing those things - just don't call them hunting.

I sure do enjoy Leopard fishing!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

If you are using stands, blinds, calls, and/or any type of bait - you are not hunting, you are fishing. The animals you are after may move on land, and you may be using a bow or rifle instead of a rod and reel, but the game is the same.

While I'll be the last to say people should stop doing those things - just don't call them hunting.

I sure do enjoy Leopard fishing!

...........................

back in 2009, I went on a "cull" hunt to Namibia. It was in the Kalahari desert and there is NO way to stalk anything. First place, the hunting area is so big you'd walk yourself to death, in sand that was like walking on a beach. You'd come up over a dune in the truck and the game would, or not, be there. Usually 250-300 or so yards. You were told what one to shoot, etc. This was not really hunting, and we were to shoot 21 animals in 5 days, or less. I was kinda glad to have the bench bag on top the trucks roof, as gave a good steady rest and there was no way to get out of the vehicle and get closer or somewhere to set up (nothing by sand and grass). So, I shot from the truck. I also wanted to test out some new bullets, and all the shooting allowed that, and made sure we hit what we shot at. But this was NOT hunting. It was shooting, like "hunting" deer from a tree stand, or blind it. There's no hunting in it. Or using a feeder, or any other bait. When I was in RSA last year, in the East Cape, we would drive around and sometimes, spot game from the truck, but I don't recall, other than one Impala, seeing game,then getting out of the truck to stalk it. All the rest, we found by walking in an area where game should be, and spotting it and stalking to within shooting range. Shooting a wounded DG animal from a truck being run through the grass, is not the same as the basic hunt for it. I had a friend who wanted to hunt Lions right, so spent 10 days, out walking and trying to get up on them. That's the right way. I would refuse to shoot a Leopard, Lion or Bear over bait.. indeed, if running the record books would not list game gotten that way. Nor deer shot from a tree or blind. The whole idea behind hunting is to pit YOU against the animal If you're going to just ambush it, where's the challenge. I started hunting at my grandfather's farm in PA, and we did not set under a tree, in full camo, and call turkeys in. We listened for them, then stalked them. Wayne van Zwol said he does the same thing. You earn your trophy, not just shoot something.

I hunted N. Namibia and Rhodesia in 1972, first hunt, and we walked and stalked everything, except an Eland that crossed the track in front of the truck, and we got out and followed it, to get a shot. N. Namibia has a lot of brush and you can stalk game, and my long shots there were under 50 yds. Pretty much the same in Rhodesia, where even my Zebra shot was 50 feet or less, after stalking in close. To me, that's what hunting is all about. Pitting YOUR ability to get close to the animal, not shooting from 500 or so yards. That's not hunting, it's long range shooting on live targets. That's okay on enemy soldiers, but not on game you're supposed to be giving a fair chance.



In the Kalahari situation, which wasn't really a hunt, per se, and considering the terrain, I could see shooting from the vehicle, and even having a bag on the roof to use as a benchrest, because the area was wide open (one shot was about 400 yds), and no way to creep up closer, or anything to use as a rifle support if you did, and these folks didn't have sticks. But, again, did not see that as a hunt.

quote:

I do know that when I'm in Africa the last thing I wanna do is sit in a blind.

Especially when you have a predator with fangs as thick as your thumb breathing into your face through a thin veil of grass.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

All in all, under these circumstances, it matters little to me whether the shot is taken from the truck or right beside it or a little distance away from it.

Sorry MR, you are dead wrong. Stepping out of the vehicle makes the odds of game fleeing that much more probable, even if you step only three feet way, to say nothing of the fact that you have a solid shooting position from the truck, esp if you are in the back.

I could have whacked a huge buff last month if I shot from the truck, but the PH clearly stated he wouldn't allow it, and I am okay with that. As soon as we stepped away from the truck, the bull bolted.

Shoot from the truck if you want, but don't tell me it is the same as stepping away, because it is not.

quote:

Originally posted by tysue:
I would refuse to shoot a Leopard, Lion or Bear over bait.. indeed, if running the record books would not list game gotten that way. Nor deer shot from a tree or blind. The whole idea behind hunting is to pit YOU against the animal If you're going to just ambush it, where's the challenge.

I can't wait until my Black Bear "fishing" trip in May. Done quite a bit of Deer "fishing" here in Texas as well. One big mistake I've made though, for the last few years, I've only purchased a "hunting" license. I guess with the new fishing definition, I'll have to purchase a "combo hunting / fishing" license this fall.

By the way, the challenge in stand hunting for deer is pitting yourself against the deer by learning his habits, where he sleeps, where he eats, the travel routes he uses to get to and fro, when he is likely to travel them, setting the stand in the proper place (especially bow hunting) taking into account wind currents and approach routes to not alert him to your presence. All this is enhanced by observing and selecting, through scouting, a specific deer that your are hunting, not just any old deer that happens to pass by. I can assure you, there is plenty of challenge in that!

This bullshit about my way is the only way and your way isn't really hunting is just plain getting old. Get over yourself man! If you like to hunt one way, that's great. What makes you think your way is the only correct method. I don't get it!

My dad told me 40 years ago; Son, you cannot tell an adult what to do. I think we do a lot of that on this forum; waste of time...
Everyone has a different perspective on what they believe is ethical in hunting or anything else of that matter.
You have long range hunter that we can bad mouth, The black powder guys may say the centerfire guys are not true hunters. The archers may say the gun hunters of any type are not "real hunters". The spear chuckers may bad mouth archers. It is all relative and ask yourself where do you fit on this scale??? Perhaps Tarzan is the final word.
Even the infamous Mark Sullivan who stares death in the face... Really? Swap in your 600 NE for a spear and we will see what real guts you have.
IT IS ALL RELATIVE and there is always someone who will judge your methods based on THEIR perspective; Pretty arrogant!
I have worn out a lot of boot leather in my 55 years chasing critters all over gods earth and more often than not, I have not been successful and if I happen to be in a vehicle when a nice speciman presents itself I am not going to ask myself a lot of questions. I probably would not shoot it out the window.. except pigs!!

One shoots from a truck.

One hunts on foot.

Laziness shooting from a vehicle, both client and especially the PH, and not sporting for the game.

Pretty simple.

Have done it myself on three animals, two my first safari and did not like the PH asking for shooting from the vehicle. The third was an impala on the run, and I shot it 'just because'. No big deal.

Supposedly many clients are so unfit they are unable to walk without collapsing wheezing for air more than a hundred metres from the bakkie.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
My dad told me 40 years ago; Son, you cannot tell an adult what to do. I think we do a lot of that on this forum; waste of time...
Everyone has a different perspective on what they believe is ethical in hunting or anything else of that matter.
You have long range hunter that we can bad mouth, The black powder guys may say the centerfire guys are not true hunters. The archers may say the gun hunters of any type are not "real hunters". The spear chuckers may bad mouth archers. It is all relative and ask yourself where do you fit on this scale??? Perhaps Tarzan is the final word.
Even the infamous Mark Sullivan who stares death in the face... Really? Swap in your 600 NE for a spear and we will see what real guts you have.
IT IS ALL RELATIVE and there is always someone who will judge your methods based on THEIR perspective; Pretty arrogant!
I have worn out a lot of boot leather in my 55 years chasing critters all over gods earth and more often than not, I have not been successful and if I happen to be in a vehicle when a nice speciman presents itself I am not going to ask myself a lot of questions. I probably would not shoot it out the window.. except pigs!!

Well said brother...

How about people shooting from a vehicle, AND at night using a light?

If legal, is that OK?

What if you're shooting say a huge buffalo from a chopper, is that OK?

What if that huge kudu trophy is tied to a tree, is that OK?

Or drugged?


These "no sporting ethics" people are a joke. IMO. Just collectors of carcasses.

True hunters hunt for the hunt, not the tape measure on a carcase at the end of the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
In the US, deer hunters put up feeders to draw teh deer to them, then sit in their truck and shoot the deer on deer season.

Not where I hunt they don't! Nor do most of the states all throughout the western U.S. First off, its totally illegal to feed/bait big game, and its totally illegal to shoot from a vehicle.

quote:

its totally illegal to feed/bait big game

Apparently you've never seen an episode of Spirit of the Wild.

quote:

Originally posted by zimguide:
Sad Sad Sad that anyone wants to shoot from a truck.... Almost as sad as someone wanting to book a hunt in national park...funny that it is the same nationality in question here doing both these things.

Who the hell do you think you are Mr. Zim guide.

Let me start by saying. Add an address line to your handle. Then use your name or business name as a handle. Do not hide behind your computer keyboard Sir.

Then when I have a name I can talk to I would like to address you on the above propperly.

I am fedup being beaten with this stick, especialy by Zimbabwean PH's. I have very good friends in that country, and respect their industry to the highest degree. But Zimguide, you stepped over the line here Boet. We (the south african hunting industry) are trying to clean house, and there are a lot of the rotten apples that are thrown out on a yearly basis.

Who are you, and from what platform do you speak from?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Is it not against the rules in some parts of South Africa??

It is not againste the rules, it is againste the law, according to the new norms and standards that has yet to be implemented.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zimguide:
(inveriably a person of afrikaans decent)QUOTE]

And if that is not a racist comment I wonder what is.

I would love to know who this guy is?

At 2:25 is this what your talking about Charl ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFRbnA-sxrU

<

In florida you can not shoot a turkey within 100 yards of a feeder.
I actually agree with both sides of this isssue as I have done both and because someone will not shoot from a vehicle (or duck hunt from a boat) does not make them a hunter and the other not a hunter.Hunting is going out and finding prey and killing it, in our case its animals some for food some for trophy.Of course as usual anti-hunters have forced hunters to be very careful what they say about how they hunt or we would not use all the new terms that someone thought up such as harvested,taken etc instead of I hunted it and killed it.Everyone should do what they fell like all being legal and thats fine if someone does not like it that way so be it but that does not make him superhunter he simply has chosen his path.

quote:

You are absolutely correct CHC, I was thinking geese and wrote turkey!

That is perfectly okay Mac, I ain't 62 yet, but have been learning over the past couple of years that trying to hang on to information as you age gets harder every day, some stuff just sort of filters thru the cracks.

quote:

Not where I hunt they don't! Nor do most of the states all throughout the western U.S. First off, its totally illegal to feed/bait big game, and its totally illegal to shoot from a vehicle.

That is why I like to hunt in Colorado, and some of the otherr western states. However the western states are just part of the United States and Saeed is correct with his statement, whether people like it or not.

It goes back to the earlier "when In Rome" reference, and from there to the comments about talking to the guide/PH and letting that person know what you are and are not comfortable doing since it is your hunt.

If you don't want to do what the locals do, Don't! If you have no problem with the local custom, blast away and enjoy your hunt.

Ann I'm hoping that you will tell me that is photoshopped but I doubt you will.

That thing is so high, it should be painted to match the sky. Very poor camo. What is it like when the wind puffs a bit.

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
At 2:25 is this what your talking about Charl ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFRbnA-sxrU

<

It's sure is good to hear from you my Aussie friend.

I never commented on the pro's and cons from shooting of trucks. If you look at my posts, you will notice it.

I have last night shot 6 Impala females of the back of a truck. culling.

The Eland bull in the clip was shot for meat as a cull animal, on the high veld escarpment. The client never exported or wanted the trophy. This is not only a touchy subject for foreign hunters but local as well.

Just before that, he took a good Blesbok as a trophy that he stalked in the same place. This is the way I conduct all my highveld hunts since 2010.

We have shot most of our animals on the open plains of the Free State and Karoo from the back of the truck as that it is the way the guys hunt over there for years. I promise you 80% of the hunters on this forum that has hunted the Free State used trucks to get all their animals. Apart for the purist, Andrew your buddy. which I take my hat off too.

The way these hunts are conducted are very client specific, and I discuss it with them before they are conducted.

Ok, one of these days this controversial topic will be laid at rest because it will be illegal to do.

I want to address this in a propper manner to this man Zimguide once he has told us all who he is.

I don't shoot from the back unless it's just culling.
But I don't have a problem if someone wants to shot from a truck as long as it legal.

Crazy, which statement of Saeed are you refering to. People in the US set up at feeders and shoot deer is NOT correct as many have pointed out. That is like saying etc is the same in RSA, Tanz, Zim etc when one says something about Africa. Don't want to be too techanical but Texas does not equal the US much as many Texans want to believe.

I don't think Ann's photo is shopped, it looks like a typical Texan Hunt Truck. My only question about it is the bar in the upper blind, lower blind, or cab?

A few months ago I was talking with a white tailed deer hunting guide here in Iowa. He was complaining about the hunters in the area who surround sections with several 4WD trucks and shoot deer "so close to their trucks they can smell the exhaust". He sets his paying hunters in enclosed blinds of which they can shoot out the windows, and I would guess they are equipped with heaters and a coffee pot. Anyway, I would guess his hunters hunt in as much or more comfort than the guys with the trucks.

IOWADON - Oh Yea!

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by zimguide:
(inveriably a person of afrikaans decent)QUOTE]

And if that is not a racist comment I wonder what is.

I would love to know who this guy is?

Geez Infinito, are you going start the racist BS as well ?

"Afrikaner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Afrikaners (including the distinct Boer subgroup) are an ethnic group in Southern Africa descended from Dutch (including Flemish), French and German settlers"

What is racist about that?