quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


I will stick my neck out and say 90% of deer hunters have no business shooting at 500 yards.

I am always amazed by how many people, when talking about trajectory, discount a difference of two or three inches at 500 yards, saying you can't detect it in the field. (Typically seen when discussing load trajectories and the merits of one vs the other, discounting the fact that most people should be using a rangefinder for anything past 150 yards anyway.)

With an accurate rifle you can absolutely see a difference of two inches. In other words, dial two clicks below your 500 yard zero. If you don't see a difference, you shouldn't be shooting at an animal 500 yards away. Put another way: if your wobble area at 500 is two inches, you probably shouldn't be shooting at an animal.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


I will stick my neck out and say 90% of deer hunters have no business shooting at 500 yards.

I am always amazed by how many people, when talking about trajectory, discount a difference of two or three inches at 500 yards, saying you can't detect it in the field. (Typically seen when discussing load trajectories and the merits of one vs the other, discounting the fact that most people should be using a rangefinder for anything past 150 yards anyway.)

With an accurate rifle you can absolutely see a difference of two inches. In other words, dial two clicks below your 500 yard zero. If you don't see a difference, you shouldn't be shooting at an animal 500 yards away. Put another way: if your wobble area at 500 is two inches, you probably shouldn't be shooting at an animal.

Then we should not be hunting at all then, if are going to consider our wobbles.

In the real hunting world, where one shoots off a rucksack, rock, tree or shooting sticks, one WILL wobble.

Trouble is knowing when to pull the trigger.

I have no idea how people hunt deer in America, I am talking about my own hunts in Africa.

Almost all my shooting is off shooting sticks.

And I certainly wobble non stop!

Last year I shot a kongoni at 0ver 400 meters, off the shooting sticks.

Using a 375/404 which is sighted about an inch high at 100 yards.

I do not like, or make a habit of, shooting past 200 yards if I can help it.

But, when I do I seem to hit them.

I have had occasions when I have refused to take a shot at much closer range, all due to the wobbles!

They can be rather drastic wobbles when you have been running uphill chasing an animal, and as you come over the top and him standing looking back at you.

The wobbles are so large one can barely hit the hillside he is on, let alone the animal!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


I will stick my neck out and say 90% of deer hunters have no business shooting at 500 yards.

I am always amazed by how many people, when talking about trajectory, discount a difference of two or three inches at 500 yards, saying you can't detect it in the field. (Typically seen when discussing load trajectories and the merits of one vs the other, discounting the fact that most people should be using a rangefinder for anything past 150 yards anyway.)

With an accurate rifle you can absolutely see a difference of two inches. In other words, dial two clicks below your 500 yard zero. If you don't see a difference, you shouldn't be shooting at an animal 500 yards away. Put another way: if your wobble area at 500 is two inches, you probably shouldn't be shooting at an animal.

Then we should not be hunting at all then, if are going to consider our wobbles.

In the real hunting world, where one shoots off a rucksack, rock, tree or shooting sticks, one WILL wobble.

Trouble is knowing when to pull the trigger.

I have no idea how people hunt deer in America, I am talking about my own hunts in Africa.

Almost all my shooting is off shooting sticks.

And I certainly wobble non stop!

Last year I shot a kongoni at 0ver 400 meters, off the shooting sticks.

Using a 375/404 which is sighted about an inch high at 100 yards.

I do not like, or make a habit of, shooting past 200 yards if I can help it.

But, when I do I seem to hit them.

I have had occasions when I have refused to take a shot at much closer range, all due to the wobbles!

They can be rather drastic wobbles when you have been running uphill chasing an animal, and as you come over the top and him standing looking back at you.

The wobbles are so large one can barely hit the hillside he is on, let alone the animal!

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
A postscript for those who have mentioned the 7x57. Hopefully, they would vote 7-08 for that. The 7x57 and 7-08 are quite similar ballistically.

The 280 and 7mmRM were not listed since most would not limit them to deer-size. I have been inconsistent here because the 264WinMag is pretty similar to the 7mmRM.

If one extracts for caliber the groupings are interesting so far at 24, 25, 26, 27, 28 caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

I agree with you on the 7-08...like the 300 H&H, I think a lot of guys love the nostalgia even though there are better rounds out there.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
I voted for the .243 only because .222 or .223 was not included. Personally I don't take 400 or 500 yard shots. Put a bullet of any size in a deer's heart, lung or liver, you have a dead deer. BTW this would apply to elk--the bullet in the heart lung or liver and a .243 would do that.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

I agree with you on the 7-08...like the 300 H&H, I think a lot of guys love the nostalgia even though there are better rounds out there.

The 300 H&H is also such a great looking round.

If I had the money to get an absolute top end wood gun made by D'Arcy Echols or his equivalent I would be torn between the 270, 300 H&H and 375 H&H. I think my choice would probably just come down to the time and day I made the choice but I probably have a slight leaning to the 300 H&H. If it was a 300 H&H and I had lots of money left I think it would be a black cheque to Ed Weatherby for a 300 Weatherby.

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I have taken 1/2 my whitetails with a 243 with little fuss.
If there are areas I do not want to risk following a hit animal I would choose a 270.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

I think I would make mine a .30-06 - and I am not really a huge fan, but nothing is more classic except perhaps a .375 H&H. 270 would be in the running too, but I would rather have a .280.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
416Tanzan--Many years ago, before I saw youth make many one shot kills with .222/.223 I thought too small, wont work---wrong. Bullet placement is the trump. Mono bullet---not needed. 55 grain cup and core such as Remington Corelokt all that is needed. Take those grandkids out and if they can hit something the size of a basketball, they can hit the kill zone and with their young eyes, and a gun that is not stomping them, most likely they'll be well inside a basketball. BTW I didn't say .243 BEST for elk, said it would work, wouldn't be my first choice, but I would take the right shot with one. 25-06 would not be my choice for a moose, but I did see a young lad make a clean one shot kill on a moose with one.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
416Tanzan--That 6 mile tracking job on a cob sounds like possibly poor shot placement to me. Where was it hit? Poor shot placement from a larger cal would have had same results. I have no experience with shooting impalas---do prefer Ford's but don't dislike Chevy's enough to shoot an Impala)

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
416Tanzan--That 6 mile tracking job on a cob sounds like possibly poor shot placement to me. Where was it hit? Poor shot placement from a larger cal would have had same results. I have no experience with shooting impalas---do prefer Ford's but don't dislike Chevy's enough to shoot an Impala)

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
BTW what is a cob?

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Originally posted by Atkinson:
Ive know a couple of gun scribes that could track a bird six miles, they used a piece of machinery called a type writer back then. It also killed deer with a pistol at 6oo yards on the run....

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Out of 69 votes:
243Wn -- 5 -- 07%

257Rm -- 10 --14%
25--06 -- 5 -- 07%

260Rm -- 5 -- 07%
6.5Crd -- 8 --12%
6.5Swd -- 6 -- 09%
264wM -- 3 -- 04%
270Wn -- 21 --30%
7--08R -- 6 -- 09%

quote:

Your entire poll is biased by the choices you presented. There was no 7RM, .308, or .30-06.

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Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

Such a limitation removes the need for 30 caliber, in my opinion. The 308 and 30-06, plus magnums, all make excellent deer rifles but they are also intended to be used for larger species.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Thank you for the responses. I am learning something. After a week it may be good to summarize:

quote:

Out of 69 votes:
243Wn -- 5 -- 07%

257Rm -- 10 --14%
25--06 -- 5 -- 07%

260Rm -- 5 -- 07%
6.5Crd -- 12 --12%
6.5Swd -- 6 -- 09%
264wM -- 3 -- 04%
270Wn -- 21 --30%
7--08R -- 6 -- 09%

What am I learning?

Surprisingly, only a few, less than 10% consider the 243 Win to be to be "best-deer-only," 99% adequate for deer and not a dual caliber for elk or larger game. Since the other choices are all ballistically superior to the 243, that means that those <10% considered all of the more powerful cartridges reasonable elk cartridges. But 90%+ would draw the line farther up. Maybe we should have included "none of the above".

The 25 caliber [6.3mm] is the surprising figure. Ten out of 69 supported the 257 Roberts. It is quite a great "sleeper" cartridge, overshadowed by the 243 in general popularity but retaining recognition for its appealing qualities. Putting the 243 and 257 Roberts together, we also see that almost 80% consider only the larger cartridges to be adequate elk rounds in their own right. And the 25 caliber itself, that is the 257 Roberts and 25-06, along with the 243, account for 2/7 28% of those stipulating a "best deer-only" cartridge.

The poll also confirms my thoughts about the 26 caliber. This is where a large number drew the line between "deer only" and "deer plus larger game": 19 out of 69 without the magnum 28%, 22 out of 69 including the magnum 32%. The inclusion of the 264WM was probably a mistake on my part since it overlooks the 6.5 PRC and 6.5/284, which are halfway between the Creed and the Mag. Those latter two are ballistically fairly close to the 270 Win and would have given the poll more homogeneity. After all, after the 264WM the next option would theoretically be a 7mmRM. The larger magnums like 7mm, 300, and 338 were not included as "deer-only" be definition, so the 264 should probably have been left out, too. Nevertheless, 4% considered the 264WM to be on the light side for elk and best restricted to deer-only, where it dominated all the other deer-only cartridges. So the 260, 6.5Creed and 6.5 Swede make a natural group with the same caliber and very similar case capacity. The Creed only stands out by demanding a fast-twist barrel. Together their 19 votes ranks just beside the next item on the poll.

The 270 Winchester stands out as the run-away individual selection as the best "deer-only" cartridge. Both Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor would take satisfaction in this. Elmer would say, "Yes, but the 270 is not an elk cartridge!" Jack would smile and retort that the 270 stands out as supreme for a deer-only choice. [Yes, this is partially a reflection of the poll where the 280, 7mmRM, 308 and 30-06 were defined to be dual-purpose cartridges including elk-sized game, although the 270 and 280 are tweedle-dum and tweedle-dee.] This poll and the choices also confirm the divisions within AccRel itself. "Medium bore" cartridges are defined to be 270 and up, while the .264 and below are "small bore". 42 out of 69, a distinctive majority would agree with this. We could paraphrase this as saying that the majority would not recommend "small bores" to be used on elk or larger.

Finally, we come to the small-capacity 7mm cartridge. Six votes, almost 10%, chose this as the best "deer-only". Since the 270 shoots flatter and with more energy, we may interpret the choice for 7-08 as a vote that the 270 is a dual-purpose deer+elk round. The 7-08, apparently, would belong with the 24-26 caliber deer-only cartridges. This was probably a close call for the poll since the 270 only marginally outclasses the 7-08 ballistically.

What have we learned? That the 26-27 caliber [.264--.277, 6.5--6.8] is the divide on the best DEER-ONLY cartridge. For those who do not anticipate using a rifle for elk or moose, then the 26 to 27 caliber range is where the majority would recommend starting a search for a deer rifle.

We'll see how these results turn out should others want to join the poll of the next week.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Geeze AZ, your a little tough on some great rounds!! and a bit contradictory I think, not real sure!

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Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
...As for the Roberts, like its pappy the 7x57, it is too long for a short action, so given that, why not a .25-06? Another cartridge that lives only due to the nostalgia factor, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Alec Torres:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
...As for the Roberts, like its pappy the 7x57, it is too long for a short action, so given that, why not a .25-06? Another cartridge that lives only due to the nostalgia factor, IMO.

Well, I have a .257 Roberts LH Short Action Dakota 76 and it feeds 110 grain Accubond Nosler factory loads perfectly. Did I get a freak rifle, or are you just pitching the 25-'06? (great cartridge also).

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Originally posted by packrattusnongratus:
I'm thinking, still, about short actions, weights, and what I have found to be good for us in the past. I know I'm a 358 nut, but the 358 Winchester is a great DRT deer rifle. I like the 200 gr SPCL from Remington when it is available along with the 200 gr rn for the 35 Remington. It hits hard and rarely do you have to track anything. The medium bore guns do well. 348, 33, and 358 Winchesters are in the midrange DRT calibers I like I have two of them and they work. Be Well. Packy