The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting 100lber taken in Zimbabwe's south east Lowvelt recently?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
With all of the discussion over "ethics", they still matter. I see no issue here from what has been presented, however, for those here that can see beyond the actual shooting - ethics and the methods we use matter greatly. In the USA, we tend to think that the individuals can make the decision based on whatever they think is legal or "fair". In reality, we do that at great peril to our sport or whatever else we think is "right". Ethics drive that discussion - whether it is shooting a pen raised quail or lion. It is legal, but is it ethical????? I am not saying that this hunt or Martin are unethical. In my experience, the Zim training for PH's weeds out the unethical. I have found the Zim PH's I have hunted with to be the ethical to the extreme. I support that, and so should we. | |||
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one of us |
Let's be logical about it. Whether the collar was visible or not, how many elephants with that size ivory are running around? Aren't the phs intimately familiar with the land and especially if there was a very large elephant nearby. I don't know, hard to believe in real honest mistakes these days with all of the technology available to us. Easy to see as a hunting community how we invite criticism and anger. | |||
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| One of Us |
The storm of controversy here is fascinating to me. We must simply take the American view of such matters and BAN ALL COLLARING of animals! Instantly the problem is solved... | |||
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One of Us |
What happened to the other 20lbs??? DRSS Searcy 470 NE | |||
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| Administrator |
the Zim training for PH's weeds out the unethical. The above statement is not correct. There have been a number of Zimbabwe professional hunters who have been nothing but crooks! You have been lucky, as many of us have, for hunting with decent people. | |||
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| One of Us |
I’m not understanding what the significance is of a collared animal? There are lots of places throughout the world where we hunt along said boundaries and if we are lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time and that animal crosses the boundary he’s fair game. Is this particular animal tame or someone’s pet? I honestly don’t get the problem? Perhaps I’ve missed some important info I’m not aware of? | |||
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| One of Us |
While I agree that this will likely stir controversy and agree that shooting collared animals this day and age, even if legal, brings down the thunder from the antis, I also believe Martin's account that they did not know the elephant was collared. I hunted Naivasha last May and know that, this time of year, the mopane would be very thick. Further, the communal area (Naivasha) shares a 33 km unfenced boundary with the park. Elephant and buffalo are commonly hunted there by following tracks crossing the boundary road into the hunting area. Further, this is an area known for elephants with big tusks. With 11,000 elephants in the park and in thick scrub, I am sure the PHs were not aware of all the heavy-tusked elephants that might be in the area. NRA benefactor life member SCI life member DSC life member | |||
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| One of Us |
I hunted the omay in I think 2016 when Pieters had it still.......there was an elephant hunter in the area, one of Pieters, there was word of a collared 70lbs that had left matusadona and they intentionally left it alone, they new exactly where he was. I am not taking up for Pieters, in any way, but that was what happened that time. And in the audience at that time a forty pounder would have been a monster! . | |||
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| One of Us |
If the animal was hunted in a fair chase method and was legally killed, then the collar is irrelevant IMO. Sometimes the hunter gets lucky and the animal screws up. That is part of nature and part of life. Hunters in the USA killed 100s of geese and ducks that have been collared. No big deal, just part of the sport. Congratulations to both the hunter and the PH! JMO BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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One of Us |
Been there It’s huge area and it borders Mozambique and SA Three NP and massive adjacent territories These big bulls can hide well, plus there is tons of elephants Look at the example of 120 pounder of couple of years ago Nobody knew of him until he got shot Frankfurters are nothing but well financed people who will turn on hunters on dime Do they provide local jobs and feed locals meat? " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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One of Us |
The Anti message is creeping in, even here. Guy shoots elephant and skepticism about ethics and legalities is what's talked about. What caliber was used? Brain shot? Is it now unethical to be successful? They have men who have hunted elephants questioning the legitimacy of a man hunting elephants. Bollocks | |||
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one of us |
Was it an American hunter? Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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One of Us |
Russian. Mike | |||
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| one of us |
https://www.facebook.com/pg/Fr...cal.Society/reviews/ Frankfurt Zoological Society Through a long-standing, successful partnership between the Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority and the Frankfurt Zoological Society, the elephant population in Gonarezhou has been well protected. With an estimated 11 000 elephants, at a density of more than 2 elephants/km2, Gonarezhou has one of the highest densities of elephants on the continent. As part of FZS’s support to ZPWMA, an elephant collaring exercise was carried out in 2009, and again in 2016 (Additional studies were also carried out by local research institutions). The aim of placing satellite collars on elephants in Gonarezhou, close to the Park boundaries, was primarily to achieve a better understanding of their movements, and the degree to which elephants are crossing out of the Park into the wider ecosystem - both to determine options for linkages to other protected areas within the Greater Limpopo Transfrontier Conservation Area as well as to pinpoint potential areas of conflict between elephants and human settlements outside the Park. Protecting elephants and their habitats is at the core of our conservation efforts, and the data gathered through the collaring exercise feeds directly into this process. There are no fences that prevents these animals from wandering outside the Park, and with the growing population of elephant inside Gonarezhou it is inevitable, and for the sake of conservation on a wider scale, even desirable, for elephants and other animals to move across the Park’s boundaries. One of these collared bulls were shot on a legal hunt in Naivasha in the first week of March. Naivasha is an area directly adjacent to Gonarezhou that has been set aside for wildlife and safari hunting by local communities. There is no law that protects a collared animal from being hunted in Zimbabwe, but there is general acceptance that the ethical position is that a hunter will avoid shooting an animal with a collar. The data from this bull has been captured and will help us with our ongoing efforts to find solutions, together with our local and international partners, to conservation questions in a world where the challenges to find space for wildlife and their habitats are becoming ever more complicated. Kathi kathi@wildtravel.net 708-425-3552 "The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page." | |||
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One of Us |
A non biased statement from FZS. As Martin has stated it was a mistake and maybe that is how we should leave it and move on. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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| One of Us |
I drew a CA Desert Bighorn permit in 2009. During the mandatory orientation class, the biologist explained to us that there were several mature rams that had collars and said: "If you see a big ram with a radio collar, it is perfectly fine to take that ram. Just please pack the collar out and return it to me. And be aware, sometimes the hair under the collar is rubbed off." And that's in CALIFORNIA for God's sake. By ANYONE'S estimation, the most politically correct state that even HAS a Desert Bighorn! | |||
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| one of us |
Where is the “Like” button! The purpose of collaring an animal is to study its life and habits and movement AND it’s mortality. So if an animal is killed by a hunter that is a valuable piece of data for a long term study. | |||
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| One of Us |
Never hunted elephants but have hunted in Zimbabwe. Don’t believe every thing you hear. I have read statements on here about what happened in Zim that was a bald faced lie. I was there. NRA Patron member | |||
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| One of Us |
On the collaring - I think it is more of a publicity issue that the elephant was part of a study and this brings attention to elephant hunting. Ducks and geese are banded as well. When they are shot, the hunter sends the data to the USFWS for research. Elephants are different and are being monitored for movement and habitat issues. Nothing unethical about shooting one, but would think to avoid it if possible. If a Russian hunter, then I fully understand this situation - having worked in the CIS many years.... | |||
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| One of Us |
+1 | |||
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One of Us |
Where is the accountability in this group? Some blatant accusations were made here that have now been directly controverted by those actually present. Will the poster of these accusations defend the statements or correct them and apologize to those accused and misinformed?
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| One of Us |
Once again hunters throwing each under the bus before even all the real details are known. It is scary how easy it is for some to think the worse right away. If it has a name or collar who cares if it is a legal area to hunt and done on the up and up then do it. I guess guys are not picking up on all the bs being thrown at us all. This wild elephant causes a scene and guys are ready to run for cover. Raised lion gets hunted guys run for cover. Why because some jerkoff makes a scene on facebook or some other place and hunter run with there tail between there legs. I wish some of you would decide on what is ok to hunt beside what you hunt so we all know what is ok to do. | |||
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One of Us |
One has to look no further than the "My ethics are superior to your Ethics" bunch to see this. Which is the EXACT problem with the debate between the legal vs ethics crowd in the first place. We all have our standard of ethics that we adhere to. Some are more strict than others. But when the most strict group starts chastising the least strict and demands them to abide by their standards, we have an issue. The law is there to provide the go / no go line. Cross it and pay consequences. The laws were generally conceived by a consensus of ethics in the first place, along with other considerations of course. I do suspect this will be another social media firestorm, but I suspect we should be focusing our attention on one nefarious Zim fellow who goes by the initials J.R. instead of looking to throw fellow hunters under the bus who are operating within the legalities of the law. | |||
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| One of Us |
As a memeber of the ethics committee, I do not think Marin Pieters has been vindicated. I hope, strongly, with every being hoe so. I will recant, apologize, and delete my post. However, if his statement is not independently confrimwd that the Outfitter was not made aware this bull have moved in the concession my condemnation stands. I do not trust M. Pieters. The last time he posted on this Forum, he was switching hunting areas on clients without notice or prior approval. | |||
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One of Us |
Reserve is overpopulated with 11000 elephants. Just collar another one. Not a big deal. | |||
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one of us |
My thought exactly, I could care less if the animal is collared and care less about those here who say it should be left alone because of political backlash. If it was a legal hunt and no rules broken, it is not a problem for me. | |||
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| one of us |
Thank you, agree fully. | |||
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| Administrator |
I am so glad they made this statement. But, is this not the second time Martin’s clients have shot a collared elephant?? I seem to recall hearing that. Again, neither Martin nor his client have broken any law. And as stated in the above announcement, why would anyone even think of shooting a collared animal in today’s environment?? I have no idea what a collar on an elephant looks like, or whether it can easily be seen. And in Martin’s defense, I do know that on a hunt, when one does see an old, big, exceptional animal, a decision to shoot is made immediately, and no further examining or discussion is made. It is not like looking over a marginal animal, where one can have a discussion while looking it over. A very sad sistuation indeed for all concerned. I think we had this discussion regarding shooting collared lion before. | |||
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| One of Us |
That's the exact same reason ducks and geese are banded Ross. And those bands are considered a great trophy, I know all of mine are. . | |||
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| Administrator |
I know. I got hundreds of these from different birds. But an elephant? I can assure you I would not shoot a collared elephant today! Even if he was a hundred pounder! 40 years ago, might not be a problem. Today? Never! | |||
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| One of Us |
Pretty difficult to see the band when the bird is on the wing and the undercarriage tucked away.  I very much doubt anyone reports the location where the bird was taken nor is the band returned anyway; nobody makes a noise when one is taken. When doing a stint in Turkey I remember having shot a Snipe wearing a band - the writing was in Russian, damned if I could decipher it (my Turkish friends told me it was quite common to find bands on ducks and quail) but the bird tasted real good. It did however interestingly prove that a variety of birds migrated to and from Russia through Turkey and possibly beyond. | |||
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| One of Us |
FYI. Since 1960, about 14 million ducks have been banded in the US and Canada, with over 2 million info reports. | |||
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| One of Us |
By my calculations that would equate to approximately 4% of banded birds taken per year are reported in the USA. Care to come up with a figure for birds flying around between the Middle East and Russia?  | |||
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One of Us |
So the anti's ARE winning. Never mind how legal it all is. | |||
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One of Us |
Is the situation any clearer? | |||
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| One of Us |
Quite a contentious subject indeed, killing a collared elephant!! Given the circumstance Martin has explained, I don’t see the outcome would have been different (for the elephant) if many of us, including me, were in the Russian client’s boots. I don’t think the majority of people in western countries do not make any real distinction between hunting a bull, collared or not, tuskless cow or any other elephant. Most people find such hunting repugnant and would be well pleased to see all elephant hunting stopped, regardless of the consequences to the species or those people living in elephant country. As Fairgame has mentioned previously, the futures of Africa’s elephant and other game rests primarily with Africa’s landlords. If they see no value in game, then I suspect the game is over. | |||
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| Administrator |
Why are the antis winning just because I will not shoot a collared animal? There a lot of things which legal today that I have absolutely no wish to participate in. | |||
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| One of Us |
FACTS FROM ZIM ( which seem to be ignored at the moment) FACT 1- FRANKFURT ZOOLOGICAL SOCIETY KNEW THE WHERE ABOUTS OF THE SAID BULL BUT DID NOT WARN THE OPERATOR/PH THAT IT WAS IN THE HUNTING AREA - THERE IS A LETTER FROM THE FZS CONFIRMING THIS. FACT 2/ IT WAS A LEGAL HUNT FACT 3/ IT IS LEGAL TO SHOOT A COLLARED ELEPHANT FACT 4/ NATIONAL PARKS INCLUDING THE FZS HAVE DONE THIER INVESTIGATIONS AND CLEARED MP OF ANY WRONG DOING. FACT 5/ ZPHGA HAVE WRITTEN A STATEMENT CLEARING MP AND THE OPERATOR OF ANY WRONG DOING The grey area which we can discuss till we are blue in the face is 1/ Was it ethical 2/ Was MP aware of the collar 3/ Would you shoot a collared elephant. What I can tell you is at this time of the year it is extremely hard to see a collar. The bush is thick and often the bulls have rolled in mud etc. I do believe it has come at the worst possible time for the negative publicity will have an adverse effect in the whole process of up lifting the ban which I hope is imminent. | |||
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| One of Us |
I believe that the Non consumptive guys from the National Parks need to raise the money , identify possible iconic animals, collar them at their expense and then make it law that they cannot be hunted. I cannot see many PH/ clients having a problem with this although I have to say from our general chat here in Zim some are against it. | |||
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One of Us |
100% the anti’s are winning...while we surely hate it...anyone that denies it must walk around in a vacuum. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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