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| One of Us |
How would a 257 Creedmore be any different than a 257 Roberts plus p, 6mm Creedmore, or anything the middle 6.5 like the 6.5 Sweed, 6.5 MS, 6.5 Creedmore, 260 Rem. I am sick of the Creedmore. That includes the 6mm Creedmore. But I love the 375 Ruger case and wish more was done with it. The difference is the Creedmore does nothing existing case did not do. The Ruger case got rid of the belt and girth of the 404 based cases. | |||
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One of Us |
For deer only most any cartridge that can shoot a 100 gr plus bullet to around 2800-3000 fps second will do the job. For the next step up in game size a 125 plus gr bullet at the same velocity will do the job. Next on the list would start a 150 gr plus bullet at those velocities. These types of loads work great at the ranges most shoot at game. I don't think many actually shoot game at much over 300 yards. Long range shooting of game appeals to some, not so much to me. Leo The only way to know if you can do a thing is to do it. | |||
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| one of us |
I think you will really enjoy the 358. Several places I hunt are small places and you can't let a deer cross the fence. If you can't find factory ammo Imperial Sizing die wax on a 308 once through the 358 die, load, and shoot. I use the middle load of the book load and that is MY max load. It has always been better than minute of deer and easy on the shoulder. Had no factory ammo for about four years so I used Federal .308 cases. Then LC surplus cases. If you use Military once fired then drop two full grains in the load because it is heavy brass. Good luck and Be Well. Rusty | |||
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| one of us |
Have you tried the .338 Federal (.338-08)? If so, how does it compare to the .358? I am kinda also thinking a 225 .338 bullet would be a hammer on deer in the northwoods (but truthfully, harder to kill them better than a 180 gr bullet out of my .308) | |||
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One of Us |
Both the 338 Federal and the 358 Winchester are excellent hunting rounds and in their prime out to about 300 yards. (They're a little slow and heavy for 400.) They are more powerful than the 308 and also fit in short-length actions. Most would consider them to be moose and elk rounds, too, along with their 308 parent-cartridge. Put them in a short rifle and one could do a lot of exciting hunting. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| one of us |
I have not tried the 338 Federal. Why? I have 3 358 Winchesters plus the cannon breeched Lone Eagle. Be Well. Packy | |||
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| One of Us |
The last three days have shown an interesting trend.
Now we have:
Those increasing were:
The 24-25 caliber increased by 5, and the Swede took 5 out of 6 of the .264" slot. Especially significant is that the front runner 270 got zero, along with the other more powerful rounds in the list, the 25-06, 264WM, and 7-08. Perhaps the trend is due to more clarity or focus on "non-elk", but it may simply be some traditionalists coming later to the vote. 7 of the 11 went to the Robert or the Swede. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| One of Us |
Exactly! After that, the selection should be based on recoil. The less recoil, the easier it is for most of us to make accurate shots. That’s why cartridges like the .257 Roberts and .243 Win have been classic deer cartridges with the 6.5 Grendel gaining steady traction. Oh, I didn’t mention the kicks-like-a-mule 30-30. This rifle is all too often chambered in very ligtght rifles with minimal or no recoil pad. | |||
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| One of Us |
My first pick would be the 250 savage. Perfect for deer size game. It’s not only the caliber but the guns the cartridge can be purchased in. Hard to beat a savage lever in the 99F vintage 1950s. Or a Ruger international in 250 savage. | |||
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| One of Us |
The original concept was Deer out to 400 and maybe 500 yards. Some of the calibers mentioned would be short on energy out at that range. That's why I went with the 270. | |||
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| One of Us |
Biebs, you have a good point. For example, at almost every point of comparison, the 270 outshines the 6.5 Creedmoor. The question becomes, what does the hunter want to trade for the recoil? Below is a comparison between a 6.5 Creedmoor shooting a 120 grain TTSX bullet with a BC of .443 at 2900 fps and a 270 Winchester shooting a 129 grain bullet with a BC of .463 at 3100 fps. The loads were chosen to approximate similar sectional densities in similarly constructed bullets at reasonable hunting velocities close to "book max" for each for a 22" barrel. 1. The distance from the muzzle where the bullet drops below 2600 fps and potentially loses some of its DRT potential: 6.5Crd -- and --- 270Win 165yds -- and -- 290yds This is potentially significant by giving an extra 130 yard range. 2. Using a max arc height of 2.1" above the line of sight, what is the drop at 300 yards and 400 yards? 6.5Crd@300 6.5Crd@400 -- and -- 270Win@300 270@400 --- -6.0" ---- -18.8" -------- and ----- -4.1" ---- -14.6" The two-inch savings in the 270 at 300 yards might be significant, especially when a shot is taken without the benefit of a range-finder. 3. What is the windage in a 10mph crosswind at 300 yards and 400 yards? 6.5Crd@300 6.5Crd@400 and -- 270Win@300 270@400 -- 6.3" ------- 11.6" -------- and ----- 5.3" ----- 9.7" The one-inch savings by the 270 at 300 yards is probably insignificant, although it is an advantage and grows to 2"at 400 yards. 4. What are the impact velocities at 300 and 400 yards? 6.5Crd@300 6.5Crd@400 and -- 270Win@300 270@400 -- 2370 ------ 2207 ------- and ---- 2587 ----- 2429 This is probably insignificant because both rounds are well over 2000 fps all the way to 400 yards. Both remain over 2000 fps even at 500 yards. 5. What are the impact energies (in foot-pounds) at 300 and 400 yards? 6.5Crd-@300 6.5Crd@400 and -- 270Win@300 270@400 -- 1497 ------- 1298 ----- and ---- 1917 ----- 1689 Both rounds have a respectable 1500 ft# or more at 300 yards, although the Creedmoor starts to drop closer to marginal levels at 400 yards. This may only become significant with the largest of mule deer and less 6. What is the sectional density between the two rounds? 6.5Crd and -- 270Win .246 -- and -- .240 This is insignificant, especially when the relative momentum is considered in the next point. 7. In order to make the comparison more meaningful for estimating penetration, a line of comparison in "relative momentum" will be given as (SDxVelocity/48) for impacts at 300 and 400 yards. 6.5Crd@300 6.5Crd@400 and -- 270Win@300 270@400 -- 12.15 ------ 11.31 - - - - and ---- 12.94 ----- 12.15 This is likely insignificant since both bullets would be expected to effectively penetrate out to 400 yards. However, the calculation for the 270 at 400 equalled the 6.5 at 300 yards. 8. Finally, the recoil in foot-pounds (ft#) for both loads is given for a lightweight 7.2-pound rifle (This equals a 6# rifle plus 1.2# for scope and rings. 6.5Crd and --- 270Win 12.6ft# and -- 18.2ft# Here is where the Creedmoor shows a significant advantage. Even if the 270 rifle adds a few ounces for a standard action the recoil is still in a scale of 2 (6.5) to 3 (270). That is, the 6.5CM is only 2/3 the recoil of a 270, or, the 270Win is 1/2 more recoil than the 6.5CM Both of the loads above would be very similar in hunting characteristics and a hundred deer would need to be shot of each if any difference in killing or anchoring would be detected. Even so, the imprecisions of bullet placement and individual deer dispositions would even render a 100-deer test insufficient. This remains a thought experiment and each hunter would need to weigh the relative advantages downrange of one caliber versus the recoil advantage. This is where one makes real decisions. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| One of Us |
I’m one of those old farts that voted for the 6.5 Swede because I couldn’t vote for the 7x57. Though, I have probably killed just as many deer with the Swede as the 7mm Mauser. And I don’t feel handicapped with my 6.5 Swedemoor! | |||
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| one of us |
Actually, the most important criteria is accuracy. Like I have said a million times on AR, bullets don't travel in a straight line, they are an ever increasing cone. Your allowable wind and range estimation error is a function of that (as well as rate of drop and wind drift). I don't have a creed or a .270, but from what I read and see at the range, esp at 500 yards, tells me the Creed is inherently more accurate. Some cartridge designs just seem to be accurate: 308 Win, 404 Jeffrey in all its permutations (RUM, SAUM, Nosler, etc.), Lapau, and the Creedmoor. I can't remember the last time I saw a guy shooting a cartridge based on an 06 case really impress me, but then again, there aren't that many trying to hit small targets at 500 yards who use one. | |||
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| one of us |
Pastorp, I couldn't agree more, the 250-3000 is my all time favorite deer caliber. White tail or Mule Deer..and a good elk rifle up to a couple of hundred yards.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Well, you guys may be on to something. The 250 Savage is very close ballistically to the 257 Roberts on the poll list and the 257 Roberts has been surging forward. It now has 16 out of the 90 points and only trails the 270. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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One of Us |
The 257 Roberts is just the 7 thou slimmer American version of the 6.5x57 and should be taken seriously as the king of Buck and Doe. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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| one of us |
I know everyone is talking small bore but I still like the 358 Winchester. I can't have the slightest chance of one deer getting on the neighbors' place. DRT can be had with most calibers but seems more sure with the 358. Be Well. Packy | |||
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| One of Us |
Agree and would lower the distance to 300 yards. | |||
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| One of Us |
Practically, I agree with you, dogcat. Three hundred is a long ways out there. But I did take a couple of antelope in Chad with the 270, right at 400 yards. In those days I would pace off the yardage after the animal was down, before I had a rangefinder. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| One of Us |
Frankly, I didn’t answer this on the poll because I find the idea silly. Anything that can kill deer from any angle out to 400, is de facto an elk rifle at shorter range. The idea that a .270, as much as it’s not my favorite, is an all comers deer gun, but the .30-06 isn’t because it’s a multi purpose cartridge is silly. The .270 is capable of everything the .30-06 is in North America. I’m not a fan of .223 on deer, but it works with some care in shot selection... similarly, it probably can kill elk just fine at close distance with ideal shot selection and appropriate bullet selection- hell, the eskimos have been known to kill polar bear with it. So “deer only” means “I’m only talking about shooting deer” What I choose has more to do with my expected conditions than if I’m shooting a whitetail (or whatever). If I’m going deer hunting, odds are I’m using a .30-06. I have everything from .22 hornet to .50 BMG rifles... and if push came to shove, I could kill a deer with any of them. If I’m after a buck at 400, I will be shooting a .300 RUM or a .26 Nosler, mainly so I don’t need to muck around with worrying about the range -hold over- (or wind drift within reason) not because my .30-06 won’t kill them, if I hit it at 400. | |||
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| one of us |
Well said. | |||
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| One of Us |
Butler, your comments are fair, but the question still arises for situations: what about when elk will not be part of the equation? And if a 270 will anchor a deer better than a 243, but a 270, 30-06, 338, and 375 all kill deer equally (I underline 'equally' as a premise, not a fact), then the 270 would be better as easier to shoot. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| One of Us |
Like I said, I would be using a .30-06, most likely. A deer isn't that hard a target to hit. At the distances I am willing to shoot deer at (and it's less than 400 yards) I can hit them with a .30-06 as well as with anything else I own. I don't shoot a .223 or a 6mm appreciably better than the 06. If I was a paid culler shooting 20+ a day, then I'd be worried about the cumulative recoil affecting my shooting, but to do that I'd probably be using a suppressed rifle, most likely a .308... with the suppressor and night scope, it (the one I have) recoils less than a sporter .223 anyhow. I fail to see what going to the minimum that gets the job done buys me, and that to me, the best mix is something that you arbitrarily determined is a multi use rifle, which frankly, they all are, within some broad limits. | |||
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| One of Us |
Have you compared the muzzle energy of the 348 with the 30-06 or 308? | |||
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| One of Us |
A summary would be useful, again, at 99 votes. 9 (9%) 243 Win 16 (16%) 257 Roberts 5 (5%) 25-06 8 (8%) 260 Rem 9 (9%) 6.5 Creedmoor 15 (15%) 6.5x55 Swede 3 (3%) 264 WM 26 (26%) 270 Win 8 (8%) 7-08 Rem The three cartridges 260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 6.5x55 Swede have a similar case capacity and the same bore. Together they total 32 votes and probably represent the most popular answer to the question. Think about it: .264" bore and about 54 grains case capacity. The .264" is just marginally larger than the quarter bore (.257", a difference of only .007") although less than the 270's .277" by .013". So a plurality might recommend this level as a top line deer-only rifle, and a majority would recommend something less than the 270. We might group the 264 Win Mag (probably a mistake to have included in the poll), the 270, and the 7-08 together, totaling 37 and representing a "more powerful" option. Roughly a third (30) choose "small small-bore" 24 and 25 caliber, a third (35) choose a medium small-bore, 26 caliber, and a third (34) choose a larger small-bore, 27 and 28 caliber. Interesting. An assumption that underlies the poll is that a magnum is unnecessary for a best deer-only cartridge. Some agreement with such a framework can be seen in the two-thirds who would appear to say that a "long case" is unnecessary, with 65 outvoting the 34 votes of the "long case group," 25-06, 264WM, and 270. Also interesting. Finally, we can recognize that a majority thought that the 26-27 bores were preferable to 24-25 as a "best" deer-only cartridge. Naturally, we should not interpret this to say that 24-25 caliber were not adequate or even good, just that a majority thought that 26-27 showed an advantage and apparently were not put off by concerns about increased recoil. Noted. Between the shorter action 26's and the 27, the main difference is that the 270Win has a 200+ fps advantage over the 26's. One might speculate that under 300 yards these would be considered equivalent for hunting purposes. If hunting conditions would make over-300-yard shots a practical concern, then the 270 would need to be weighed against considerations of recoil. Voters appear fairly evenly divided at this point. There are a lot of rifles and calibers that make for excellent deer rifles and any hunter is advised to find a rifle that carries and handles well, and then practice with it so that one may use its full accuracy potential. After all, everyone would agree that putting the bullet on target is the most important step and can outweigh any other. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| One of Us |
Between the Bob, the Swede, and the "O'Connor" things haven't changed much in the last century. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| One of Us |
This is an excellent conclusion backed up by the more extensive summary details! | |||
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| One of Us |
How do you kill a pink elephant? You shoot him with a pink elephant gun. How do you kill a gray elephant? You shoot him with a gray elephant gun--right? Wrong. You grab his nose and hold him until he turns pink and then you shoot him with a pink elephant gun. | |||
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| One of Us |
I once shot an elephant in my pajamas. What he was doing in my pajamas, I’ll never know. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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| One of Us |
Well I would say for whitetail deer, and I won't say the magnums are too much cartridge, but will say they aren't needed. The longer action rifles for the 06 class of cartridges aren't really as heavy as they use to be. I have all the 6.5's, including the 260 and the 6.5 Creedmore, but my all time favorite for deer is the 7mm-08. I like it far better then the 308. I load the 139 grain Hornady in it and it puts deer down right there! Rick Jamison said once that the 260 Rem was the cartridge that if you designed a cartridge specifically for whitetail deer....it's the one. I don't totally agree. I've seen 243's put down many deer and they either went right down or didn't go far at all. I'm not seeing too much difference between the 260 and the 243. | |||
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One of Us |
There has not been a single cartridge mentioned that would be a better deer only round then a 308 pushing 150 gn slugs. Just as good, sure. But not better. Even an 8X57 has no flies on it as a deer round. NEED has got nothing to do with it. That being said, my favorite is the 7X57. | |||
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| One of Us |
What cart has killed more deer than any other? 30-30? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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| One of Us |
Wstrnhuntr, I agree with you that the 308 is an excellent deer cartridge. Excellent. I didn't list 30 calibers because they have traditionally been thought of as heavier cartridges that include elk. Yes, they probably should have been included in the survey because some would want to limit the 308 or 30-06 to deer and go bigger for elk. Well, maybe in the next survey. In any case, I think that the survey helpfully shows attitudes and expectations even with its limitations. Personally, I am one of those who would want more than a 308 for elk. Just because. And I demand an accurate rifle. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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One of Us |
I have had tremendous 1 shot kill success with the 25-06 and accubonds. It was a great favorite of the late Duncan Gilchrist because a light rifle could be built that held 5 rounds in the box and it is as flat shooting as most magnums like the 7mm Rem and 300 Weatherby. I picked that. I would have picked the 280/7x64 if you would have had that as an option. I really like the 7mm-06 as a round. Eventually I'll build a 280 Ackley. | |||
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| One of Us |
And if the 7x64 had been first there may never have been a 270, and the 30-06 may have been an 8mm-"06". +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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| One of Us |
.270 or .280Rem. | |||
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| One of Us |
Shoot any caliber you are comfortable with but I prefer the 6.5x55 or 7x57 and 130/140 grains... loaded on the mild side. Don't need anything more unless you are shooting for distance. Used to shoot 270/06...just made bigger holes. | |||
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| one of us |
OK boys. IF I shoot a 6.5 it will be the 6.5X54with 160 grn round nose from Hawk bullets. Be Well. Packy | |||
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| One of Us |
If a deer runs, walks or whatever for a long distance after being shot, it's easy to believe a bigger gun would have anchored the deer. Pure speculation that you'll never know. I made a well placed shot with a 30-06 on a yearling buck that knocked it down. Somehow that deer got to it's feet and staggered a couple hundred yards before giving it up. All vitals were gone. Never have had a .223 shot deer go that far. Am I implying a .223 more deadly. No, not at all. Just saying you never know until you pull the trigger and after that all the what if's are pure speculation. Trying to isolate it down to what will kill a deer but not an elk---good luck. | |||
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one of us |
Voted 25-06, but would have chosen 30-30 or 308 if offered. Managed recoil loading is available for both rounds and these have very little recoil. A Remington 7 or 600 is light enough for children as is a 94 trapper. | |||
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