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My rant about posts about Immature Trophies
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I'm sure this will cause a stir among some of us, but I've had a rant building up in me for a while and after a recent series of posts about what constitutes a mature trophy animal, I felt like I had to speak up on something that has been bugging me for a while. I’ve noticed more and more recently that forums like this, and to a lesser degree outdoors programs in general, have propagated the idea that unless an animal is “fully mature” (more on that definition later), that the hunter is somehow expected; no obligated to forgo the experience of taking that animal regardless of the quality of the hunt in every other aspect. There’s no need to produce snippets from various places on this forum that prove this point, you only need to search five minutes and you will find gobs of criticism of anyone who didn’t follow this unwritten rule. Many ideas can be valuable in life, that is until they are taken too far, and I think we have reached that point here and on popular outdoor television. And what I mean is that we are stealing the joy and spontaneity of the hunt that we once had as kids, and have taken the selection of what we are about to kill down to a series of calculations that quite frankly makes me cold. I see it here and I see it on the weekend outdoor hunting shows where a hunter and guide "analyze" an animal (usually a buck in Texas) endlessly, calculating every tine length, etc. until by the time the shot is taken, if it is at all, it seems more like picking an addition to your stock portfolio than your trophy room. I also believe this mindset is helping to dowse the flame in new hunters who take in everything we say. I'm not saying we should just shoot everything willy-nilly and start bragging. We should all have some personal standards that keeps us looking over the next hill. But what happened to seeing a beautiful animal that you are excited to take without feeling like you'll have to run the metaphorical gauntlet here in this forum? So, before I get crucified for making this general statement, let me explain a few points:

1.The definition of a mature trophy – Yes, we can all agree that no one should be taking totally immature animals if it can be helped, such as a fawn or young of a species. However, I believe that for many hunters “fully mature” should in most cases be synonymous with “fully grown”. Any special species conservation issues aside, who wrote the rule that says that we must absolutely take an animal that is old and on the way downhill or it is somehow a disgrace? Some of us literally spend tens of thousands of dollars traveling to Africa to hunt, and to turn down a nice Kudu for example after a hard hunt because someone somewhere said it should be another ½ curl or so seems the most ridiculous and counterproductive decision I can think of. If you enjoy waiting for the oldest animal in the bush, great. That will be a trophy to you. If you want to experience hunting of more species and take a number of average animals, great again. Why does one hunters trophy have to be another hunters disgrace?

2. The species dependent standard – Look, I’m not going to insult this entire forum by crying hypocrisy, but have you ever noticed how certain species get elevated to “only take mature animal” status and others don’t. It seems that the buffalo in particular and a few other species such as Kudu in Africa and the Whitetail deer back here at home get singled out for this special honor while other species simply don’t. If we are all supposed to respect the rule that says an animal has to be past breeding age and past its peak physically, why aren’t we criticizing the elephant hunter who shoots ivory at anything under 80 pounds or the crocodile hunter that shoots anything under 15 foot or for that matter anyone that shoots a duiker because any duiker with horns is a trophy. Same goes for the deer and antelope species. If we had this mindset back here in the States, then no one should ever kill a deer unless it was 6 and ½ years old. Take my word for it, that would mean almost no one would ever kill a deer. In short, if it’s good for a buffalo, why isn’t it good for a warthog?

3. The conservation argument – I’ve often see the criticism of taking immature animals come under the guise of conservation. Yes, we are all for conserving the resource, but except in a few rare cases with a few very specific species such as lion, taking an animal a few years early has little affect on the overall health of a large population of game animals, especially in Africa. I’m sorry, but someone is going to have to convince me that taking a soft horned buffalo in the Selous, given the number of animals found there, matters one bit at all to the conservation of the species. I tend to believe that the trophy fee to the area for that soft buffalo will do 100 times more good from a conservation standpoint than going home without a buffalo because you can’t find the perfectly aged animal. So unless there is really hard evidence to back it up, lets not beat each other up with the conservation stick.

In summary, I think we should try to remember what makes a successful hunt and what makes a trophy. It sounds cliché to say here that a hunt is more about the memories than the animal, but maybe it needs to be said more often. Like most of us, some of my most cherish memories, the ones that you go back to in your head when you are stuck in an MRI machine or at an school concert, are the ones that usually involved an average animal at best. And when we get on our high horse about someone else’s “immature” trophy, we cheapen the experience for all of us.

So, all that being said, I’m coming out of the closet with a personal revelation that I have been holding back for months because of some of the critical buffalo threads on this forum. I’m 50 years old, have hunting around the world including Africa twice, and yes, I was ashamed to show my trophy for fear of the kind of negativism I’ve seen here. I assume that I'm not the only one that has had these feelings in the past. But I’m over that now, so he goes. This year while hunting in the Caprivi, I took the largest bodied buffalo from a group of about 50 after a 15 kilometer hike, a makuru ride, a 2 hour stalk on hands and knees and 4 good shoulder shots. It was perhaps the most exciting and memorable day of hunting that I ever had and yes, the boss was a little soft. To me it is a great trophy and always will be. Don’t like my trophy? Tough!




"I envy not him that eats better meat than I do; nor him that is richer, or that wears better clothes than I do; I envy him, and him only, that kills bigger deer than I do." Izaak Walton (modified)
 
Posts: 282 | Registered: 01 July 2005Reply With Quote
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clap beer


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Posts: 1378 | Location: Virginia, USA | Registered: 05 March 2005Reply With Quote
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salute jumping lol thumb diggin

OK GET THE IDEA, I AM TOTALLY IN AGREEMENT,

I have hunted mature animals, trophy animals, females and young males ,

I ENJOYED HUNTING ALL OF THEM


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Posts: 512 | Location: South Africa, Mozambique, USA,  | Registered: 09 November 2003Reply With Quote
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Dear Mr. Krause,

You beat me to it in many ways: You posted first and very well argued - better than I could reasonably hope to do.

I do think that anyone who wants to be a "trophy hunter" should set high goals to hunt only animals that are past breeding age. But me, I'm just a hunter; with absolutely no desire to be regarded as a great "trophy hunter" at all. Sure, any good PH should be able to identify "past breeding age" individuals, and should be able to quite accurately judge horn length! I personally hunt for meat - and therefore often shoot by choice very young and immature animals, or very old females, or whicever one presents a good shot.

In my 50 years of hunting the one hunt that stand out as the most enjoyed by far resulted in this animal!



I will echo G L Krause's words: Don't like my trophy? Tough!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren
 
Posts: 1799 | Location: Soutpan, Free State, South Africa | Registered: 19 January 2004Reply With Quote
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a trophy, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. if it is legal, enjoy the moment


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Posts: 13608 | Location: Georgia | Registered: 28 October 2006Reply With Quote
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Good points.
Some, but not all, of us reach a point where we would feel worse about ending the life of a critter that had a lot of living left in it than we would if we didn't fill our tag.
I enjoy hunting whitetail deer on my place. If others are allowed to hunt, I give them my simplified definition of a mature buck--antlers outside ears. The number of forked-horns with a 8 inch spread that seemed to fit this definition is amazing. But it is still better, IMO, to praise that hunter than to criticize him for not following my rules.
Also, many tags/licenses allow for only one of a species, and if we shoot a young one, two things are certain:
1) The tag is filled, even if a monster steps out a few moments later.
2) The dead animal will never reach its max potential.

Although your buff may have a small soft area, he's big enough and old enough to be classed as a mature trophy, IMO. I would sure take him.


Steve
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Posts: 8100 | Location: NW Arkansas | Registered: 09 July 2005Reply With Quote
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Mr. Krause, while I do not agree with you, I never criticize others because we disagree on philosophy.

We all hunt for our own reasons with our own personal code.


Jim "Bwana Umfundi"
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Posts: 3014 | Location: State Of Jefferson | Registered: 27 March 2002Reply With Quote
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Hopefully we all hunt for that sense of heightened awareness during the still hunt or stalk; the experience of being wild places with a gun, not a camera; the excitement right before and after the shot. The real treasures afterwards are our memories, the trophies just serve to jog them ...

My two cents,

Chuck


Regards,

Chuck



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Posts: 4800 | Location: Colorado Springs | Registered: 01 January 2008Reply With Quote
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FWIW, chuck375,I think that being in a wild place with a camera counts for the same experience as being there with a gun. Possibly the trophies photographed could be just as meaningful and satisfying as those shot with your rifle. Dr.C


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Posts: 411 | Registered: 16 November 2006Reply With Quote
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It's chilly here, and the memories of my buff hunt two years ago keep me warm at night.

Only seven days, a decent Selous buffalo, and seven of the happiest, most rewarding days I've ever spent in my life, and believe me, I've had plenty of them.
 
Posts: 11729 | Location: Florida | Registered: 25 October 2006Reply With Quote
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That was too well written to be a rant. And I agree with you, but I also see the point of taking the oldest in some situations.
As for your Buffalo, I too would have shot it and been extremely happy.
 
Posts: 4837 | Location: South Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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First, nice Buff GL.

It is not my intent to disagree with your extensive statement of opinion. However, they are just that and I want to point out a few things that I've noticed in these threads. This is the African Big Game Hunting forum. If I want to hear about Whitetails, I'll go over to another forum; I don't. I'm glad you've been to Africa twice and hope you want and get the opportunity to go back many times. There are many of us here who have 6x, 8x, 10x or more safari experience than you, so I hope you will grant that our perspective may be somewhat different than yours. I don't mean better, just different, as opinions are formed by experience and some of us have more than you, at least in Africa. Nobody I know travels to Africa for a meat hunt. Last I checked we can't bring it home, although I do demand backstrap steaks at dinner from almost everything I kill there. clap

I think it can be safely said that a request for a representative animal is still a request for what will be a trophy to that particular hunter. My first Buff is not dissimilar to yours. He was only viewed from behind along with 4 other bulls who knew we were there and wanted to get as far away from us as possible. I shot him going away and was very proud of him, but I soon learned what a green Buff was and determined not to take another. That does not diminish the thrill and experience of taking that first Buff. I've since killed a number of Buff including a 43" mature bull and another I took with a handgun and one old dagga boy who was so worn down I never measured him and some others. Somewhere along the line I believe I've come to understand some things about Buff and Lion and various other African species. I became an Official Measurer many years ago (RW & SCI) and I'm pretty good at judging trophy quality of many species, which is very different in Africa than in NA.

Points I'm trying to make, and maybe not so well, are:
1. Don't try to compare African hunting w/NA.
2. Determining mature/trophy animals in NA is relatively easy - count the points - but not so in Africa where every inch can make a difference
3. A mature Buff is not determined solely by inches.
4. A 15' Croc is a monster anywhere, as is an 80# Ele nowadays. These are well beyond minimum for trophy animals.
5. The SCI minimums are the most accepted standards worldwide, like it or not.
6. Any good PH will always try to get you the best animal possible and won't settle for "representative" unless there is no alternative.
7. Conservation of Lion is a real issue, because nobody wants a Lion w/out the MGM look
8. Conservation of Buff, although less critical, is also an issue.


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Posts: 3577 | Location: Silicon Valley | Registered: 19 November 2008Reply With Quote
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As for buff, it really doesn't matter much whether they have hairy horns or not as to the future of the herds. It is mostly over-shooting the buff, or anything else, that is detrimental.

Shooting younger bulls is usually as result of the situation where there are not enough old bulls for the quota allowed, or when the last hour of the last day comes along, bang goes the younger bull.

The last hour of the last day thing is what came down on my first buff. Sure I would have rather had the old moss back that stepped out when the rest of the crew went for the vehicle, but I don't lose any sleep over it.


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Posts: 19380 | Location: Ocala Flats | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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GL and Andrew, spot on! Big Grin

GL, nice buff, I'd have shot him in a heart beat.

Mad Dog
 
Posts: 1184 | Location: Indiana | Registered: 17 June 2002Reply With Quote
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LionHunter, thanks for your well thought response and it shows we can be civil here when we want to be. I would however like to respond to a couple of points that you have made.

1. Don't try to compare African hunting w/NA.

I'm not trying to. I'm just pointing out that the mindset I have discussed is found both in Africa and NA, especially in deer hunting in the U.S. And while I think it is good to a degree, I believe it becomes damaging to our sport when espressed as it has been here. This doesn't include your very respectful reply.

2. Determining mature/trophy animals in NA is relatively easy - count the points - but not so in Africa where every inch can make a difference

I have to disagree. Judging the difference between a 3 and 1/2 year old buck and a 6 and 1/2 year old buck can be very difficult, especially in hunting conditions. And the # of points will often be the same or even less on the older animal.

4. A 15' Croc is a monster anywhere, as is an 80# Ele nowadays. These are well beyond minimum for trophy animals.

That's exactly my point. Why do we say a 38 inch buffalo needs to be mature (hard boss, etc) before we shoot, but nobody is criticizing the elephant hunters on the site for shooting a nice representative 35 or 40 pounder (something I would do by the way)? Why aren't we telling those elephant hunters that they shouldn't take a prime breeding animal that has only grown half it's potential ivory? In cases like this aren't we being hypocritical and saying it's OK to take an immature animal if we just don't want to wait all those years for it to get mature? Same goes for crocodile.

5. The SCI minimums are the most accepted standards worldwide, like it or not.

I didn't really mention anything about SCI or the books, but you are right, these standards are accepted worldwide. What does this have to do with my post about what makes a trophy? In fact, using SCI standards, my buffalo might make the book but would get criticism here just the same.

6. Any good PH will always try to get you the best animal possible and won't settle for "representative" unless there is no alternative.

Agreed, but the hunter that simply wants to take representative animals and not spend an entire hunt pursuing a single species should not be criticized or made to feel that he/she didn't deserve to take that trophy or that they didn't really hunt for it. It's all personal choice and let's not forget why we are out there after all, for fun.



"I envy not him that eats better meat than I do; nor him that is richer, or that wears better clothes than I do; I envy him, and him only, that kills bigger deer than I do." Izaak Walton (modified)
 
Posts: 282 | Registered: 01 July 2005Reply With Quote
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Hunting is like poker: If I'm playing with your money I'll play your way. If I'm playing with my money and want to chase a gut-shot straight, it's my money, long as I'm not cheating.


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Posts: 11019 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: 09 December 2007Reply With Quote
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Good job GL I argree 100%.

As far as SCI being the standard sure maybe a standard to some. But your beloved lion has a special place in the SCI books for the canned lion hunters out there of SA. The pictures of these so called trophies dont lie, and this is the sort of thing that really disgusts you big time African conservationalists that push for harvesting mature animals. So if you "conservationalists" want to use SCI as your benchmark of whats right and wrong when it comes to taking mature animals, have at it.

Also thats pretty funny when someone says its easy to judge a NA mature/trophy animal just count the points. LOL you need not say anything more to prove how foolish and out of touch with reality you really are.
 
Posts: 257 | Registered: 17 July 2006Reply With Quote
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GL,

While I don't agree with you on this subject, your post is well reasoned and makes a good argument.

I long ago lost the desire to kill AN animal, I get my enjoyment out of killing THE animal. I set standards for myself and they usually are based on the animal's age. In some cases I set inch requirements. In Zim I was after a 40" sable, we saw a couple that the PH said were around 38", but no 40"s. I went home without a sable and have no regrets. I hunted hard and had a great time, but at the end of the day the bush didn't give me the sable I was looking for. The next hunter in camp shot a 44" sable. killpc That's hunting!

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, I just wanted to explain how I view the issue.

Good Hunting!


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Posts: 3530 | Location: Wyoming | Registered: 25 February 2005Reply With Quote
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Back in 91 when I first hunted in Africa most everyone wanted a herd bull. Many of these(most) are to one etent or the other, immature by todays trophy standards.
Seems to me things changed when hunting africa reached epidemic proportions and the outfitters realized that if hunters shot all the young bulls and predators ate the old ones the best hunt in the world would become very limited in available.
Hence the verbage about taking just the old warriors who have so much experience roaming the wilds of the Zambezi etc.
So, the outfitters have to balance maintaining a proper shootable population with sending a client home without a buff. Either of these scenarios taken to the etreme is counterproductive.
During my seversl trips to Africa I have taken 4 buff. Of these the first two were some what immature and the last two fully mature. Times have changed and so have my ideas and expectations. I suppose others have had similar progressions. Just my thoughts.
 
Posts: 414 | Location: Tennille, Ga | Registered: 29 December 2006Reply With Quote
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Well spoken Mr. Kraus, thank you for a well thought out and worded post, I only wish I could have put that post together as well.

I feel the same way about what you have put to words. I see the same thing on the shows and videos I watch also. Most of these views are held by people that have considerable experience. Most have shot many Buffalo or Kudu or Deer, I bet when they had less experience they didn't feel the same way. But after killing many deer ( I have extremely limited African experience, only 1 trip ) I am not near as blood thirsty as I used to be and pass many bucks that I would have proudly shot 20 years ago. With experience comes change, I just feel it is hypocritical to hold newcommers to the "Trophy" level that the old hands hold themselves to. I also think it hurts new hunter recruitment to expect new hunters to hold out so long to take game. I know it is hurtful to new hunters to deride them for taking an animal that is not up to some "fictitional" trophy standard.
 
Posts: 42463 | Location: Crosby and Barksdale, Texas | Registered: 18 September 2006Reply With Quote
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Should hunters only take mature animals? In most cases yes, but if someone is on a management hunt and had a good time and wanted to show others pictures of the hunt, why not.

The point is, "management". If you only want trophy animals, good for you, if you want to forget about the "tape" and help manage animal population, good for you too.

Let's stop trying to impose our own personal opinions on others and support animal management in Africa or B.F.E
 
Posts: 159 | Location: Arizona | Registered: 12 February 2007Reply With Quote
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The anonymity of the internet lends bravery to those who would normally not posses it. Controversial statements posted here would never be uttered face to face.

I may not agree, or even approve, but I tend to follow the advise of Elenore Roosevelt. "When in doubt of how to act, act decent."

I will leave it to the "brave" to criticize.
 
Posts: 6273 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: 13 July 2001Reply With Quote
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I agree with those here who have stated that as we as hunters gain experience we up our standards as to the size of the animal we will harvest. That is all well and good but I don't think we should be extending those standards to others with less hunting experience except in rare cases that show a need for such management restrictions such as African lions. Let the Game Departments decide what is legal for the species and location. As long as a hunter or PH follows these restrictions who are we to critize anothers choice?

465H&H
 
Posts: 5686 | Location: Nampa, Idaho | Registered: 10 February 2005Reply With Quote
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I agree with most that has been said. I don't see much "trophy bashing" at all going on on threads. Most of the time, it is always civil and a genuine attempt is made to "educate" about the differences. But one has to be prepared to listen in order to learn.

I don't think there is a hunter alive who can claim that they never took an immature animal in their life? But I would like to believe that with more experience, they change their personal expectations by wanting to take older animals. thumb


"...Them, they were Giants!"
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Posts: 3035 | Location: Tanzania - The Land of Plenty | Registered: 19 September 2003Reply With Quote
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Three cheers to G.L. Krause!

Have you noticed on all of the "Joe kills a deer while Fred runs the camera" TV shows that the very modest deer the hunter often ends up taking (because it was the only thing that presented itself in a way that the camera could catch the kill) is always described as "mature", no matter what its age. It seems that "maturity" has become a substitute for size, so if the animal you kill is not very big, then it is acceptable to justify it as an appropriate trophy because it was "mature". Nowadays, any whitetail buck that is not particularly large is labelled a "management buck" to justify its lesser size. It is more accurate to say that a "management buck" is a buck that someone managed to shoot Wink.

It is a myth that there are many "mature" males that are "past breeding age". Very few males live long enough to reach that point (other than human males Big Grin), and besides, is there some notion that if a male that is still capable of inseminating females is killed that it will somehow diminsh the reproductive potential of the herd? Tell that to the fifty lesser males waiting in line for a chance to breed JUST ONE of the females!

There is nothing wrong with choosing older, more mature animals over younger ones as your prefered target. There are animals which have reached their full horn/antler potential and for which there is no inches/points benefit to waiting another year for them to grow bigger; just as there are animals which will indeed be a more impressive specimans given a little more time. However, most hunters (and many guides) are not capable under many circumstances of light, distance, and limits of time, to reliably judge which category an animal may fall into.

Each hunter has his or her own personal concept of "trophy". Let's leave each to his own judgement and standards.
 
Posts: 13266 | Location: Henly, TX, USA | Registered: 04 April 2001Reply With Quote
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G L makes his point very well and clearly. I agree with his position.

Some have mentioned a fairly common transition among hunters from shooting the first legal animal to setting some personal goal of only harvesting an animal if it meets "X" standard. I think most of us go through this transition, and I include myself in that group.

Lately, however, I find I have gone one step further. (To some it may be backward.) I've stopped caring about trophy size or even "maturity" with some of the species I hunt. (On some species, I am still hung up on trophy size - nobody says these personal transitions are entirely logical!) I try to hunt for the joy of the hunt, and if an animal satisfies my particular whim at the moment, I pull the trigger or release the arrow. I don't mean this in a capricious sense, and I don't think I'm "bloodthirsty". Simply put I can still find the joy when shooting animals of a variety of sizes. I love to hunt. Simple enough.

Please don't think I don't enjoy great trophy quality. I have pursued only the best trophies on certain hunts somewhat relentlessly. Sometimes to the point of taking the fun out of the hunt. But for the most part, I'm not obsessed with inches or even age. Maybe as I continue to mature it will matter even less. The quality of the experience matters far more. I feel sorry for those who seem so wrapped up in SCI minimums awards that they miss the point of the trip.

Bill
 
Posts: 1090 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA | Registered: 19 March 2002Reply With Quote
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This is a marvelous post. And a facinating topic. Just for fun, perhaps a different perspective...I'm 67 years old, 6' 215 lbs, had a shoulder rebuilt, knee rebuilt, wear glasses and hearing aids..a reasonably fast third grade girl can outrun me and a less than competant middle weight could probably beat the snot out of me...sometimes I have a hard time remembering why I came into the room ....When I was 30 years old I was 6'1" tall, weighed the same 210 lbs [but it really wasn't the same] while not really fast, I was a whole lot faster than now, could hear pretty good, had 20/15 vision.... Now, lets say an alien hunter comes to earth for a trophy human...am I the best trophy now? or 37 years ago? Well, I assure you, I woulda been a whole lot harder to kill then than now.

The whitetail I killed last year had a 23" spread and tines about five inches long..and he was so old he could hardly get around..No way to know, but from the way he acted I don't think he could hear or see very well..had I not shot him, likely the coyotes would have had him before winters end. Was he as good trophy wise as a 5 year old buck in his prime? For me, I shot him...but I would have shot the five year old buck had I the opportunity. And glad to have the opportunity for either!
 
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quote:


So, all that being said, I’m coming out of the closet with a personal revelation that I have been holding back for months because of some of the critical buffalo threads on this forum. I’m This year while hunting in the Caprivi, I took the largest bodied buffalo from a group of about 50 after a 15 kilometer hike, a makuru ride, a 2 hour stalk on hands and knees and 4 good shoulder shots. It was perhaps the most exciting and memorable day of hunting that I ever had and yes, the boss was a little soft. To me it is a great trophy and always will be. Don’t like my trophy? Tough!



As a Hunter Education Instructor here in Arizona, I try to teach kids that having a successful hunt has nothing to do with taking a trophy home no matter what continent you hunt. It's being safe, having fun, (not being at work)and enjoying your time in the field. And that if their first animal is smaller, it's still a trophy...no matter if they are 12 or 50 years old. I have personally had great hunts and been skunked. I've also had hunts that I took my animal the first morning because it was too good to pass up and had to go home early(which sucks if you took a week vacation) with the cape and meat. Those hunt weren't as good.

We all have our own personal rules we hunt by in respect to taking an animal. You know what yours are. And if you took it legally and ethicly, it sould be a trophy to you. Show your animals off to people and tell them about your experiences not the scores. I would much rather hear about a hunt that the tale of the tape.

Now I would like to hear more about the hunt for this buff.....sounds like a great hunt.


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Posts: 933 | Location: Casa Grande, AZ | Registered: 11 June 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by chuck375:
Hopefully we all hunt for that sense of heightened awareness during the still hunt or stalk; the experience of being wild places with a gun, not a camera; the excitement right before and after the shot. The real treasures afterwards are our memories, the trophies just serve to jog them ...

My two cents,

Chuck


Can't agree with you on that one Chuck.

I've been to Africa many times, both with and without a rifle.

Getting close, really close, to elephant (the jesse was too thick to tell how many) in Botswana and Hippo in Zambia with nothing but a camera and no guide or PH was pretty fucking exciting for me. I have never felt so alive.

The photos I have are my trophies.

Trust me, the experience was not diminished because I was unarmed (does a knife count?), in fact it was the complete opposite.
 
Posts: 1224 | Location: Western Australia | Registered: 31 July 2006Reply With Quote
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I'm sure that would be exciting as well, in no way did I mean to lessen the value or excitement of a photographic safari. I just find myself to be quieter and more aware when I'm hunting. It's a personal thing I'm sure ...

Smiler

Chuck


Regards,

Chuck



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Posts: 4800 | Location: Colorado Springs | Registered: 01 January 2008Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by chuck375:
I'm sure that would be exciting as well, in no way did I mean to lessen the value or excitement of a photographic safari. I just find myself to be quieter and more aware when I'm hunting. It's a personal thing I'm sure ...

Smiler

Chuck


I take your point Mate, however the incidents that I was talking about were certainly not a photographic safari.

I am often in the African bush in the course of business and sometimes bumping into some of the "locals" goes with the territory.

Whilst I am not there to specifically to photograph animals, a camera is always part of my kit, whilst a rifle often isn't. So if you run into something that bites or stomps (unarmed) it can be a "pants shitting experience". It is for me anyway.
 
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My Theory has always Been.

If its Brown its going Down.


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Posts: 1051 | Location: The Land of Lutefisk | Registered: 23 November 2002Reply With Quote
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I measure my trophies with memories, not tape measures. If someone feels my trophies don't meet his standards, then that's his problem.

Bill Quimby
 
Posts: 2633 | Location: tucson and greer arizona | Registered: 02 February 2006Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by billrquimby:
I measure my trophies with memories, not tape measures. If someone feels my trophies don't meet his standards, then that's his problem.

Bill Quimby


Thank you Bill.

This is how is should be.

To me, nothing sounds as silly as someone posting a report about his safari by "my gold medal kudu, my eland XYZ SCI points, my ego is ...." and so on.

We never even bother to measure anything any more.


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Posts: 69283 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Saeed:
quote:
Originally posted by billrquimby:
I measure my trophies with memories, not tape measures. If someone feels my trophies don't meet his standards, then that's his problem.

Bill Quimby


Thank you Bill.

This is how is should be.

To me, nothing sounds as silly as someone posting a report about his safari by "my gold medal kudu, my eland XYZ SCI points, my ego is ...." and so on.

We never even bother to measure anything any more.


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Posts: 3071 | Registered: 29 October 2005Reply With Quote
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Editing the SCI record books for most of seventeen years showed me just how low some people will stoop, just to get their names higher up on a list.

Bill Quimby
 
Posts: 2633 | Location: tucson and greer arizona | Registered: 02 February 2006Reply With Quote
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Me too. As a measurer, I've had a few dodgy trophies bought to me over the years. The worst was a person who had bought a tigress skull at a country house auction and knowing it was a tigress skull (it was described as such in the auction catalogue) bought it to me as a leopard skull and tried to get me to enter it as a new number one.

I'm glad to say I was able to suss her out and consequently turned her down.






 
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quote:
Originally posted by billrquimby:
... how low some people will stoop, just to get their names higher up on a list.
Bill Quimby


Bill

You bet! Try 43 rounds fired to get a good Red Duiker as it was outstanding on "the list" and no trophy. The hunter was permanently half drunk, ignored every rule in the book and the PH eventually lied to him and said "You got him, let me go and finish him off" running into the forest and shooting another duiker for him a little way off. Everybody happy and he's out of there ...


Johan
 
Posts: 506 | Registered: 29 May 2006Reply With Quote
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This is a great thread; good solid argument from all sides......

The problem is that nowdays much of the reason for all this "soul searching" does not emanate from our own principals as hunter-conservationists, based on values inherited from our fathers, uncles and grand dads.

No, it's more as a knee-jerk reaction to the anti-hunting brigade, and we are too guilty of perpetuating it by self (and non-self) analysis in the extreme. Please read my foot-note about the reaon I hunt Wink


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Posts: 441 | Location: Randfontein, South Africa | Registered: 07 January 2008Reply With Quote
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Steve/Johan:

The incidents you describe are awful, but how about buying a small zoo, shooting its exhibits, and submitting their scores to a record book?

... Or stealing antlers from a taxidermy shop in Canada, and skillfully fitting them on a freshly killed whitetail for a "field photo" of a record buck in Mexico?

... Or using Photoshop to paste your face on a photo of someone else with a big blue wildebeest?

... Or claiming a bushbuck or sitatunga came from one area, when it was shot somewhere else a thousand miles away?

... Or rushing to Africa to execute a particular farm-raised buffalo or white rhino bought after seeing photos of the live animal at a hunting convention?

I can go on, but I won't.

Bill Quimby
 
Posts: 2633 | Location: tucson and greer arizona | Registered: 02 February 2006Reply With Quote
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