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Picture of Fury01
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It is the way of most things it seems Todd. Facts are the last component of opinions and most folks would rather they just Rest In Peace while their individual bias runs out in front.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2107 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of crshelton
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Todd "Ballistic Masturbation " ???

Great term.

If it is true that the early DG benchmark velocity was a .458 bullet at 2150 fps, what is all this fuss about?

2150 fps still works according to a friend that took ele and buff with NF bullets at that MV. Maybe faster MV is good for hunters that shoot DG at 200 and 300 yards.


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Posts: 2109 | Location: Republic of Texas | Registered: 25 May 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of 458Win
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quote:
Originally posted by crshelton:
Todd "Ballistic Masturbation " ???

Great term.

If it is true that the early DG benchmark velocity was a .458 bullet at 2150 fps, what is all this fuss about?

2150 fps still works according to a friend that took ele and buff with NF bullets at that MV. Maybe faster MV is good for hunters that shoot DG at 200 and 300 yards.


Jack Lott claimed numerous times that a .458 500 grain Bullet giving an honest 2150 fps muzzle velocity was ALL he wanted and was hoping for his longer design.


Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master guide
CFII
NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
 
Posts: 4025 | Location: Bristol Bay | Registered: 24 April 2004Reply With Quote
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Picture of Fury01
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And the fact that the 458wm was always and is still that and much more was the purpose of the 234 pages. The facts about the 458wm and the 458 Lott were just residual learning that we came upon and proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Those that want to learn can and will. Those that don’t, well won’t.
My Best to Old Ugly Phil.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2107 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Jack Lott was no better or worse than any of the other ego driven gun writers who promoted cartridges named after themselves.


Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master guide
CFII
NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
 
Posts: 4025 | Location: Bristol Bay | Registered: 24 April 2004Reply With Quote
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Picture of chuck375
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I've always been puzzled by the fact that if Jack Lott didn't think the 458 Win Mag was enough for buffalo, he didn't jump up to a 500 Jeffery or 505 Gibbs. I don't think a buffalo would be impressed by the extra 150 fps in velocity


Regards,

Chuck



"There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"
 
Posts: 4194 | Location: Colorado Springs | Registered: 01 January 2008Reply With Quote
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Picture of Fury01
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Once folks start down the road of excusing Bad shooting and relying on "More Power" the end is never pretty.
Phil explained it very well.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2107 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of 458Win
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Jack, as both editor and writer, for the old Peterson's Guns & Ammo BIG BORE RIFLES book told his story of the buffalo hunt with Wally Johnson in Mozambique. He admits that he gut shot the bull that tossed him and it had nothing at all to do with the 458 ! And Wally picked up Jacks rifle and killed the bull.
Then Jack continues on praising the 458 Win.

About a dozen year later, after his design had been introduced, in an updated edition of Big Bores and a letter to Wolfe Publishing, Jack has nothing to say good about the Winchester version and led the readers to believe his getting bashed was the fault of the 458 Win !!

One or two high profile writers then took it upon themselves to promote Jack's updated version and to bad mouth the 458 Win every chance they got.


Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master guide
CFII
NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
 
Posts: 4025 | Location: Bristol Bay | Registered: 24 April 2004Reply With Quote
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Picture of Todd Williams
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quote:
Originally posted by crshelton:
Todd "Ballistic Masturbation " ???

Great term.

If it is true that the early DG benchmark velocity was a .458 bullet at 2150 fps, what is all this fuss about?

2150 fps still works according to a friend that took ele and buff with NF bullets at that MV. Maybe faster MV is good for hunters that shoot DG at 200 and 300 yards.


Wasn't my term for the thread. That was Ray Ray's term.
 
Posts: 8174 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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Picture of 416Tanzan
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quote:
2150 fps
what is all this fuss about?


Well, some of us like a little more MV. I would like 2400fps, and to be honest I really want 2600fps. I like to walk with one gun in the forest and to be ready for an easy 300 yards across a flat opening in the forest. But I agree with Ray that recoil gets old as we get older. At the moment I think that a 350grain .416" at 2600fps in a nifty little Ruger still sounds pretty good, but maybe Ray is right, so perhaps a 270gn .375" at 2700fps in a 375Ruger would be even more fun, for longer.
It ought to do hartebeest or impala at 300yards just fine. And DG up close.


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4248 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of 458Win
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quote:
Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
quote:
2150 fps
what is all this fuss about?


Well, some of us like a little more MV. I would like 2400fps, and to be honest I really want 2600fps. I like to walk with one gun in the forest and to be ready for an easy 300 yards across a flat opening in the forest. But I agree with Ray that recoil gets old as we get older. At the moment I think that a 350grain .416" at 2600fps in a nifty little Ruger still sounds pretty good, but maybe Ray is right, so perhaps a 270gn .375" at 2700fps in a 375Ruger would be even more fun, for longer.
It ought to do hartebeest or impala at 300yards just fine. And DG up close.


From your post it sounds like you prefer the 460 Wby


Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
Alaska Master guide
CFII
NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
 
Posts: 4025 | Location: Bristol Bay | Registered: 24 April 2004Reply With Quote
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Picture of 416Tanzan
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quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:
quote:
Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
quote:
2150 fps
what is all this fuss about?


Well, some of us like a little more MV. I would like 2400fps, and to be honest I really want 2600fps. I like to walk with one gun in the forest and to be ready for an easy 300 yards across a flat opening in the forest. But I agree with Ray that recoil gets old as we get older. At the moment I think that a 350grain .416" at 2600fps in a nifty little Ruger still sounds pretty good, but maybe Ray is right, so perhaps a 270gn .375" at 2700fps in a 375Ruger would be even more fun, for longer.
It ought to do hartebeest or impala at 300yards just fine. And DG up close.


From your post it sounds like you prefer the 460 Wby


I thought about building a 460 a decade ago but built a 500 AccRel instead. The 500 is a nice caliber. It does 500 Jeffrey ballistics in a Ruger Hawkeye package and is especially efficient with lighter monolithic like the GSC 450gn and CEB 350 Raptor and 400.


+-+-+-+-+-+-+

"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
Posts: 4248 | Registered: 10 June 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of Fury01
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How about a Barnes 350 TSX at 2680 in the 458 WM? If we had Phil's favorite 400 X in the TSX available to hand loaders we could trade a little velocity, still could make near 2550, for some BC and still make that easy 300 yard shot.
I do honor the recoil issue. My 30-06 and my 260 Remington address that issue for me but the 458 goes to the deer woods every year with me for it's fair share of days.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2107 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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I would love to see the 400 grain TSX released to the public.
I would be very satisfied with 2300 FPS, and delighted with anything over that.
 
Posts: 389 | Location: Wasilla, Alaska | Registered: 06 February 2006Reply With Quote
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many have asked including myself and Barnes just says that Buffalo Bore has the rights to that bullet, I am going to try the 402 gr bullet that Hammer Bullets make and see what happens but will have to wait till it gets warmer it is 6 degrees right now and wind chill makes it -10 below
 
Posts: 95 | Location: Stickney,So Dakota | Registered: 12 January 2009Reply With Quote
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Yep, I would imagine that Buffalo Bore has some money in the manufacturing of those 400 TSX and some type of contractual agreement.
I would really like what I assume the higher BC of the 400 grain TSX. The Hammer Bullets are interesting, but I have not looked into the .458 versions.

For closer range lighter bullets, I have some North Fork 350 grain cup points. I wanted to try the 325 grain version in 45-70 and the 400 grain in the 458 Winchester and Lott. But, the 350 grain is all that I could find.
I also have some Lehigh 380 grain copper flat points, originally purchased with the 45-70 in mind.
Both of these probably have the BC of a coffee cup. But, should be effective at 100 yards and under, if I come up with a decently accurate load.
I have a few 450 grain TSX and 400 grain Swift A-Frame that I also want to try.

Lol, copy that weather restriction!


quote:
Originally posted by hydehunter:
many have asked including myself and Barnes just says that Buffalo Bore has the rights to that bullet, I am going to try the 402 gr bullet that Hammer Bullets make and see what happens but will have to wait till it gets warmer it is 6 degrees right now and wind chill makes it -10 below
 
Posts: 389 | Location: Wasilla, Alaska | Registered: 06 February 2006Reply With Quote
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you can also make your own 400 gr bullets just cut the bottom off at the first grove and smooth everything out and do a very slight bevel on the base try it with a 450 but I think you need to use the 500 gr
 
Posts: 95 | Location: Stickney,So Dakota | Registered: 12 January 2009Reply With Quote
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I agree on the modification possibility. I have followed, and still do, RIP’s continual research/experimentation with everything 458 Winchester.
But, with my intended shooting distances, I think the 350 grain cup point should work well. I have a few boxes of these on hand. I would have preferred to try the 400 cup points in the 458 Winchester & Lott, and the 325 grain version in 45-70’s. But, I think these should perform well for 100 yards and under shooting even in the 45-70.

The 45-70 load would be a replacement for 420 grain hard cast flat points. I do want to try some of the Lehigh 380 grain copper flat points also. The Lehigh may be best for it.
The 458 Winchester & Lott are just mostly for the hell of it. Though, I definitely think they would be excellent on closer range moose and bear. If these don’t pan out for my rifles, I will stick with the 450 grain TSX and/or A-Frames. I moose hunt the most with a 375 Ruger or 416 Ruger.
I will check out those Hammer bullets. I am aware that many have very good results with them.



quote:
Originally posted by hydehunter:
you can also make your own 400 gr bullets just cut the bottom off at the first grove and smooth everything out and do a very slight bevel on the base try it with a 450 but I think you need to use the 500 gr
 
Posts: 389 | Location: Wasilla, Alaska | Registered: 06 February 2006Reply With Quote
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Those 402 grain Hammer bullets, sound promising. I look forward to seeing the velocity that you get from those.
 
Posts: 389 | Location: Wasilla, Alaska | Registered: 06 February 2006Reply With Quote
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