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| One of Us |
Those people's ethics didn't change. Those folks were merely put into a position that brought their own personal ethics into sharper focus, for both themselves and others who were observing. | |||
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Ah Yes, but, Ethics are Personal concepts, not a hive mentality. It is incredibly easy to claim a higher standard of conduct when typing words on a computer keyboard, I think I would prefer to hunt with those that admit that the situation and the legalities would influence their decision on this. At least they are honest with themselves and others. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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That is the essence of it. People who are too quick to "claim a higher standard of conduct" are also often arrogant and egotistical. That said, just because someone will not go beyond their own boundary of behavior does not mean they are making any such claim. And, people who are too quick to condemn others because they live by a more restrictive code then they adhere to themselves are often arrogant and egotistical as well. I, for one, do not believe anyone should be held to what they perceive as a higher or lower ethical standard as long as they are living within the law and the boundaries of society. Finally, there are some who believe that everyone can be bought or seduced to do anything at all. Though that may be true for many, it is simply not true for all. . | |||
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CHC You got that right! No truer words were ever spoken! Grenadier, You are also spot on. Thank you! Let's hope we hunt with ph's that will uphold the law. As far as ethics go, to each their own what else can you say, one size does not fit all. I am guilty of shooting out of the truck and boat. I didn't relize it at the time that it was illegal. Hell, i didn't know. I do know that in parts of canada it's legal to shoot from a boat as long as the moter is shut off and out of the water. NRA Benefactor Life Member RMEF Life member Pheasants Forever life member National Trappers Assn. life member WTA member Boone and Crocket club member Wild Sheep Foundation member | |||
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The only change I would make to your statement is this:
The reason for this change, is that except for certain exceptions, hunters do not have a "gallery" watching them do their thing. African safaris are the excerption, but even then it is a case of "what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas". The PH and trackers are the only ones beside the hunter that actually know what happened. As long as what the hunter is doing is legal and can live with it, I say go for it. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Who is claiming a "higher" standard? Everyone's standards are their own, neither higher nor lower...simply different, which is as it should be. I have my standards, and adhering to them is important to me. Whether others adhere to theirs, or even have any, is not. Is it easier to assume that no one else cares how they behave than to care how you yourself do? | |||
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I remember some pretty high standards awhile back on a post I started. I shot an impala about 50ft from the truck. That still felt like road hunting to me. It was shooting and killing not hunting. With that said I would like to know how far from the the truck one has to be before they feel like thier hunting. If you are not quite out of sight of the car and you see a great trophy are you going to say naw hold on i can still see the car no fair let's wait. I suppose the right ansewer will be when it is right you will know. Like a zen feeling deep down inside. I say sometimes things are just meant to be, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. But, if you won't be able to look at your trophy on the wall without feeling bad, embarrassed or think you should make up another story about it than don't do it. NRA Benefactor Life Member RMEF Life member Pheasants Forever life member National Trappers Assn. life member WTA member Boone and Crocket club member Wild Sheep Foundation member | |||
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It sounds like you just stated your ethical standard. Others may differ. A true test of whether one has done something outside the bounds of what one considers ethical. . | |||
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A lot of folks are, just look at their wording in their posts. Things can be stated, without being said in so many words. Example: While it may be legal, I will not resort to that type behavior. That is pretty plain that the person making that statement has a "higher" standard of ethics, even higher if they throw in the words, i would not hunt with anyone that would do something like that. That is pretty cut and dried as far as setting a "Higher" standard goes.
As long as what a person does is legal and they can live with it, I ain't took them to raise, I don't pay for their hunts, they don't take meals at my table, so if they are happy I am happy. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Your point is????? Ethics are personal and individual. My ethical standards apply to me alone. When someone else starts footing the bill for my equipment/travel expenses/hunting liceses etc. etc. etc., then I might care about someone else's ethical standards. Since I really doubt that Saeed entertains the idea of adopting me, my standards work for me, and that is all that is important to me. Not trying to mean or be facetious, but as I stated early on in this discussion, this is one of those dead horse issues,   it is up to the individual to discuss hunting techniques/strategies/methods with the PH before the hunt ever starts. If there are things, no matter how legal or how accepted in the area you will be hunting, regardless of the country/continent, that you simply will not do, then just don't do them and have a come to Jesus meeting with the guide/PH. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I have shot several hundred buffalo. Most of them have been hunted very hard, some have taken days to shoot. But, the biggest buffalo I have ever shot - a 49 incher with a broken horn - was the easiest of the lot. We were driving to a leopard blind, saw two bulls running next to us, jumped out and shot both! | |||
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Saeed, Nothing wrong with that. We all would like to kill our animals after/during a hard hunt. Sometimes it just dosen't work out that way. It is what it is. NRA Benefactor Life Member RMEF Life member Pheasants Forever life member National Trappers Assn. life member WTA member Boone and Crocket club member Wild Sheep Foundation member | |||
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Ethics; would you continue doing what you are doing if you knew that your mother, father, wife, siblings, children, minister [of religion,] policeman, judge, collegues, were watching your activities.  | |||
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TW, I was talking about shooting from a vehicle. If you want to talk about the buffalo, then start a new thread and bang away. NRA Benefactor Life Member RMEF Life member Pheasants Forever life member National Trappers Assn. life member WTA member Boone and Crocket club member Wild Sheep Foundation member | |||
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Does anyone really believe the discussion on this thread is going to impact anyone or change the way they hunt? Doubtful. | |||
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I was talking about others giving their opinions on personal ethics regarding hunting. I was questioning why shooting near a truck matters to someone who bribes game scouts to forget about wounded game, be it a buffalo or anything else. Since you offered an opinion on this thread, I think this thread is just fine for discussing it. | |||
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You are correct in the fact that Indians hunt the way you say, both on and off reservation! The game men who told you this was legal are also correct, it is! Indians, by treaty, are allowed to subsistence hunt/fish by all means on reservations, or any federal land, water ways or state forests. It is federal law, so you will simply have to live with it! This has nothing to do with skin color, and only applies to NATIVE AMERICANS who owned all of North America before it was taken by force of the more powerful Europeans. As far as I know this is the only treaty that the US government has not broken with Indians! .....................................................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Again, and this just applies TO ME, others can do or say what they would do, as long and as loud as they wish too, and they can judge me however they wish too. But for me as long as what I am doing is LEGAL, that is good enough. Just my opinion, but as a GROUP, if hunters would concern themselves more with getting EVERYONE to hunt LEGALLY, and after that is accomplished then discuss the ethical aspects we would all be better off. Ethics as has been stated 40 bazillion times are personal, LEGALITIES apply to EVERYONE. Ethics make no difference to the illegal hunters, for legal hunters, ethics are formed from their personal experiences with the people they hunt/have hunted with, the locations and customs of the places they have hunted, and from the values passed on to them by their parents/grand parents. Again, just my opinion, but internet ethics are always better/more righteous than situational ethics, a subject most folks don't want to discuss. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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, I am crushed, I just knew everyone was going to stop using vehicles in anyway on their future hunts and burn all the trophies they can no longer bear to look at because the vehicle was in the same time zone.   Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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AHA, this is not a common thing in Texas but does exist! The fact that these things cost in the neighborhood of $100K I doubt very many deer hunters will be driving one to the deer lease! The high lift stand started in the extreme south Texas brush country, where from ground level you can rarely see more than 50 feet in any direction. It was first done by making a wooden platform on windmills just below the fans. Even then in that part of Texas you were lucky if you could see two or three clearings of more than 15 or 20 feet wide within 200 yds of your windmill. So people started building stands that could be towed by a pickup or jeep that could be raised to above the brush, and could be moved from one place the other, making it better that the stationary windmill platform. Then someone decided to simply attach it to the pickup or jeep, to be raised when not moving. These thing were no where as sophisticated as the monstrosity in the picture above. But in the original form, and for the area where they were used they were simply a very well thought out remedy to solve a real hunting problem in that area. …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… .....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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TW, I'm not against shooting from the vehicle. I would much prefer to hunt and walk all day long and shoot critters after a great stalk,however it does not work out that way sometimes. I just don't get why some people think it's ok to shoot next to the car but not in the car. Not a big deal, everyones different. Shooting my animals the way I did, did take away some of the overall experience that's for sure. I do not feel bad or embarrassed about that. IMO if I wouldn't have shot what I did when I did I would not had another chance. Some of us do not have the money to go to Africa several times a year or even every year. Please don't get me wrong on the last statement, I am not one to begrudge folks that are well off at all, You worked for it,you earned it, enjoy it! What I am saying is one never knows what may lie in the future as far as health and money goes. My sister died 10 days before my trip, she was 60. I was thinking of canceling but my family said heck no, your sister was so happy you were doing what you wanted and would have wanted you to go. Things like that have away of putting a different perspective on things. It was my first time and I wanted to get everything I could because you never know. I can tell now it would be much easier to come home with less or even nothing after the the first hunt or two. As far as the buffalo goes, that was wrong and it was 100% my fault. I said it before and will say it again, I am sorry it happened and I can assure you it will not happen again, EVER! I don't go around breaking the law. It did not feel like breaking the law or illigal activity at the time. It felt like just another deal in the bush. NRA Benefactor Life Member RMEF Life member Pheasants Forever life member National Trappers Assn. life member WTA member Boone and Crocket club member Wild Sheep Foundation member | |||
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Just an interesting observation I though about recently. With all the chest thumping about "my way is the only way" and the denouncing of tree stands, bait, game drives, etc., something crossed my mind. We call ourselves "man the hunter" or "man the predator". Truly the primordial instinct is alive and well within our souls. That being the case, do we not share our role as predators with the other predators of the world? Lion, Leopard, Croc, and others. What methods do our predator brethren use in their "hunting"? Does the Leopard not spring from a tree onto the back of its chosen game? Sounds like a tree stand to me! Does the Lion not position himself upwind of the herd inorder to cause a movement of the game into the waiting females ambush site? Sounds like a game drive to me! What about the Croc or Lion that takes his prey while it drinks from a waterhole? Baiting? And so on. As Humans, our best intentioned game laws are designed to promote conservation of our natural resources. Our worst game laws seek to restrict certain activities based on a small group's idea of what is right and wrong (personal or more likely regional ethics). What works in one area might not in another. A good example is the fellow accustomed to hunting Muleys and Whitetails on the plains of Eastern Colorado or the North Texas Panhandle. That fellow comes to South Texas and states that he will only participate in spot and stalk and not sit in an elevated stand. If that is his personal ethics, then so be it, but he WILL go home empty handed. The thick Jesse of the Zambezi Valley has nothing on the Brush Country of South Texas (except of course dangerous things like Elephant, Lion, Hippo and the others, but Zim doesn't have desperate illegals crossing the border stealing corn out of feeders and so on, but I digress!). Regional differences in hunting techniques are driven my many things, most of which comes down to methods that have proven themselves to be successful over a long period of time under whatever local conditions that may exist. Another example is the Limpopo Ranch Leopards of Northern RSA and Southern Zim. In most of these areas, night hunting with a spot light are both legal and required if one expects any level of success on Mr. Spots. The government safari areas of Zim are much more remote than the ranch areas and therefore leopards in the safari areas are not as accustomed to being hunted or being around people. Therefore, it is possible to get them onto bait in daylight hours. The game laws governing these two different types of areas, and in the same country in the case of Zim, have taken into account both the conservation aspect of managing the leopard population, and the regional requirements necessary to bring the animal to bag. Therefore, if hunting for a Ranch Cat, as I did on my first Leopard hunt, using the spot light doesn't offend my personal ethics. We followed the law. There is a reason the law allows the light in certain areas. A successful hunt ultimately involves the taking of a life. Sure, there are plenty of platitudes on the experience is the real goal and all that. There is truth there as I can certainly go on a hunt, not take an animal, and feel that I had one of the best experiences of my life. But for the most part, we expect or at least hope to bring an animal to bag. Hopefully, the local laws have been constructed for the protection of the species being hunted. Objections or acceptance of the local techniques being employed in the hunt are really nothing more than personal rationalizations of under what conditions a person feels comfortable with the taking of a life. Ultimately the prey doesn't care by what method it was pursued. For the most part, as long as it is legal, I'm OK with it. There are certainly some exceptions to this and under those situations where I object, I will not participate. But I will not engage in telling another hunter how he is supposed to hunt, or feel about his method of hunt. I certainly WILL NOT tell another hunter that he really didn't "hunt" because I do it differently and only my way is really "hunting". As long as the laws were observed, he paid for his hunt and he should be allowed to pursue it any way that brings him personal satisfaction and enjoyment. | |||
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Well thought out and very well put. NRA Benefactor Life Member RMEF Life member Pheasants Forever life member National Trappers Assn. life member WTA member Boone and Crocket club member Wild Sheep Foundation member | |||
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Todd - I agree, very good points and very well written. I love the analogies you made in the first two paragraphs comparing the way man hunts to the way predator animals hunt. This thread sort of reminds me of the sleeping lion thread. Some will shoot and some will not. Each person has their own set of ethics. | |||
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Mr. Williams, Many Thanks for an eloquent job on you response  Addendum, human hunters, simply because we do not have the physical attributes of our mammalian counterparts as predators, evolved with a brain and the ability to think of ways/methods giving us an advantage, because with out that advantage, non of us would be here today, because our ancestors would not have survived. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Most of the time I am of the live and let live philosophy and try not to judge other peoples hunting methods. I do get concerned when I see someone on TV doing something that will cause hunting to be seen in a bad light by the general non-hunting public. Shooting from a vehicle, whooping it up afterwards etc that shows a disrespect for the animal, can cast is in a not so good light to that public. I do think it is to our advantage to be careful on how we are perceived. I don't worry about he "Antis" as just our living upsets them no end. I live by what appears to be a much more strict ethical standard for hunting than most on here but in no way does that make me right and others wrong. I won't detail my standards here as I don't want anyone to think I am pushing my standards on them. 465h&H | |||
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Shawn, To the your original qustion just have a talk with your PH. If you don't want to shoot from the vehicle make that clear to him. It's your safari. To expand a little on what 465 said. I don't care what you do as long as it is legal but don't put the shooting from the truck and back slapping after the kill on the Interenet or videos for the masses to see. It just plain reflects badly on us hunters. We have to be careful not of the antis but the masses that are ignorant about hunting but can vote. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Sorry Mark. Your original statement was good, but those folks do vote. They might not have a problem with folks that hunt, but they might have a problem if those folks are acting like jack asses and not showing respect for what they are doing. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Years ago people like the Professionals in the East Africa Professional Hunters Association set good minimum standards. Nowadays the need to make a buck, commercialisation has eroded the standards where every man and his dog sets their own standards of hunting fair chase. It really comes down to this, when you write up the story, tell people about your hunt, do you: - need to lie and embellish the story? - do you need to cull out photos, or not take the photo of the high fence, the blind, the bakkie, the chopper or the drugged feed that was included in the "hunt"? "I shot all my trophies sitting in the back of a Landcruiser. I really enjoyed the hard hunt. I even broke a sweat as it was a hot day and the bakkie did not have a sun shade. Next time I am going to insist on a sun shade so I don't get sunburned." or "Look at my photos. See the tahr I shot. Its going to be a new top 10 world record. I shot it from the chopper in the background." or "I shot this lion in a small enclosure. I asked the outfitter not to release it the day before into the bigger paddock, as it wasn't necessary to have the pretense I was hunting a wild lion which was charging at the Landcruiser I was sitting in." Almost never seen or read photos and stories like this. Says something IMO.  | |||
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I always say - if you can get one foot on the ground; you are legal!!  Just kidding...The truth of the matter I believe is that a wild animal does not or may not reconcile a vehicle with hunters. How many times have we driven around game animals undisturbed and wondered at how quiet they are. However put two feet on the ground and take a few steps away from the vehicle and it is a whole different ballgame. You now have the sillhouette of an upright hunter - the two legs are the giveaway... and the animals are off!! I am just saying that I think this may influence the behaviour a lot of hunters... not wanting to take animals from the cover of a vehicle... A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Crazy, I'm not following you. What I evidently did not make clear was that we as hunters are not going to have much if any influence on the opinon of the rabid anti hunters. Who we can influence is the average citizen who in most cases is not pro or anti hunting. If these folks happen to see a video where a bunch of guys are shooting aniamls from the vehicle or whooping it up after something hits the ground it might effect there decision when and if they ever had to vote on a hunting related issue. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Great post Mr. Williams, thank for the time and thought it took! . | |||
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Mark, step away from the computer and take a couple of deep breaths and go to that zen place. I was agreeing with you 100%. The only thing I changed was that those people actually Do Vote. It isn't just a case of they can vote. And the behaviors you describe in this post and the earlier one, are the behaviors of jackasses. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Crazy, No breath necessary. I thought we were on the same page on this issue but kind of did a HUH after your response. Interent correspondence is often misunderstood. We good! Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Eureka we have FOUND the 11th. Commandment!!!!!  If each of us had a dollar for everytime we have had a post or thread misunderstood we could do a lot more hunting. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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First they came for the DG hunters, and I did not speak out -- Because I was not a DG hunter. Then they came for the truck hunters, and I did not speak out -- Because I was not a truck hunter. Then they came for the bait hunters, and I did not speak out -- Because I was not a bait hunter. Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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Nicely put. I was always under the impression that you do not shoot from the truck as you will promote a situation whereas and thereafter animals flee for the horizon on the slightest sound or appearance of your bakkie? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Exactly!!! | |||
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First they came for the high-fence hunters, and I did not speak out -- Because I don’t approve of hunting behind a fence. Then they came for the truck hunters, and I did not speak out -- Because I don’t approve of shooting from the truck. Then they came for the hide hunters, and I did not speak out -- Because I don’t approve of hunting from a hide. Then they came for the tree-stand hunters, and I did not speak out -- Because I don’t approve of hunting from a tree-stand. Then they came for the bait hunters, and I did not speak out -- Because I don’t approve of baiting. Then they came for me … and NO ONE spoke out Because I’d been such a pompous, self-righteous, pain in the ass, that everyone was glad to see me go.  | |||
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