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The Double Rifle Bullet of the Future!
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Well now, that got your attention eh? The Double Rifle Bullet of the Future! Sorta catchy I think!

HI all, those of you that don't know me, I am just Michael, I stay upstairs for the most part in the big bore forum, but I have something that is so very important, or at least I think it is, I simply must share it with you, as it pertains more to you than it does even to me. I am a bullet nut, and love solid bullets. I started the Terminal Performance Thread upstairs from you last November.

So what do I have for you, and what in the hell am I talking about, the Double Rifle Bullet of the Future?

Well here is the story! My good friend and buddy, SRose, you boys see him here from time to time. We have been working hard for many months testing new nose profiles for solids to see what we could come up with. Sam does the bullet making, I do the testing! Some time ago I handed him a sample of a bullet, and asked if he could come up with something. Well he did, several variations of the nose profile, and just so happens we hit on one, we call it the BBW #13, as it has a 13 degree nose angle! Penetration is extreme with this bullet, it's dead straight line penetration, and it seems to go across to any caliber we have tested and worked with, and that has been fairly extensive. Please, if you want to know more, got up to the Terminal Bullet Performance thread, they are posted there. Currently we are working on these bullets with Cutting Edge Bullets, new to the dangerous game bullet market. All CNC bullets, copper or brass of course. I have placed orders now for this bullet in my own .500 caliber rifles, and in addition to that .510 caliber, 474 caliber, .458 caliber, 416 caliber, to work thru my bolt guns and my own cartridges the B&M Series.

Now Sam is our double rifle fan, and expert as far as I am concerned. Sam owns a lot of double rifles, I don't know how many, I have seen a dozen different ones so far, and I am quite sure I have not seen them all! Sam wanted this BBW #13 for his double rifles too. It's performance enhances the capabilities of any and all cartridges you can put it in! But our concern was shooting monos that are ill designed in the double rifles, splitting the barrels apart and so forth, and whatever damage you can do to one. I am not a double expert, but understand the concept. Sam came up with several band designs that we have been trying and working with in his doubles. We sent prototypes to Cutting Edge Bullets, from here out known as CEB! And we received a couple of weeks ago a run of prototypes in copper, with a 2 band design.

Here are some of these samples we tested.





What is so impressive about these bullets is the consistent straight line penetration. Now it was Sam's contention that the two band design had to put less stress on the barrels than normal fmj bullets, or even multi band bullets. This obviously made good common sense to me too. Here is a comparison of a 3 band version.



Obviously as you can see, much less bearing surface, has to cause less stress. Or one would think so anyway.

I run a Pressure Trace system when I need to test pressures of any of my cartridges, and loads. Sam saw this one day, and decided we should hook the system up to a double rifle, a strain gage in the rear to measure actual pressures, and a strain gage on the barrel to make an attempt at measuring the stress put on the barrel at the point of where the strain gage is attached. With some thought on that matter, I could see no downside to at least make the effort to see what we could learn. I could not find a reason that it would not work, since that is what a strain gage does, it measures the amount of barrel stretch either by pressure, or the passage of a bullet down the bore!

The Pressure Trace had been very reliable for me on all matters in the past, and I have tested it against factory ammo, and my own case measurements and observations, so as long as the gage is attached properly, and the connections are good, then it is a viable tool that one can use to measure pressures. It may not be exact, but it has always correlated will with all other factors, including factory ammo tests.

So last week we attached the strain gages to one of Sam's 470 Nitro Double rifles, one in the rear for pressure readings, and one 5 inches from the muzzle to see if we could get a reading as the bullet passed that point on the barrel. Sam did all the loading and used the same load throughout the test, 106 grs of IMR 4831, Federal 215 Primers, New 470 Nitro brass, to keep things as consistent as possible. Sam did have some old, original Kyoch loads with Cordite that we tested in addition to the other loads. We tested the 500 gr Woodleigh FMJ and Soft Point, 500 gr Barnes Banded, 500 gr Hornady DGS, old orginal 500 gr Barnes Copper Tube bullets, a 466 gr Brass BBW #13, and a 500 gr Copper BBW#13 by CEB.

Since we did not know what the results might be we decided to test only 2 rounds for pressure, and two rounds for barrel strain. Extra rounds were loaded in case there were any foul ups, anomalies, or any questions. The only problem we had during the test, on one of the loads I had the wrong setting on the computer, and we had to use a 3rd round. Other than that, there were no anomalies or other strange happenings. Everything correlated down the line with pressure readings, barrel strain, and velocity readings, so there is a high amount of confidence in the test work, and I am very sure it can be repeated, and we already have a plan in place to do more test work, and repeatable test work.

Now, before I go further, I am very excited about this, and get carried away with it sometimes, so my apology.

I have to explain something to you--I have nothing to sell you, I am not trying to sell you anything, I am nor is Sam, in the bullet making business, I am not part of any bullet manufacturing company, and I am not looking to be, I have a job, and I don't want another one. I don't even own a double rifle, and I never have, and I probably never will, it's just not my thing. So I have time and money invested in this project, not for myself, but for you! I do love bullets, and only good ones! I shoot a lot, test a lot, and love to do it! All my stuff is primarily big bore, I dabble some in 9.3 caliber, but that is about it, the rest of my total interest is larger bore rifles. So I am not here for myself, nothing to sell you, and I could care less whether you like this, believe this, or not. It's for you, not for me, so do with it as you please, if it helps, great I will do everything I can to help you, if you don't like it, fine with me.

Something else too, I am not nor is Sam, claiming that this is 100% safe in your rifles, that's for you to decide based on the data I am getting ready to present you with. Sam says it's safe in his double rifles and that is what he is going to use, that's good enough for me, and the data speaks for itself. But if you go blow your crap up with one of these because you filled the case full of bullseye instead of IMR 4831, and then blame it on the bullet, well that's your problem, not mine, nor Sams, nor the maker of the bullet, no claims made, you make your own mind up on that.

I can tell you this, even though I have no double rifle, and don't want one, I was way more excited about this data as it came across the computer screen than any of you guys, I was dancing on the floor of the range yesterday!! Ask Sam, he was there! dancing


My good friend Capoward has made an excellent spreadsheet that has all the data listed on it in easy order to read, I think he may post that after I do this post. In between, I am going to post the actual data reports for you to look at. I hope it's of some use to you and will assist you in future choices of bullets, but it's totally up to you to choose what you think is best, I can't tell you what is best for you. All I can tell you is what I would do, and that is all.

Please remember #1 Reports are for actual Pressure Data

#2 reports are for what I have been calling barrel strain, for lack of a better term.



Before Capo gets his spreadsheet up, I have it summary for you here;


1. 500 Woodleigh FMJ #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 44899 PSI--Velocity 2110 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--23667


2. 500 Woodleigh Soft Point #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 36892 PSI--Velocity 2104 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--21903


3. 500 Barnes Banded Solid #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 46738 PSI--Velocity 2169 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--22848


4. 500 Barnes Original Copper Tube Solid/FMJ #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 43214 PSI--Velocity 2126 fps
#2 Barrel Strain--21525


5. 500 Hornady DGS #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 44147 PSI--Velocity 2104 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--22533


6. 500 Kynoch Original Cordite Load #1 Pressure---45909 PSI--Velocity 2084 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--18250


7. 466 Brass BBW #13 #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 39172 PSI--Velocity 2141 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--20013


8. 500 Copper BBW #13 CEB #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 30029 PSI--Velocity 2142 FPS

#2 Barrel Strain--20265


Over the next few minutes I will be posted all the actual reports for you to look at.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Congrats, I spoke to Sam the other day and he mentioned all the work the both of you are doing. Very exciting especially for the owners of vintage doubles wanting something safe but still giving modern performance.

quote:
I don't even own a double rifle


That is so sad, it might be time to cross over to the bright side and leave the bolt guns home.
Your life and savings account will never be the same


Ken

DRSS, PP Chapter
Life NRA
Life SCI
Life DSC
 
Posts: 1299 | Location: PA | Registered: 06 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Hey Kebco

Thanks, I can't take the credit however, Sam deserves the credit, I am just the monkey doing the test work with him!

Now, let me get to those all important data sheets for you guys!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
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http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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I've been following this topic on "Big Bores".

Great (remarkable) work by Michael, Sam, and yes, even Corbin Wink.

Hats off to you guys for enlightening us old dinasaurs (farts)!! tu2 You may have changed our world! I'm never too old to learn. Thanks again!!


Deo Vindice,

Don

Sons of Confederate Veterans Black Horse Camp #780
 
Posts: 1615 | Location: Virginia | Registered: 01 February 2009Reply With Quote
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michael458 is an "Info Junkie", and I mean that in the nicest way! Big Grin salute Big Grin



Jack

OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.}

 
Posts: 2791 | Location: USA - East Coast | Registered: 10 December 2005Reply With Quote
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Now, there is a good bit to digest here, some extremely important points I would like to make, take a look at the actual pressure of the 500 BBW #13 Copper bullet. You see it peaks at 30000 PSI. Also notice that the average velocity was 2140 fps with that bullet. Now, all the rest of the bullets--except the 466 Brass BBW #13 were around 45000 PSI, and 2100 fps, the Barnes at 46000 PSI and 2160 fps. What is truly amazing is that velocity held, or most of the time increased over the other bullets, at 35% less pressure! If nothing else strikes you as important, that should. It strikes me as an extreme factor, and one that I am going to test in my own cartridges in my bolt guns! If you did nothing but lower the pressure, and maintain the same velocity then think of the ramifications of that? If you take this lower pressure, with equal velocity, then up the pressure with a heavier charge, still safely, and increase your velocity what do you have then? This is having "Your Cake, And Eating it Too".

As you can see the Copper and even the Brass BBW#13 had lower barrel strain, the #2 data, than any bullet tested thus far, with the one exception of the orginal Kynoch loadings with cordite. Much less than the tried and true Woodleigh FMJ and Barnes Banded. Even lower than the Woodleigh Soft point.

So gentlemen, there you have it. I am sure Capoward will be along shortly and post his wonderful spreadsheet for you to look at, with all the data together for you.

We are not finished yet, we have only started.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Error...Error...Have to post below!!!


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne
 
Posts: 4953 | Location: Central Texas | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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Jim

The Kynoch 18250 reading is the one fired for the pressure or barrel strain at the 19 inch spot on your spreadsheet--Not at the 1.5 Pressure gage. So we have a barrel strain #2 reading on the Kynoch.

There was only 1 round fired for each measurement for the Kynoch.


Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Sorry I only had 2 original Kynoch rounds to test. If anyone would like to let us get some more that we know the date of manufacture we can shoot them from comparison. Also if anyone out there wants to compare any other factory round we would need 4 rounds each. I will be glad to pay for them so we can have them in the data. Sorry no reloads as I will only shoot my ammo in my double. Further tests may include other powders and bullets also.

Sam
 
Posts: 2801 | Location: NC | Registered: 08 July 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by DoubleDon:
I've been following this topic on "Big Bores".

Great (remarkable) work by Michael, Sam, and yes, even Corbin Wink.

Hats off to you guys for enlightening us old dinasaurs (farts)!! tu2 You may have changed our world! I'm never too old to learn. Thanks again!!



Thanks Don, from all of us I am sure. Even Corbin!

Sam deserves by far the greatest amount of the credit for making this happen, me, I just the monkey running the system this time! But it is very exciting to me regardless too!

Yep, Jack, you know it, I always want to be on the "inside of the learning curve" so to speak!

There are many things left to learn out here, we have only scratched the surface thus far!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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Just returned home and was catching up on things. Here is the updated spreadsheet that now resides on the Big Bore Thread, posted here for the reader’s convenience:



Hopefully you’ll find it to be useful. Please let me know if any errors are identified…I’ll correct and both threads will be updated simultaneously.

I must be having some issues between Photo Bucket and AR Forums as I’ve had some trouble getting the corrected spreadsheet to show on both the DR and BB Forums.

Ok...updated spreadsheet posted!


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne
 
Posts: 4953 | Location: Central Texas | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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Michael and all involved, thank yous.

Mike


Michael Podwika... DRSS bigbores and hunting www.pvt.co.za " MAKE THE SHOT " 450#2 Famars
 
Posts: 6742 | Location: Wyoming, Pa. USA | Registered: 17 April 2003Reply With Quote
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What's the measured diameter of these misc. bullets compared to the measured/slugged bore size of the rifles?


NRA Life
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DRSS

Today's Quote:
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
 
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All that is to come, we're just getting started.

Sam
 
Posts: 2801 | Location: NC | Registered: 08 July 2006Reply With Quote
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Michael, Sam and Jim have done some impressive testing so far.


NRA Life
ASSRA Life
DRSS

Today's Quote:
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
 
Posts: 4094 | Location: Anchorage Ak | Registered: 19 November 2005Reply With Quote
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This is amazing stuff. The same principle could be applied to other big game bullets. Just the cost of manufacture will be an issue.

It would be nice to see the same results for tests with Northfork & Trophy bonded bullets. It would also be interesting to see results for the new Barnes Hydrostatic bullets.

Sam is that your Chapuis 470? My cheek is still swollen from shooting that rifle my friend!! Big Grin


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 10757 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
Michael, Sam and Jim have done some impressive testing so far.
Mike thank you but all credit goes to Michael and Sam as they're doing all the work. I just tried to put their efforts into an easily read spreadsheet.


Jim coffee
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne
 
Posts: 4953 | Location: Central Texas | Registered: 15 September 2007Reply With Quote
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Nakihunter,

Yes this is my Chapuis 470 in the tests. I thought you like shooting my doubles? Funny you should bring up those bullets, A very nice man has sent some of each you talk about for us to compare. I guess we just got a little ahead of ourselfs. More to come.

Sam
 
Posts: 2801 | Location: NC | Registered: 08 July 2006Reply With Quote
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Good Morning All! It's a wonderful new Day!

Now, as Sam said, we are just getting started, but everything was shaping up so exciting, that I could not wait to get it out there for you to start thinking about. We have much work left to do, and many of the suggestions you guys have made are in the works even as you make them. Sam should have North Forks, maybe some factory ammo, and several other bullets we will be testing and continue to test as we move forward.

Sam, each time a new test is done, please load at least 2 of the 500 Woodleigh Softs as a control, which we will shoot each time a new test is conducted to have a control to compare to the last test conducted.

Now over the last few months these bullets have been tested for stability during terminals and penetration many times, in several calibers, several weights within caliber, different bands and widths, different meplat sizes and so forth, even a T'Rex Test. All of these are on the Terminal Performance thread on Big Bores. We have extreme confidence in the bullet to do the job asked of it.

I wanted to take a nice photo of it this morning for you to look at.



Now where is this going?

I needed some expert help with this, and especially with the double rifles, so I have enlisted Sam to handle the Double Rifle part of this, while I will work with bullets for the bolts/lever guns. Both Sam and I will be supervising the entire line of these bullets as they go into production for CEB. We are not employees, and are not getting paid, we are just shooters like you guys, but we want to make sure we as shooters and hunters are getting it 100% right all the way down the line. It's a phenomenal bullet, and it very well may change a lot of things in the future. CEB is doing an incredible job with it, and has asked us both to assist with this. This bullet has already changed my future as I will be taking it to all my current cartridges/rifles and hunting adventures.

On my side of things for the bolts/lever guns, I will be taking the BBW#13 to .510 caliber a 570 gr bullet, .500 caliber 500 gr Brass bullet for my 500 MDM and 50 B&M, a 425 gr Copper for the 50 B&M Alaskan lever guns, .474 caliber a 450 Brass BBW#13 for my 475 B&M and a 375 Copper #13 for my 475 B&M Super Short, a 500 gr and 450 gr .458 caliber, a 350 gr .416 caliber, and I will probably do a 286 gr Brass BBW#13 for my 9.3 B&Ms. Most of these will have 6-7 smaller multi bands. This may change as we move forward and more test work is done with 2-4 bands even with the bolt guns/lever guns, this is already in place now and I have bullets ordered starting with .500 caliber.

Sam has already ordered a run of the BBW#13s in copper 2-bands for every caliber available in double rifles! All the larger bores anyway, and yes, all the way up to .620! Currently .584 caliber has top priority right now as Sam needs it for a trip coming up in a few short weeks! So we are scrambling right now with that too.

I have ordered 250 test projectiles in .500 caliber with the 2-bands for testing in the bolt guns as well. It will be a 500 gr Copper BBW#13.

Two meplat sizes have been chosen, a 70% meplat of caliber for all the doubles, a 67% meplat of caliber for the bolt guns. 67% meplat insures proper feeding and function in my Winchesters, and does not sacrifice stability and straight line penetration.

I am also taking it a step further, once many of these things are sorted out with the solids, we will be taking the same exact bullet and making a hollow point non con out of it! Both Copper and Brass versions. Same exact design, bands, the works, but will be making them a hollow point--I will not be increasing the weight to match the solid, I have found in ALL circumstances thus far that it is not needed to either regulate, or to have the same point of impact at 50 yards with both the Hollow Point and the solid. I have been shooting these type bullets now for a little over 5 years in many different configurations in my rifles, and doing this does not change points of impact at 50 yds, even though one can increase the velocity some of the hollow point (if desired). I have also used this in the field extensively over the last few years. For example the hollow point takes a bullet weight down by about 10% average and in all my rifles I have tested so far they are the same POI. Now I can't promise that with your rifle, just saying that's what I have experienced thus far.

Of course we will be testing this aspect of it extensively when that time comes, both in the doubles and the bolt guns! These Non Con bullets can all be seen on the TBP thread on Big Bores, if you have not seen them before. They are phenomenal in their performance. They are Non Cons--our term for Non-Conventional. So you will have to have an open mind if you have not been exposed to this, it took a while for it to sink in for me too! Other examples of commercial Non Cons, are the Cup Points from North Fork, and extreme bullet which I am very fond of. The CPS works some different than the 6 bladed HPs in brass or copper, and copper HPs work a bit different than brass HPs.

I told CEB this week, or actually was asking why we could not take this BBW#13 solid, and very simply make a HP of it. We already have all the dimensions sorted out on the bullet, so why worry with a new design just for the HP. Now, the only issue might be with lesser bolt rifles than the Winchester M70 and have feeding issues, they may need a round nose HP to feed. Which can be available. But for what I am going to be involved with is BBW#13 Solids/HPs! As for performance, I think the HP version may be better than all the ones I have been working with!

So you see, we are just getting going, you are in at the very beginning, and hopefully will watch as it progresses.

Bullets will be available to you guys too. That is the point of the whole thing. So they are coming, and it's not going to be long coming! We are not patient individuals! We want our damn bullets, and we want them yesterday!

HEH

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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I have one other thing that I would like to share with you. Part of it, a learning experience on my part, and for sure Sams when we started working with his "Mighty" 577 Nitro Double.

I am not new to this, and have shot a lot of solids testing over the last few years. When you do this, opinions start to form of course. While I thought the "Ultra Bores" (anything over .510 caliber) was very interesting, I personally had very little respect for them in the deep, straight line penetration arena!

I had yet to see any cartridge, or bullet, over .510 caliber equal the depth and straight line penetration of my own .500s, and .458s! Corbin had brought down a 600 OK and we tested it with several available bullets, including the new Barnes Banded 900 gr solid, and this confirmed what I had always thought, the 600 could not touch the depth of penetration of even a proper flat nose 458 caliber solid.

Sam brought the mighty 577 Nitro down, and this continued. Not even close.

Sam designed many different nose profiles to try in the 577 and for the most part the very best and deepest penetration from 50-55 inches in the test medium. That is good, and more than is needed for any mission, elephant, hippo, and most certainly buffalo. And hitting with extreme authority up front! But it was common for good proper flat nose solids to penetrate to 55 inches or more in this test medium, a 350 gr 416 will do this, a 450 gr 458 will do this, even a 450 gr .500 caliber will do this, and many more.

Extreme penetration in the test medium I work with is anything beyond 62 inches! Some bullets going to 65-70 inches is extremely--extreme. Corbin, shut up, I don't want to hear crap about a 6.5 bullet! Corbin had a 6.5 that went beyond extreme, close to 80, but I don't want to hear it, and this is NOT a competition to see what goes the deepest, I am far more interested in straight line penetration, no veering off course! Having said that, do keep in mind that most all bullets regardless of nose design will loose stability at the very end of penetration, last couple of inches, so that is not a fault of design, but just the way it is!

Well this trend continued right on until just a very short time ago with the BBW #13. Sam had rolled out a couple of brass #13s that weighed in at 725 grs and 70% meplat. I have learned some lessons, have two penetration boxes, both that have 64 inches of test medium in them, and put them end to end to catch some that might go past 64 inches, into the second box. But I was sure that no 577 Nitro would ever be able to reach that deep, but anyway, end to end it was.

First round fired, check both chronographs, reposition the boxes so they are straight, Sam declares that bullet #1 passed completely through. I thought he was kidding! I did not believe it! Sure enough, it did pass completely through, and looked to be 100% straight! OK, probably an anomaly that can occur! #2 fired, now it was time to dig, Sam declares--Complete pass through! No way! Can't happen was my reply! Sure enough, it did pass through also!

Pulling the witness cards to 60 inches penetration was 100% dead straight, into the second box, one bullet had gone to 71 inches, the other to 70 inches, and as far as we could tell 100% dead straight line penetration, and hit like a hammer for the first 20 inches of penetration destroying the test medium. Never had an Ultra Bore penetrated so deep, and so straight. And it is repeatable, as Sam designed more that come in at 750 grs, and then another profile at 750 and they all passed through the first box completely and into the second box, dead straight.

Here is a spreadsheet for you to look at with all the bullets we have tested for penetration in Sams 577 Nitro. It certainly appears to us that the BBW #13 has everything going for it, Penetration, straight line penetration, hits like a hammer up front, lower initial pressures, less barrel strain and accurate thus far! This is an extreme rare phenomena, one I am not sure I have had much experience with when it comes to shooting, there seems to be no "compromise"?

And now, I have a great deal more respect for a 577 Nitro!




Here are the brass prototypes tested.









Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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SIR,
I am no expert with regard to double rifles, so my below question may be irrelevant, but here it goes:
Since double rifle regualtion may be the result of numerous factors, including projectile velocity and barrel flex, can you at some point indicate what the reduced strain and reduced pressure do with regard to regulation.
Stating it another way, does the lower pressure and lower barrel strain result in a different bullet impact point.


Bob Nisbet
DRSS & 348 Lever Winchester Lover
Temporarily Displaced Texan
If there's no food on your plate when dinner is done, you didn't get enough to eat.
 
Posts: 769 | Location: Texas and Alabama | Registered: 07 January 2009Reply With Quote
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Michael, congratulations on your work in this very important field for double rifle hunters of very large animals!

IMO with this design, and others of like configuration, and materal making them safe for use in double rifle to avoid OSR on the one hand, and to give straight line penetration.

The one thing I would like better than the design of the two bullets above is very easily done in the making of the bullets, and again, IMO, will not change the results you are getting on the penetration tests, but will do two things to make this fine bullet better.

The change is simple by simply adding another pressure ring at the base of the bullet exactly like the front two rings. What this will accomplish is, to make the bullet easier to maintain straight line when pressed into the case neck by the loader. No 2 it will give one more ring to better hold the blow-by at check on firing.

Again I'm impressed, and with the copper version a cup point, or hollow with short cuts to allow expansion with the less brittle copper for massive tissue damage!

........................ tu2


....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

 
Posts: 14520 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
Good Morning All! It's a wonderful new Day!

Sam has already ordered a run of the BBW#13s in copper 2-bands for every caliber available in double rifles! All the larger bores anyway, and yes, all the way up to .620!

Michael


tu2 clap beer


NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003
STILL waiting for my Taksdale double or a refund

Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow
 
Posts: 3402 | Location: In the Shadow of Griffin&Howe | Registered: 24 November 2007Reply With Quote
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Bob,

So far these bullets have regulated really well in my guns. Seems to be very easy to get to regulate. I can't really answer your question as to how it all relates to barrel flex.

MacD37,

We are looking at the possiblity of 4 equally spaced bands on these bullets, but when we tested the 2 band it really excited us so we are sticking with 2 band until we can do further testing.

Sam
 
Posts: 2801 | Location: NC | Registered: 08 July 2006Reply With Quote
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Michael,

Long live the 6.5mm Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin

BR
 
Posts: 240 | Location: USA | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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good design. try this. at the point where the meplate is bring it back 0.5 inches at 90 degrees then start the taper. This will prolong supercavitation and may give you more penetration than you already have.
 
Posts: 149 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: 02 September 2010Reply With Quote
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Max Trama,

Not quite sure what you're talking about, I think we've got the terminal part figured out. What part of NC are you in?

Sam
 
Posts: 2801 | Location: NC | Registered: 08 July 2006Reply With Quote
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I have been on the range a good portion of the morning, seeing what I could break today!

Mac

I wish I could take some credit, but most all the credit must go to Sam for this one! I was just a monkey playing with the computer, and doing a few penetration tests is all!

In time we will be checking lot's of things, like Sam said, before the tests the other day we were going with the 4 bands, but the test work was so incredible, we really didn't want to change anything at that point.

I am leaning now very much to a six bladed HP. I shot a lot of buffalo in Australia last year with a 6 bladed copper, the blades shear and remain within the wound channel, and massive trauma transmitted to target. Penetration most of the time thru and thru destroying tissue that a conventional bullet would not touch. Penetration on average is running about 20-25% more with these copper non cons than your finest premiums. Lot's of tissue damage up front and the blades shear off between 6-12 inches during penetration, remaining slug continues to penetrate like a solid! Also straight line penetration too. Not too bad!

Thanks again, but the credit has to go to Sam!

Paul, we thinking about you! As you see!



Corbin--Shut up!

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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the projectile you created is a supercavitator. as it penetrates material that is mostly fluid such as animal flesh it will travel in a gas bubble reducing friction and allowing it to maintain gyroscopic stability. supercavitation is velocity dependent and also dependent on the cavitation number. a higher cavitation number will allow a projectile to maintain stability at a lower velocity. a sharp edge on the meplate with an area for low pressure behind the edge will facilitate cavitation by creating a bigger pressure gradient. this is complicated subject and I will give you some places to do some research.
You can look into the RAMICS projectile the the army has which is a supercavitating projectile used for mine clearing. just search ramics on line and you will get lots of info. You can also look at supercavitating torpedos for info along with the underwater projectiles the us and russians have

www.aem.umn.edu/research/super...ents/thesis_Eric.pdf is an easy to read work on supercavitating torpedos and it is not classified. much of the classified info is being released currently.
for supercavitation calculators try this site
www.ajdesigner.com/phpcavitati..._number_equation.php
for a simple explanation from someone who explains thing better than me you can look at this
www.grosswildjagd.de/penetrationtm.
I thing gs customs has info on supercavitation on their website

after you learn about supercavitation then realize that it is great for penetration thru soft tissue but it has no effect on bone penetration and if you make the supercavitating meplate too big you will loose penetration through bone. You can also look at woodleighs new hydroscopically stablized bullet which is a exceptional supercavitating design with a meplate small enough for good penetration through bone
In soft tissue you will find that the shape of the bullet is much more important than velocity for a solids penetration. you can double the velocity and only see a 10 percent increase in penetration at times but if you use a supercavitating design you can double the penetration at the same velocity. This is not the case in bone or hard solids since if you double the velocity you will get a 4 fold increase in penetration so I suggest testing of bullets for use on elephants be tested also on bone simulant. I can tell just from your design that you bullet should penetrate extreamly well in bone and soft tissue and really an increase in penetration is not totally needed but you may be interested in experimenting. The beauty of the double is you can create really cool supercavitators without worring about feeding since a sharp meplate in a mauser will give you a controlled jamming dg rifle instead of a controlled feeding.

I have many other tech sources on supercavitation but they are very math intensive and painful to read. Most of the current work being done on supercavitation in the us is at University of Minn and the us military allegheny research facility.

buy the way I am very impressed with your design of your long range projectiles. you truly have been doing your homework.

sorry about the spelling. I live in Randleman Nc.
 
Posts: 149 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: 02 September 2010Reply With Quote
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Hey Max

Yep, know all about super cavitation, been there done that, got a few t'shirts on it. Thanks for the insight however, never hurts to remember and review.

Since you are new, go up to Big Bores, and look through the Terminal Bullet Performance thread, we cover a lot of ground up there, most solids, but a lot of other terminals also. Been playing this terminal performance for about 15 yrs now, in test medium and in the field as well. Not sure I know what you mean when you say long range projectiles, hell I can barely see past 25 yds, now if you mean 50 yds as long range, I agree with you! LOL

LOL

Thanks Max

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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I found the long thread 100 pages now. I see that you have tested and know about supercavitation. I am not certain that the slight change I suggested would make any real world improvements since I think the penetration of the current design would see it leaving an elephant on the offside without a problem. I applaud you at your diligence in developing such a wonderful design. I had designed a a bullet that I was going to produce and then woodleigh came out with there new hydro which is almost identical to the one I came up with. The material cost was too high for me to make a roi in such a niche market so I did not pursue it further. I am very happy that you guys have done what you have done and I think after the r and d is over you will have many interested in using the bullet.
by the way are you using the pressure trace from rsi and if so do you like it. I have been considering buying one to play with
 
Posts: 149 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: 02 September 2010Reply With Quote
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Max

Yep 100 pages and moving forward at a steady pace! It's a monster for sure. Even the very slightest change can make a difference, either good or not so good. To give you an example, some of the first #13s we tested in .500 caliber, one set had sharp edges, the other set had rounded edges. They should not have penetrated a 62+ inch box of test medium, and the sharp edge did not penetrate it, 62 inches dead straight. The same exact bullet penetrated the entire box of medium, exited the rear and both were lost in the berm! No difference in the two, rounded edge is all! So now, all #13s have the sharp edge rounded off.

67% meplat for the bolt guns, 70% meplat for the doubles.


Elephant, buffalo, hippo--zero issues at all. One might could continue to tweak this and that, and possibly get a few more inches out of it. But it already penetrates plenty. The penetration seen in this test medium will equate back into animal tissue by adding 30%-35% as a rule of thumb. So all the depth of penetration you can ever need is already there. I am far more impressed by it's consistency to penetrate dead straight than anything else. Bone will not be an issue for this bullet either, it will hammer through that with ease. In copper it is plenty fine for elephants, and many of the ones I am doing for the bolt guns will be brass and it's a bit tougher when it comes to heavy bone I think, but either will do.

Hey, Sam gets most of the credit on design, not me.

Yes, I am using and have used the Pressure trace from RSI for some time now. Yes, I do like it, so far I am very pleased with it. It's a great tool, and when the gages are attached proper, and the connections good, it seems to work great. I have tested much with factory ammo and it comes close, and it was spot on with my case measurements and case study with all my B&M cartridges. Correlates very well. Perfect? Nahh, but when it comes to true pressure, I am not sure if any system is 100% Perfection anyway. I think one has to use a lot of common sense, and use the pressure as a guideline and a tool in which to deduce what is happening. But I have been extremely pleased with it over the last few years. Can be a bit sensitive, but once you learn the in's and out's I think it's a wonderful tool to have. Not that expensive either.

Michael


http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html

The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
 
Posts: 8426 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 23 June 2008Reply With Quote
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