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One of Us![]() |
I will just make this one last statement. I am in the same camp as Saeed. I would not shoot a collared ele...especially not today. The PH I hunt with feels the same but I won’t speak for him. I also feel reasonably sure that in that situation he would be looking for a collar and note it if it were there. The above are my own personal ethical believes. The rub that affects us all is this: If the Zim guys want the US market back in entirety...it will mean reversing the import suspensions. I can assure you 100% guaranteed that shooting this bull and like...is 100 steps backwards in reversing those suspensions. The anti lobbying orgs are POWERFUL. At this particular time...this shoot was the shot-in-the-arm they wanted and they will exploit it. We ourselves are going to have to change tactics or we will become a chapter in history sooner rather than later. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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One of Us |
Buzz, in today's environment I would not knowingly shoot a collared animal. Not because of ethics but just for the backlash that would ensue that is damaging for us all. But, as you point out, isn't it often difficult to determine an animal is collared? I have hunted Naivasha and I have no doubt they could not see the collar until the elephant was on the ground. Hell, I had a very difficult time just seeing the shoulder of my buffalo in May. My point is, couldn't such a law expose the PH and hunter to legal repercussions if a mistake was made? No offense, but I don't think I would want to find myself at the mercy of the Zimbabwean judicial system. NRA benefactor life member SCI life member DSC life member | |||
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One of Us |
I did a hunt 2 years ago with a client in one of the APNR reserves that have a open border with the Kruger park, ONE morning hot on the trail of 8 buffalo bulls one of the bulls got taken by lions it must have happened while we where less than 5 minutes behind them, we walk up on it and watch them feed maybe for a hour I had my regular camera man with me, months later we were sitting editing hunts of the season and that clip came up, to our big surprise we noticed one of the female lions had a collar on we only saw it 3 months after the hunt while editing, nether me my client anyone of the trackers or the APNRs representative noticed it while we were watching them feeding on that buffalo... we ended up shooting a big buff out of that same group couple hours later what a memorable hunt!! however months later watching that footage it dawned on me how Easily a mistake can be made on collared animals and this was a female lion not even a male. I am sure in 90% of the cases if a collared animal is shot it is a honest mistake. The last thing on my mind watching those cats feed was looking for a collared lion... Phillip du Plessis www.intrepidsafaris.com info@intrepidsafaris.co.za +27 83 633 5197 US cell 817 793 5168 | |||
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One of Us |
Agreed. STAY IN THE FIGHT! | |||
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One of Us![]() |
If 14 million ducks banded with 2 million returns = 14% rate, not 4%. Sleep thru math class? Info from USFWS bird band lab. Have no idea about Mid East returns. | |||
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One of Us |
That is exactly the problem with making it illegal to shoot a collared animal. I know someone with a someone similar situation with a black bear. He has hundreds of pictures of it on a trail cam. Never noticed a thing until one day......... | |||
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One of Us |
I have deleted my post on this topic. Why, there has been presented to me that there is a preponderance of th evidence that Martin Pieters is telling the truth. This does not come from him but a professional I consider his better. In my mind he owes this man his last lace of reputation. I apologize to Martin Pieters because for my posts because the facts are disputed and cannot separated. I make this plea to everyone. We are being judged by anti hunters and non hunters alike. Our actions balance hunting on a pivot point. We live in a different environment than we did even in 2006. We have lost two greater premier pieces of wild Africa. Those being half the Selous and the Zambezi River blocks this month. We are one bad actor away from being told we are not the stewards of the land and animal we profess. We have to and the animals and habbitat need that we engage our non hunting counter parts with an open hand. Those who hold concessions boardering these National parks have to, and I believe most do, engage in a broader conservation strategy. Hunting nation-states appear to be starving for the US market. The US government is as much the consumer as the individual US hunter. The seller African nation-states, regional professional hunting associations, and concession holders must move and insure the consumer (US Government) is satisfied. If that means allowing the US to independently verify the number of, age of acertain speicies of an animal, then the response has to be and should have been yes sir. I do not trust the host nation-states’s animal count either. If that means communicating and insuring research animals coming out of a National Park are not shot. The response should be yes sir. If that means setting up so,e program that allows the US to verify where every penny that was collected to hunt that animals goes, then the response should be tell us how. It is not fair, but I was taught that fair has nothing to do in this world. The US market will not come back without a mindset change by the providers to the market. The world does not care if a banned duck is shot. The scientific community does care when a resource elephant is shot. We have to court and deal with that community. I had no objection to the 120 pounder being shot. He was not collard. It was also never alleged that the National Park holder asked the Outfitter not to target him. The poor old man had to had only one tooth left in that sunken head. He was hunted hard and fair. The differences between these two elephants are obvious. | |||
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One of Us![]() |
What ever happen to; wait until the facts are established, before you put things in print or speak. With today internet, it appears that the bucket of tar is always on boil with a massive pile of feathers sitting close by. Just so, that someone can be the first to tar and feather and individual without knowing the facts on a subject. The group here is no better than the anti-hunting sites or blogs when statements occur/supplied on the site short of any facts to support their statement/posts. Hunters advise anti hunter to look at the facts, before making comments, what is happening at this point. How are we different, Oh, I know you tell me so, so that make it right. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "You've got the strongest hand in the world. That's right. Your hand. The hand that marks the ballot. The hand that pulls the voting lever. Use it, will you" John Wayne | |||
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one of us |
I am sure most everyone here was shocked reading that.I wonder how that statement came about? | |||
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One of Us |
Yes Sir. There is a lot of truth in that statement! . | |||
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One of Us |
Over a period of 58 years ...... " since 1960 to date" ....total 2 million returns ... divide that by 58 years ..... average of 4% per year | |||
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One of Us |
Make the fine on a collared animal $20 000 to the Ph and make the trophy Non exportable. In that way the fine is certainly a serious blow for any PH and if a PH should have a client with no scruples he would not be tempted to pay the fine plus a little " bonus" as he would not get the trophy anyway. | |||
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One of Us![]() |
Thats fine Buzz but there has also to be restrictions on the number of elephant collared and maybe the policy should be that the bigger bulls are not collared as it conflicts with safari hunting? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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One of Us![]() |
Lane, I have received "the truth" from you:
Lane, Since your accusations the following has been posted on the same topic: By the operator on the hunt "Martin Pieters":
By the ZPHGA:
By Buzz Charlton Quoting Frankfort Zoological Society:
It seems to me the time for a PM was when you made the accusations if all of the above is true and your "information" is incorrect. These are more than salacious accusations if untrue. If the statements of Martin Pieters, ZPHGA and Buzz Charlton are true, you are literally breaking the 9th commandment. If they are being disingenuous, they are enabling the further destruction of the cause everyone here is discussing. You did not post your accusations on a PM, so please do not hide their now. I did not join a PM in this discussion, so I will not either. I am interested in hearing your further comments.... | |||
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One of Us![]() |
Brad, It is in our (hunters) best interest to let this go away at this point...the damage is already done. Since you are revealing that you are disingenuous enough to make public a polite PM...I certainly don’t care to engage with the likes of you in a public forum monitored by many anti-hunting groups. ![]() ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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One of Us![]() |
The person who originally posted the accusations on a public forum is now stating that silence is in "our (hunters) best interest"? And who is "disingenouos"? Do me a favor Lane, don't send me anymore "polite PM's", I do not have any interest in your middle school antics. Thank You | |||
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One of Us![]() |
Brad, How about I do as I see fit. ![]() ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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One of Us |
If the anti hunters knew how scared hunters are of a collar I would imagine they will start collaring more animals and make them harder to see. All we can do is hunt in an ethical and legal way. If that’s not good enough well I guess we’re done. This particular hunt has nothing to do with ethics btw. | |||
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Administrator |
Wasn’t this professional hunter involved in another collared elephant shoot before?? | |||
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One of Us |
Circulating around some us old bullets:
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One of Us |
Since legal action such as license revocation has to be based on breaking the law- and this action was PERHAPS unethical but not illegal- nothing will happen. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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Administrator |
Thank you for posting this here. | |||
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One of Us![]() |
Who wrote the above? | |||
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One of Us![]() |
Thank you Buzz. I've walked enough miles with MP to know he wouldn't have knowingly had a client shoot a collared ele in today's environment. As to the prior post by someone who suggested PHs should know an ele of this size is in the area or concession: "Let's be logical about it. Whether the collar was visible or not, how many elephants with that size ivory are running around? Aren't the phs intimately familiar with the land and especially if there was a very large elephant nearby. I don't know, hard to believe in real honest mistakes these days with all of the technology available to us. Easy to see as a hunting community how we invite criticism and anger." Elephants cross concession, national park and country borders routinely. In many cases they probably walk more on a daily basis than your ass typically drives in a day. Fortunately there are still surprises in today's Africa, and at that time of year the bush is thick and mistakes, although legal, can be made .... JEB Katy, TX Already I was beginning to fall into the African way of thinking: That if you properly respect what you are after, and shoot it cleanly and on the animal's terrain, if you imprison in your mind all the wonder of the day from sky to smell to breeze to flowers—then you have not merely killed an animal. You have lent immortality to a beast you have killed because you loved him and wanted him forever so that you could always recapture the day - Robert Ruark DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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One of Us![]() |
Using the phrase “ethical conduct” and Martin Pieters together is like discussing tall dwarves or short giants- they don’t go together. After the bait-and-switch scam of the Drazen brothers and failure to refund agreed upon overcharges, I just can’t accept his word at face value. Now that it turns out he shot another collared elephant in 2010 and reused the same “I didn’t see the collar” alibi, I believe him as much as I believe Hitlery or Bill Clinton. Jesus saves, but Moses invests | |||
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One of Us![]() |
Quote - I implore everyone on this group to take action and individually write to ZPHGA asking what disciplinary action they will be taking and to the DG of parks requesting for his license to be withdrawn. There you have it Bud and if you want you should forward your concerns directly to ZPHGA ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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One of Us |
I have no dog in this fight and will not pass an opinion on the matter as I WAS NOT THERE AND DO NOT KNOW WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. I do know Martin and have shared camp with him once and I really enjoyed his company. Beyond this matter, I am astounded as to how so many have passed judgement (and strongly so) purely on hearsay, some of it from the antis. Had they been hunting Kudu (for example) and they found a bull with his head partly obscured and the PH could see both bases and what he thought were two tips that represented a grand trophy and the animal was shot, only to find the bull only had one horn...... genuine mistake - PH apologises and it's put down as a lesson learnt - end of story!!! Yes this is different in that it is potentially an iconic animal but the principle remains. I have made these mistakes and I have shared many a fantastic campfire listening to PH's and "clients" who have recalled genuine mistakes, which at the end of the story have resulted in a good laugh!!! At what point did most of us become super human, that have never made an honest mistake! I repeat, I am not defending MP as I don't know the actual facts but I do know that genuine honest mistakes absolutely do happen!! | |||
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One of Us![]() |
I repeat. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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One of Us![]() |
If I remember correct the 2010 ele with a collar was with a longstanding respected member here that said he never saw the collar. I believe that to be true 100%. No wrong/illegal was done on this hunt I would say move on gentlemen. | |||
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One of Us |
The head of the ZPHGA is a personal friend of mine. I made contact with him. He confirms that this was legal. He also confirms that this is Martin's second such incident and that the industry is taking some heat for it. Definitely not a good thing for Zimbabwe, especially these days. | |||
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One of Us![]() |
. Am sitting in Harare on way out after a buff / ele hunt in Sengwe with Mokore which finished this morning. We saw something like 100 plus ele up close. I can honestly say that the bush was so thick and dense that out of the 100 we probably only saw 8-10 fully and clearly enough to see the full head and neck. I guess it's easy to have an opinion in front of a computer screen. On the ground in the thick bush it is different. Congrats to the hunter and PH on a magnificent trophy bull. Unfortunate that the bull was collared and the collar not seen. My 2 cents. . "Up the ladders and down the snakes!" | |||
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One of Us |
I was wondering if this thread would exist if the bull had been a 40 pounder? Jeremy | |||
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One of Us![]() |
Not seeing something before shooting it is a pretty dangerous argument to make...think about that in all contexts. I would be reluctant to offer that up as defense...especially in today’s climate. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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One of Us |
+1 ![]() | |||
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One of Us![]() |
According to the PH's post, the legal and "ethical" killing of the collared 100-pound tusker adjacent to the world renown Gonarezhou National Park wasn't intentional (limited visibility due to thick foliage). Then the PH should, at a minimum, mitigate the ongoing "trophy" hunting public relations nightmare by donating the proceeds from the hunt (i.e. - daily fees, trophy fees, and his personal tip) to Gonarezhou National Park's ongoing anti-poaching initiatives and/or the Frankfurt Zoological Society's research program. (IMO) DSC Life Member HSC Life Member NRA Life Member SCI RMEF | |||
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One of Us |
So they did not see the collar or even the whole elephant. If they had a tag and the bull was legal by what they saw all good. How many times do you get to see all of any animal in thick bush. We keep worrying about if they have names and collars we are not standing for why we hunt. A collar or name should not make any animal off limits if it is on land that is legal to hunt. Once again we worry about what the people who hate hunting already will say instead of backing a legal hunt as far as all the details show as of now. | |||
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One of Us![]() |
+1 how quickly we forget DRSS Searcy 470 NE | |||
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One of Us![]() |
I hunt and make occasional mistake Thing is, I don’t wanna hunt if I have to look over my shoulder and worry what possibilities are there to accuse me of some form of wrong doing ... Antis will keep coming after us no matter what so screw them and let’s go hunting Funny thing about elephants in this particular area is there are too many and where is the limit and who will take care of the problem in future? If not for hunter and their responsible behavior, poachers move in and kill them all Frankfurters should be using part of their budget for feeding and employing many locals Do they do that but for few local employees? These pseudo researchers just make me sick for the fact they are hacks and will turn on hunters when time is right " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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one of us |
Safari areas sustain parks.Without the safari areas parks will turn into zoos. | |||
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One of Us |
This is so sad! It is one thing to spread false information but it is even worse to not retract it when shown to be false. The group you said called about the elephant is saying they did not. You both can not be right. In this particular discussion Lane you should not be talking about ethics. PM's should not be shared but in this situation I am glad 505 did share it. It shows the ethics of one of the original rumor spreaders who is trying to cover his tracks. ![]()
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