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458 winchester magnum

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28 November 2020, 11:33
RIP
458 winchester magnum
Irony has been called the highest form of humor.
Democrats and Lottites have similar incapacity to appreciate it.

The .458 Winchester Magnum was as powerful as it could be with the antique bullets of its day.
If Jack Lott had been using anything with faster MV than his .458 WM on that day in 1959,
his failed FMJ "solid" on the second shot would have failed even worse.
That was after the first gut shot with a soft he misplaced on "Black Death" Mbogo.
That is darkly ironic.
Plumb hilarious.

Now we have the better bullets that happen to be longer in length but can be driven faster with better results.

The .458 Lott data near bottom of previous page serves as starting loads for the .458 MAGA
with newer Alliant powders and the TBSH 500-grainer.



So many choices !

The .458 MAGA is also capable of .458 WM versatility, the most versatile rifle ever.

You will find the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum to be the best of all possible cast bullet shooters.
Proper dies and loading techniques for .458 MAGA AND .458 WM:

What you have for case mouth belling and neck expanding of the .45-70 Govt. will be useful for the .458 WM as well as .458 MAGA.

I have and use .458 WM die sets from RCBS, Lee, Redding, and Hornady.

The Redding belling plug is too short and will leave you with a wasp waisted loaded round.
It may size the case body a little tighter, not needed.

The RCBS is the best 3-die set except for the bullet seating plugs they supply.

The Lee seater plug is best of all shapes, will handle any bullet nose from bluntest to pointiest.

And the Lee Factory Crimp Die is a must, same one works for .458 WM and .458 MAGA. Wink

I also bought some over-sized expander plugs that fit in a Lee die, up to .461" diameter,
and powder compression plugs for BP loads,
from either Track of the Wolf or Buffalo Arms Co., or both.
They work for all my .45-cal BPCR needs too.

NB: Best to have a set of .458 WM RCBS dies and a set of Lee dies, including the Factory Crimp die.
I would need those to do all that I do with cast bullets in the .458 WM and .458 MAGA.


Size your bullets to .461" for the .459" groove of the Winchester M70.
The bigger and harder alloy, powder-coat painted, cast bullets I make are passed through a .460" Lee bullet-sizing die, and they spring back to .461".

Soft lead .459" diameter, grease-lubed bullets for the smaller-grooved .45-70 Govt. seem to shoot well in the .458 WinM if you keep velocities down to 1400 fps.

Hard-alloy, PC-painted, .461-inchers with gas checks are accurate to 2200 fps.
Any faster may be more than the bullet can tolerate on impact, IMHO.

patriot
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

The longer load plus higher pressure is a Lott of fun.
But three point three four and sixty thousand will get it done,
if the rifle is chambered for the four five eight Winchester.
Believe the Three Mahohbohs, or you're a monkey's sister.
28 November 2020, 23:38
boom stick
How bout 458 TRUMP?
Time to
Recognize
Ultimate
Magnum
Perfection
Big Grin
It will go over Bigly and be Huuuuuge.


quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
New name for the wildcat, again.
Abbreviations repeated again for clarity:

.458 WM is for the .458 Winchester Magnum to SAAMI standards, it will do it all.

.458 MAGA is for the .458 Magnum American Great Always, the wildcatted .458 WM,
which is allowed to reach same COL and pressure as the .458 Lott.
If you do that, you will leave the .458 Lott in the rearview mirror.



577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
29 November 2020, 00:03
RIP
quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
How bout 458 TRUMP?
Time to
Recognize
Ultimate
Magnum
Perfection
Big Grin
It will go over Bigly and be Huuuuuge.

Excellent idea.
But, let's make that:

Truly
Realized
Ultimate
Magnum
Perfection

Emphasis on truth and reality.



Easier to speak and type than ".458 Winchester Magnum."
Soothing to the righteous rifleman to honor POTUS 45 who has been truly maligned and defrauded by an evil cabal,
just like the 45-bore .458 Winchester Magnum.
.458 TRUMP it is.
Both written and spoken in all capital letters. Big Grin
It surely trumps the .458 Lott aka the empty-suit .458 BIDEN: Badly Ignorant Democratic Enslavement Nonsense.
The .458 BIDEN is best reserved for Mark Sullivan to use on a cape buffalo's scrotum to get him ready for the scripted unreality show.

patriot
.458 TRUMP
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

29 November 2020, 01:02
jerry mcdonald
Damn, Thanks again for all the legwork RIP, after reading your post I cut open every box I bought, they all have 26 bullets inside, at the old price of damn near 5 bucks a bullet, that's a hell of a bonus, especially at near half off the old price.

Welp, I guess doing a good deed paid off today, an old scared man brought me 62 38 special cases last night, Wife was going to run into town this morning for groceries, I dropped her off and hit the local gun shop for some small pistol primers for the old mans ammo, what did I see glaring at me on the powder shelf? Accurate 2460 powder, grabbed two pounds, the guy working was nice and sold me two boxes of primers in case any more old scared folk show up with no ammo!

Got the groceries home, loaded the old mans ammo, tilled in the lime, nitrogen and triple 13, just stacked another rick of split firewood on the back porch, what a day, I'm too tired to go hunting.

Have fresh chrono batteries when my rifle gets back from JES, seriously considering leaving this rifle a big bore iron sight basher, no scope, just like my old turn bolt 505 Gibbs, 45 and 50, two for two, anything walking!
29 November 2020, 06:54
RIP
Jerry,

Goodness gracious you been busy today !
Glad you suggested the TBSH solid before you got swamped with chores, buy a donkey for that.
Since you said there was an extra bullet in all your boxes ... by the time I got back to MidwayUSA to reorder, there were only 3 more boxes left. Smiler
I have seen your 3.575" COL and raised you 0.005",
since the .458 TRUMP allows 2.505" maximum brass length. Cool

Glad you found some AA-2460.
I will load some of the TBSH with it too, and compare results. After I fire that Federal factory ammo I will have some Federal brass to see how close it is to their recipe, if I can find that Alliant Power Pro Varmint powder
to try in both .458 WM and .458 TRUMP.
Until then, I will use Hornady or WW-Super brass with AA-2460, AA-2230, or H4895. tu2





Seat that Sledgehammer on a full case of powder and it is "locked and loaded" quite well,
and trumps the .458 Lott.

For lesser recoil and quicker follow up shots in an elephant culling operation,
2150 to 2200 fps with the SAAMI .458 WM is recommended for those 500-gr Sledgehammers.
Also a good tracker handing you the ammo is advisable,
plus an ammo carrier with 6 extra rounds on your offhand wrist.
Try to get the cow and calf herd by braining the matriarch first, then the rest will mill around her.
If tackling the bulls, brain the biggest first and hop up on him to get the drop on the rest of them hightailing it like "every man for himself."
Best have two other experienced shooters with you if tackling the bulls.
Never more than three shooters total.
Less likely that way to shoot each other in the pandemonium.
By regular culling the species may be saved from destroying itself by destroying its own habitat.
Might be what Covid-19 is all about.
Scientific laboratory experiments have shown that crowding rats together turns them into Democrats,
just like in real life.
patriot
.458 TRUMP
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

29 November 2020, 16:35
jerry mcdonald
Good work RIP, in haste the other night I didn't measure my brass length, just grabbed a fired piece from the bag, FL sized it and set a 500gr TBSH in the last groove for 3.575 inch, after reading your info, I do need to get a Lee FCD ordered.

My powder man up in Ft Smith has all the Alliant powders, Varmint and 2000MR will make the 458 3.575 sing a hard song! my rifle sans scope, mounts and rings weighed 9.25 pounds as a 375, it may come back and an 8.5lb Thumper with a .450/.458 hole in the barrel, as said many times before, these rifles may be carried 10 miles a day in Africa, and fired once or twice, i'll take that line of thought!..........I never once felt or even thought about recoil from my 577 double shooting a hippo on dry ground at 16 yards with his face in the grass, or cape buffalo through the river reeds at spitting distance, it ALL remains more than good.
30 November 2020, 03:28
boom stick
I think the 458 TRUMP is best suited for the Weatherby. I think that is more his style.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
30 November 2020, 05:17
RIP
quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
I think the 458 TRUMP is best suited for the Weatherby. I think that is more his style.

No, that is how he might have thought when he was a Democrat playboy.
Since becoming a Republican he is a changed man.

Truly
Realized
Ultimate
Magnum
Perfection

That describes POTUS 45 and the .458 TRUMP quite well.
30 November 2020, 06:00
RIP
quote:
Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
Good work RIP, in haste the other night I didn't measure my brass length, just grabbed a fired piece from the bag, FL sized it and set a 500gr TBSH in the last groove for 3.575 inch, after reading your info, I do need to get a Lee FCD ordered.

You must have grabbed a 2.500" piece of brass.
No need to trim the case until it gets past .458 TRUMP maximum of 2.505".
You never want to trim shorter than 2.500" if you can heppitt, whether for .458 WM or .458 TRUMP.
There is 0.020" for case stretch on firing, past 2.500" SAAMI maximum for .458 WM.
That is more generous than with most sporting cartridges.


My powder man up in Ft Smith has all the Alliant powders, Varmint and 2000MR will make the 458 3.575 sing a hard song!

Cool beans, keep us posted of any results with those Alliant Power Pro powders in the .458 WM or .458 TRUMP, for THE MISSION.
Perusing the Alliant web site leads me to believe, unless I am confused, that
Varmint is a spherical, single based, "Light Rifle" powder.
1200-R is a spherical, double-based, especially temperature stable "Rifle" powder.
2000-MR is a spherical, single-based, "Medium Rifle" powder.
4000-MR is a spherical, single-based, "Magnum Rifle" powder.
AR-Comp is an extruded, single-based, especially temperature stable "Rifle" powder.


... my rifle sans scope, mounts and rings weighed 9.25 pounds as a 375, it may come back and an 8.5lb Thumper with a .450/.458 hole in the barrel, as said many times before, these rifles may be carried 10 miles a day in Africa, and fired once or twice, i'll take that line of thought!..........I never once felt or even thought about recoil from my 577 double shooting a hippo on dry ground at 16 yards with his face in the grass, or cape buffalo through the river reeds at spitting distance, it ALL remains more than good.


The M70 Super Grade .458 WM from 2011-2012 (FN/SC-made) is 9.0 pounds in walnut with 24" barrel and 0.730" muzzle diameter,
no scope bases or nuthin', iron sights only.
It has a slightly shorter knoxform and more pronounced initial taper than the .375 H&H M70 Classic Stainless.
The latter tapers more gradually over the 24" length but ends up 0.720" (ten thou smaller) for muzzle diameter.
The .458 WM taper changes to less near the muzzle,
to maintain the diameter at muzzle.
I like the 9.0-pound weight for iron sights only on a .458 WM.
4 rounds of ammo will add about a half pound.

If the rebore lightens your .375 H&H very much, and a lighter stock is needed for balance and/or masochism,
the Bell & Carlson M70 long action stock weighs only 2 pounds, Medalist style like on the Winchester Extreme Weather M70 models.
BTW, B&C is now making ("NEW!") a stock for the Ruger M77 Mark II and Hawkeye.
It, like their M98 & Mk X Mauser stocks weighs about 2.25 pounds.
The M70 stock is more svelte apparently.
The CZ 550 Magnum stock from B&C weighs 2.5 pounds.
An HS Precision M70 long action stock I have weighs 2.5 pounds also.
All these synthetic stocks come with recoil pads, paint, swivel studs, and full bedding blocks.
30 November 2020, 08:01
RIP
Had a great day, at home on the range today.
46 degrees F and the noon sun broke through the clouds of a perfect day, intermittent breeze,
mostly calm.
Rain turning to snow tonight, temperature falling.
I beat it.

The 24"-barreled .458 WM Winchester M70 Super Grade Safari Rifle was charming with express sights only,
5-yard chronograph, 50-yard targets, simply mahvelous.
Six factory loads and one home-grown, slow-moving, heavyweight, cast bullet load were tested against the express sights as they came from the factory.
Surprisingly, all the factory loads landed roughly one to two inches to left and one to two inches low at 50 yards, for centers of POI.
With no sight adjustment, the 579-gr FNGC-PCP,
was nicely 2" high and windage perfect at 50 yards.
41.5 grains of Blackhorn 209 performed like a bigger charge weight of BP (except for lesser recoil).
A cloud of smoke and sulfurous odor got my neighbor shooter laughing as the white smoke engulfed his shooting bench,
thanks to a gentle breeze blowing his way.
Good for giggles after 27 rounds of the noisier smokeless factory loads:


5 shots: Federal Premium, Premium Safari "Cape Shok" 500-gr Woodleigh HYDRO with feed cap, advertised MV = 2050 fps
BC = 0.260
5-yard vel. 2046 fps, corrected to MV = 2062 fps so 12 fps faster than advertised.
Cool


5 shots: Federal Fusion Safari, 500-gr Soft Nose (ogived FN), advertised MV = 2090 fps
BC = 0.280
5-yard vel. 2177 fps, corrected to MV = 2192 fps !!! 102 fps faster than advertised, even on a 46*F day.
clap


5 shots: Hornady Dangerous Game Series, Superformance 500-gr DGS (FN steel FMJ), advertised MV = 2140 fps
BC = 0.295
5-yard vel. 2121 fps, corrected to MV = 2135 fps


3 shots (that's all I had on hand): Hornady Dangerous Game Series, Superformance 500-gr DGX (Soft FN, steel jacketed), advertised MV = 2140 fps
BC = 0.295
5-yard vel. 2132 fps, corrected to MV = 2146 fps

Those two Hornady 500-grainers taken together average 2140.5 fps. Again, same day, same rifle, 46*F day, Hornady gets a passing score. tu2


5 shots: Barnes VOR-TX Ammunition, 450-gr TSX FB (monometal copper HP), advertised MV = 2240 fps
BC = 0.369
5-yard vel. 2180 fps, corrected to MV = 2192 fps !!! 48 fps less than claimed, also on a 46*F day.
Same velocity as the Federal Fusion 500-grainer.
Sad way to make once-fired brass.
thumbdown


4 shots (that's all I had on hand): Winchester SUPER-X, 510-gr Soft Point (RN, non-bonded, gilding metal jacket), advertised MV = 2040 fps
BC = 0.275
5-yard vel. 2060 fps, corrected to MV = 2075 fps !!! 35 fps faster than advertised, capable of more.
That was the last of my old "White Box" stuff.
tu2
Winchester ammo of decades ago was a victim of saboteurs, most likely Democrats.
No need to get a complex about it.
30 November 2020, 08:30
RIP
Another shocker:
My Blackhorn 209 load with the .461"/ 579-grain cast bullet only averaged 1217 fps at 46*F, in the .459"-grooved Super Grade .458 WM 24-incher.

In the 25" Shilen at 87 degrees F, my final MV correction for that was 1406 fps.
I estimated the Shilen grooves to be 0.4585" diameter by my calipers on soft lead slug.
I call it 0.459"-grooved,
because the McGowen was clearly 0.458" by same method.

I like it anyway, so I have a new cast-bullet-shooter for iron sights.
It is fun !
Like unleashing 14 or 15 .22 LR rimfire shots all at once.
And it shoots where it is pointed.
3 shots into 1-3/8" at 50 yards, about as good as I can do with a shallow V and big bead.
2" high at 50 yards should be 2" low at 100 yards,
maximum ordinate of 2.01" high at 48 yards, zeroed at 85 yards with the low express leaf.

If I pop up the second leaf, I might be able to shoot usefully to 150 yards !
No recoil ! hilbily

I will be able to shoot it from the back position if I get some Soule sights inletted at the heel of the butt.
Selous used about the same ballistics for the Big Five or Six,
not to mention the bison herds culled with same.
patriot
.458 TRUMP
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

30 November 2020, 22:20
Hannay
quote:
Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
More great work Ron.

You know it would be good if this thread could somehow be put into a very long single page so "Find" could used.

Maybe it cud be saved a page at a time into single Word or Excel file. Perhaps Notepad might be the way.


Well, I recently took the plunge and have BEGNO's Browning 458 Win Mag on the way. I tend to agree with Mike here, and I find the forum search feature rather cumbersome. And there's a lot of information I'd like to try and digest!

So... this morning I used a very fast internet connection, some html code, and Adobe Acrobat to produce a PDF of the first 222 pages of this thread.

A little different than Mike's suggestion - this includes all the photos, and I had to divide the file into 3 parts; use Acrobat's "reduce file size" feature, then recombine the file to create a single 310 MB file.

You could send this to your printer, but it is 6773 pages(!) so it might take awhile. Also, pages where someone pasted a huge image will have very small print.

But if you want to download your own copy, it's here: First 222 pages.

I hope someone will find this useful.




Muskox-Greenland, 2020
Roe buck and muntjac in England, 2019
Unkomaas Valley, RSA, 2019
Kaokoland, Namibia, 2017
Wild boar hunting in Sweden, 2016
Moose hunting in Sweden, 2014


How to post photos on AR
01 December 2020, 01:33
bcelliott
quote:
Originally posted by Hannay:
quote:
Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
More great work Ron.

You know it would be good if this thread could somehow be put into a very long single page so "Find" could used.

Maybe it cud be saved a page at a time into single Word or Excel file. Perhaps Notepad might be the way.


Well, I recently took the plunge and have BEGNO's Browning 458 Win Mag on the way. I tend to agree with Mike here, and I find the forum search feature rather cumbersome. And there's a lot of information I'd like to try and digest!

So... this morning I used a very fast internet connection, some html code, and Adobe Acrobat to produce a PDF of the first 222 pages of this thread.

A little different than Mike's suggestion - this includes all the photos, and I had to divide the file into 3 parts; use Acrobat's "reduce file size" feature, then recombine the file to create a single 310 MB file.

You could send this to your printer, but it is 6773 pages(!) so it might take awhile. Also, pages where someone pasted a huge image will have very small print.

But if you want to download your own copy, it's here: First 222 pages.

I hope someone will find this useful.


Hannay, you're awesome! Great work! Many thanks.
01 December 2020, 03:25
jerry mcdonald
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
quote:
Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
Good work RIP, in haste the other night I didn't measure my brass length, just grabbed a fired piece from the bag, FL sized it and set a 500gr TBSH in the last groove for 3.575 inch, after reading your info, I do need to get a Lee FCD ordered.

You must have grabbed a 2.500" piece of brass.
No need to trim the case until it gets past .458 TRUMP maximum of 2.505".
You never want to trim shorter than 2.500" if you can heppitt, whether for .458 WM or .458 TRUMP.
There is 0.020" for case stretch on firing, past 2.500" SAAMI maximum for .458 WM.
That is more generous than with most sporting cartridges.


My powder man up in Ft Smith has all the Alliant powders, Varmint and 2000MR will make the 458 3.575 sing a hard song!

Cool beans, keep us posted of any results with those Alliant Power Pro powders in the .458 WM or .458 TRUMP, for THE MISSION.
Perusing the Alliant web site leads me to believe, unless I am confused, that
Varmint is a spherical, single based, "Light Rifle" powder.
1200-R is a spherical, double-based, especially temperature stable "Rifle" powder.
2000-MR is a spherical, single-based, "Medium Rifle" powder.
4000-MR is a spherical, single-based, "Magnum Rifle" powder.
AR-Comp is an extruded, single-based, especially temperature stable "Rifle" powder.


... my rifle sans scope, mounts and rings weighed 9.25 pounds as a 375, it may come back and an 8.5lb Thumper with a .450/.458 hole in the barrel, as said many times before, these rifles may be carried 10 miles a day in Africa, and fired once or twice, i'll take that line of thought!..........I never once felt or even thought about recoil from my 577 double shooting a hippo on dry ground at 16 yards with his face in the grass, or cape buffalo through the river reeds at spitting distance, it ALL remains more than good.


The M70 Super Grade .458 WM from 2011-2012 (FN/SC-made) is 9.0 pounds in walnut with 24" barrel and 0.730" muzzle diameter,
no scope bases or nuthin', iron sights only.
It has a slightly shorter knoxform and more pronounced initial taper than the .375 H&H M70 Classic Stainless.
The latter tapers more gradually over the 24" length but ends up 0.720" (ten thou smaller) for muzzle diameter.
The .458 WM taper changes to less near the muzzle,
to maintain the diameter at muzzle.
I like the 9.0-pound weight for iron sights only on a .458 WM.
4 rounds of ammo will add about a half pound.

If the rebore lightens your .375 H&H very much, and a lighter stock is needed for balance and/or masochism,
the Bell & Carlson M70 long action stock weighs only 2 pounds, Medalist style like on the Winchester Extreme Weather M70 models.
BTW, B&C is now making ("NEW!") a stock for the Ruger M77 Mark II and Hawkeye.
It, like their M98 & Mk X Mauser stocks weighs about 2.25 pounds.
The M70 stock is more svelte apparently.
The CZ 550 Magnum stock from B&C weighs 2.5 pounds.
An HS Precision M70 long action stock I have weighs 2.5 pounds also.
All these synthetic stocks come with recoil pads, paint, swivel studs, and full bedding blocks.


Nice, You're doing the lords work RIP ; ]

I've had a Karab 98 b Mauser in 458 Win Mag sitting in a corner for three years I guess, bought it for a little of nothing, had my Smith midnight blue all steel, including the 3X Leupold with heavy #4 German reticle, had him full length bed everything.

Started a thread down in the Gunsmithing Forum to see what the thing was and if it was safe to shoot, well, I put it on the bench today, zeroed the Winchester M-70 factory irons I saved from another project, they came off a M-70 Classic Stainless 375, I've never had a classic 70 in 458 Win Mag, the front ramp is a bit taller for the 375, after raising the rear slider a few times I had it slamming dead on at 50 with the 450gr BBW #13 solids I have loaded for the old FN Browning 458, clamped the Leupold back down in the short lever Leupold QD bases, after a bit of adjustment the old Mauser put two in the same hole at 50 yards, that load is also for the old FN 458, it's the 500gr Partitions, they run 2155 fps over H-335, something about 458 Win Mags, the damn things are easy to get to shoot well.

These two rifles are forever 3.340 inch guns, they, by design, are, what they are, the real hammer will be in from JES in a few weeks, I badly need to buy a 50 count bag of WW 458 brass for the 458 3.600 inch, that stuff is unobtainum.

If the AA2460 doesn't shake with the 458 3.600, i'll grab some of the Alliant powders.

BTW I did get a Lee FCD ordered.
01 December 2020, 04:24
RIP
Hannay,

Big buy a donkey to you for the good work you have done for THE MISSION.
You got your Missionary Wings for sure by acquiring a Mahohbo Rifle.
Congratulations.
Will you be able to add the next 222 pages of this thread to your pdf ?
I will save it too.
Many are appreciative, like bcelliott.
Thanks.
01 December 2020, 04:31
Hannay
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:

Will you be able to add the next 222 pages of this thread to your pdf ?


I should be able to update it from time-to-time; probably not every time a new page is started. Smiler

I may have some of my own questions soon enough!




Muskox-Greenland, 2020
Roe buck and muntjac in England, 2019
Unkomaas Valley, RSA, 2019
Kaokoland, Namibia, 2017
Wild boar hunting in Sweden, 2016
Moose hunting in Sweden, 2014


How to post photos on AR
01 December 2020, 05:00
RIP
Jerry,
I see you have a couple of Mahohboh rifles besides the Ultra-Mahohboh in the works.
That is good.
One can never have enough .458 WM and .458 TRUMP rifles.

I bet you will have no problem getting what you want out of AA-2460.

I have used up too 83 grains of AA-2230 with 500-gr TSX in the .458 TRUMP to get 2342 fps MV from a 24-7/8" CZ barrel (.459" groove) at 3.780" COL.
Probably would use 85 to 86 grains of AA-2460 to get higher velocity and lower pressure than that AA-2230 load.
I get 87 grains of the much bulkier H4895 into a 2.500" case with a drop tube, fills it flush with case mouth.
You will have no problem getting enough AA-2460 into the case.

I think AA-2460 is the "extra virgin" form of AA-2230,
the latter being formed by flattening a certain percentage of the tiny spherical grains of the former.
Both are temperature independent,
both reformulated for 2016 year.
Just my SWAG, not verified.

I doubt that the Alliant Power Pro spherical powders that really sing in a .458 WM or .458 are as ThermoBallisticallyIndependent as the two from AA/Western Powders.

The Irish Twins AA powders, both born in 2016:
The flattened grains allow the AA-2230 to pack a little more compactly when loosely loaded.
Pre-compressed !
The flattened grains have more surface area and hence speeds burn rate by a smidgeon.

At 3.340" COL in the .458 WM, 78 grains of AA-2460 gets the 480-grain steel-jacketed DGX to over 2300 fps in a 25" Shilen barrel.
77.0 grains was more accurate at 2292 fps MV,
0.57 MOA for 3 shots.
That is a speedy and low pressure "Tropical Load" for the SAAMI .458 WM.

Switch the bullet to 500-gr TBSH with 3.575" COL in the .458 TRUMP and start with 77.0 grains of AA-2460, +/- filler at such a low LR/fill. Cool
Work up to 100 % LR/fill or desired quitting point.
That is what I will do in my .459"-grooved rifles for starters with the TBSH in the .458 TRUMP.
If your rifle is .458"-grooved, back off a couple of grains to start.
Maybe 75.0 grains to start.
tu2
01 December 2020, 07:27
RIP
The factory loads chronographed yesterday went from room temperature and sat in factory boxes in a satchel until shot at the range.
In going from the ammo bag of ammo boxes to the warming chamber of the rifle,
none of the ammo got down to the ambient temperature outdoors, 46*F, fairly safe to say.
The factory loads probably stayed closer to 70*F than 46*F.

I would usually dissect/necropsy/process something after I shoot it.
This time something was dissected before it was shot.
A couple of surprises here:



Not even a full case of powder and the 500-gr Federal Fusion load is doing almost 2200 fps.
Probably Alliant Power Pro Varmint. Wink
01 December 2020, 07:28
RIP


2192 fps with a 450-gr TSX in the VOR-TX load was an underachievement in velocity by Barnes Ammunition.
But it is the most accurate of the six factory loads.
It is capable of this sort of open-iron-sight precision:

.458 WM Accuracy

archer
01 December 2020, 07:29
RIP


The DGX load was seated deeper than the DGS load.
Less powder space with the 500-gr DGX Soft.
More powder space with the 500-gr DGS Solid.
DGS solid required about 2 grains more powder than the DGX soft to get similar velocity.
Expect H335 or AA-2230 to do something like that.

patriot
.458 TRUMP
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

01 December 2020, 20:52
boom stick
What is the best rifle for the 458 TRUMP?
Ruger #1?


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
01 December 2020, 21:35
hydehunter
from what others have said the recoil in a #1 is worse than in a bolt gun but I have never shot the Ruger, so don't take my word for it. but I have a CZ 550 and the 458 Trump works very well no feeding issues but I only load the Barnes 458 TSX bullet and at 2310fps the recoil is very stout especially off the bench when doing the load work up. but if you like the #1 and I would have probably gotten one if the price was right but found my CZ at a very good price and it was new in the box even though it was made 12 years ago. just load the up at 78 grains of AA2230 at 3.680 and let her run, scares the hell out of my friends they will not shoot her, I guess they are chicken, but have fun Jim. P.S. just an fyi: just got an email from Wayne at American Hunting Rifles letting me know they no longer take on any repair work or upgrades they are only building custom rifles now
02 December 2020, 10:16
RIP
quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
What is the best rifle for the 458 TRUMP?
Ruger #1?



Actually should say "near maximum loads."
Trumps the .458 Lott.
A Winchester M70 .458 Trump with 3.6" mag box also trumps the .458 Lott.
An M70 is easy to customize to a bit lighter than the factory Ruger No. 1 and CZ 550 Magnum, for the recoil sponges among us.

We could make jokes about the .458 Trump being a .458 WM on Viagra,
but that would be big boorish.
02 December 2020, 10:29
RIP
quote:
Originally posted by hydehunter:
... I have a CZ 550 and the 458 Trump works very well no feeding issues but I only load the Barnes 458 TSX (450-grain) bullet ...
at 2310fps ... just load ... 78 grains of AA2230 at 3.680 and let her run ...

Good advice!
patriot
.458 TRUMP
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

02 December 2020, 11:58
boom stick
I would name the #1 Stormy Daniels.
Makes TRUMP go BANG! Big Grin


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
02 December 2020, 15:38
jerry mcdonald
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Jerry,
I see you have a couple of Mahohboh rifles besides the Ultra-Mahohboh in the works.
That is good.
One can never have enough .458 WM and .458 TRUMP rifles.

I bet you will have no problem getting what you want out of AA-2460.

I have used up too 83 grains of AA-2230 with 500-gr TSX in the .458 TRUMP to get 2342 fps MV from a 24-7/8" CZ barrel (.459" groove) at 3.780" COL.
Probably would use 85 to 86 grains of AA-2460 to get higher velocity and lower pressure than that AA-2230 load.
I get 87 grains of the much bulkier H4895 into a 2.500" case with a drop tube, fills it flush with case mouth.
You will have no problem getting enough AA-2460 into the case.

I think AA-2460 is the "extra virgin" form of AA-2230,
the latter being formed by flattening a certain percentage of the tiny spherical grains of the former.
Both are temperature independent,
both reformulated for 2016 year.
Just my SWAG, not verified.

I doubt that the Alliant Power Pro spherical powders that really sing in a .458 WM or .458 are as ThermoBallisticallyIndependent as the two from AA/Western Powders.

The Irish Twins AA powders, both born in 2016:
The flattened grains allow the AA-2230 to pack a little more compactly when loosely loaded.
Pre-compressed !
The flattened grains have more surface area and hence speeds burn rate by a smidgeon.

At 3.340" COL in the .458 WM, 78 grains of AA-2460 gets the 480-grain steel-jacketed DGX to over 2300 fps in a 25" Shilen barrel.
77.0 grains was more accurate at 2292 fps MV,
0.57 MOA for 3 shots.
That is a speedy and low pressure "Tropical Load" for the SAAMI .458 WM.

Switch the bullet to 500-gr TBSH with 3.575" COL in the .458 TRUMP and start with 77.0 grains of AA-2460, +/- filler at such a low LR/fill. Cool
Work up to 100 % LR/fill or desired quitting point.
That is what I will do in my .459"-grooved rifles for starters with the TBSH in the .458 TRUMP.
If your rifle is .458"-grooved, back off a couple of grains to start.
Maybe 75.0 grains to start.
tu2


Yes, and since the old syn stocked cerakoted 458 shot so well the other day, I need to send it to DPCD for some tlc, it can be a hell of an all game, all weather, anywhere in the world hunting rifle, really like the 458 TRUMP name/idea, equal pressure for both Win/Lott cartridges is the only fair comparison, I appreciate the load data, that'll save a lot of time and money.

I have five 500gr flat nosed grease groove cast bullets impregnated with 220 bore lapping grit, then 10 with 400, and 10 with 800, will finish with 50 strokes of JB bore paste, the new JES re-bore will shine like a diamond and wont foul any to speak of just like my other JES pre-64 70 re-bores in 338-06 and 35 Whelen.

Back to the 458 TRUMP, 450gr TSX's at 2450 and 500gr TBSH's at 2325 will do me fine, still haven't decided if i'll run a scope on this rig, pulled a 2.5-8 in Talley levers off when sent to JES, that's a great glass for a 375 AI, not so much for a 458 TRUMP ; ]
03 December 2020, 00:16
RIP
quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
I would name the #1 Stormy Daniels.
Makes TRUMP go BANG! Big Grin

OK, another good idea. Buy a donkey boomstick ! You have a flair about you.

I am changing her name to "Stormy Daisy Daniels-Ruger" aka "Tick Licker" after Daniel Boone's rifle.
She can lick the ticks off a dog at 100 yards:




Bob already has dibbs on "Grace" for his Ruger No. 1 .458 TRUMP.
03 December 2020, 00:22
RIP
quote:
Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
Yes, and since the old syn stocked cerakoted 458 shot so well the other day, I need to send it to DPCD for some tlc, it can be a hell of an all game, all weather, anywhere in the world hunting rifle, really like the 458 TRUMP name/idea, ...
dancing
Buy a donkey to boom stick.

... equal pressure for both Win/Lott cartridges is the only fair comparison, I appreciate the load data, that'll save a lot of time and money.

I have five 500gr flat nosed grease groove cast bullets impregnated with 220 bore lapping grit, then 10 with 400, and 10 with 800, will finish with 50 strokes of JB bore paste, the new JES re-bore will shine like a diamond and wont foul any to speak of just like my other JES pre-64 70 re-bores in 338-06 and 35 Whelen.

Back to the 458 TRUMP, 450gr TSX's at 2450 and 500gr TBSH's at 2325 will do me fine, still haven't decided if i'll run a scope on this rig, pulled a 2.5-8 in Talley levers off when sent to JES, that's a great glass for a 375 AI, not so much for a 458 TRUMP ; ]

Jerry is getting ready to polish the bore of his .458 TRUMP:



Please do tell about the 000 buckshot load. tu2
03 December 2020, 01:03
boom stick
You know you are going to have a good time with a date with Stormy Wink

The Trump boys should go hunt with their fathers name sake cartridge.




577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
03 December 2020, 01:44
jerry mcdonald
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
quote:
Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
Yes, and since the old syn stocked cerakoted 458 shot so well the other day, I need to send it to DPCD for some tlc, it can be a hell of an all game, all weather, anywhere in the world hunting rifle, really like the 458 TRUMP name/idea, ...
dancing
Buy a donkey to boom stick.

... equal pressure for both Win/Lott cartridges is the only fair comparison, I appreciate the load data, that'll save a lot of time and money.

I have five 500gr flat nosed grease groove cast bullets impregnated with 220 bore lapping grit, then 10 with 400, and 10 with 800, will finish with 50 strokes of JB bore paste, the new JES re-bore will shine like a diamond and wont foul any to speak of just like my other JES pre-64 70 re-bores in 338-06 and 35 Whelen.

Back to the 458 TRUMP, 450gr TSX's at 2450 and 500gr TBSH's at 2325 will do me fine, still haven't decided if i'll run a scope on this rig, pulled a 2.5-8 in Talley levers off when sent to JES, that's a great glass for a 375 AI, not so much for a 458 TRUMP ; ]

Jerry is getting ready to polish the bore of his .458 TRUMP:



Please do tell about the 000 buckshot load. tu2


10-4, Thanks RIP, and Thanks to BoomStick for the TRUMP naming, great idea, yes, about to polish the bore when it returns from JES, 5 rounds with 220 grit polishing compound, the grease grooves on the 22 BHN alloy 500gr flat nosed cast bullets hold mucho compound, 220, 400, 800 grit, then 50 strokes with JB and she'll be ready.

I am mistaken, calling my 458 3.575 inch "TRUMP" may not be true, as it's not long enough, I was mistaken and thought the name explained the pressures developed, the test load with the 500gr TBSH has 77gr AA-2460 waiting on a nice crimp when my Lee FCD gets here, it'll be the first one fired across the chrono after lapping and cleanup.

I grabbed one of my home-built 12 GA loads for the picture, it goes with all things TRUMP, using the 458 Win Mag and 12 GA 2-3/4 inch hull to max capacity and payload is what this is all about.

I have a Lee 16 cavity 000 gang mould, it throws around a .358 inch ball, the pictured load is one I built for farm and home use, the 000 buck pellets are cast with 22 BHN alloy, harder than a whores heart, the clear Fiocchi? hulls are the only ones thin enough to get 12 000 buck pellets in, 25gr 800X under an X12X wad with 40lbs compression, four rows of three pellets make a hell of a payload on a 2-3/4 inch hull, hence the inclusion, it could be a 12 GA TRUMP 2-3/4 inch Cool , the old 870 in the back holds 11 of these, a clean shotgun with only a tiny green bead glowing back at me, I don't like a bunch of shit hanging off my defense guns.
03 December 2020, 02:00
Fury01
Rip,
Thought you would want to know; Kansas deer still won't hold a 485 grain flat nosed cast.
51 gr of AA 2015, dacron filler. CCI 34 primer.
Smiler


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
03 December 2020, 02:50
RIP
boom stick,
I am guessing from your photo montage that the Trump boys use .375 H&H Winchester M70 rifles on safari.
If so, those are a natural for re-barreling or re-boring to .458 TRUMP.
Maybe they will eventually mature enough to consider this upgrade.
tu2
03 December 2020, 03:02
RIP
Jerry,

That is a doozy, your 12 Ga Trump load. tu2

You are not mistaken.
.458 TRUMP is defined as
any .458 WM load that gets pressure up to SAAMI .458 Lott MAP (62,500 psi) and/or exceeds SAAMI .458 WM COL (3.340"), even if at lower pressure than the SAAMI .458 WM MAP (60,000 psi).

The .458 TRUMP may be short and hot, long and hot, or long and warm, or long and cool.
Short and warm or short and cool, it is back to being a SAAMI .458 WM ...

UNLESS !!!
Let the brass length have a maximum of 2.505" and it is a .458 TRUMP whether COL is 2.505" or 3.800" or MAP is anything </= 62,500 psi.

Well, they are all cool in a different way,
whether .458 TRUMP or SAAMI .458 WIN.



.458 TRUMP trim-to length = 2.500", maximum = 2.505".
03 December 2020, 03:26
RIP
quote:
Originally posted by Fury01:
Rip,
Thought you would want to know; Kansas deer still won't hold a 485 grain flat nosed cast.
51 gr of AA 2015, dacron filler. CCI 34 primer.
Smiler


Good eatin' right up to the bullet hole. clap
Buy a donkey for THE MISSION Fury01.

I will go back out this month with the CVA Paramount .45-cal, using the PowerSKIRT ELR 290-grainer with about 100 grains by weight of Blackhorn 209.

Eventually I may be able to muzzleload a soft lead Lyman PH (FN conical) bullet of about 485-grain weight in the Paramount,
with a lesser charge of Blackhorn 209.
Going back to the Whitworth beginnings of the 45-cal BPCR, which culminated in perfection of the .458 WM/.458 TRUMP.

Now that we know what to call it, I can re-cycle some old images:



Brass length of 2.500" to 2.505" (instead of 2.490" to 2.500") makes all of the above into a .458 Trump, regardless of hot, warm, or cold pressure.

What if brass is exactly 2.500" ?
Measure more precisely and you will distinguish it as < 2.500" or > 2.500".
Odds are it will not be exactly 2.500000000..."

Just like odds are that the votes for Joe Biden did not occur as they did without fraud.
Those odds are one chance in infinity.
That is zero chance.
That makes the Democrats dumb, dumber, and dumbest.
homer
Dumb and Dumber: Happy with one chance in a million.
Dumber: "You mean there is a chance you might go out with me?"
Girl: "One in a million."
Dumber: "Then there is a chance !"
dancing

New copyrighted term for members of the US Democratic Party: Dumbestcrats
03 December 2020, 03:42
Hannay
If anyone here is interested, besides the PDF of this thread, I also made one for the "Terminal Bullet Performance" thread. It's 128 MB, 7377 pages. It can be downloaded here:

Hannay's Dropbox




Muskox-Greenland, 2020
Roe buck and muntjac in England, 2019
Unkomaas Valley, RSA, 2019
Kaokoland, Namibia, 2017
Wild boar hunting in Sweden, 2016
Moose hunting in Sweden, 2014


How to post photos on AR
03 December 2020, 03:47
RIP
Buy a donkey again, Hannay.
You are going to have quite a herd.

Maybe we could get boomstick to downsize the Trump picture to no more than 1024 pixels wide,
so it does not make the print so small if page 223 ever gets added to a pdf.
tu2
03 December 2020, 04:34
RIP
Another recycled image of the .458 TRUMP:


patriot
.458 TRUMP
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

03 December 2020, 04:59
jerry mcdonald
Great! Thanks for the clarification RIP, I LOL'd when dumping 77gr AA-2460 in the WW hull earlier, with the 500gr TBSH seated at 3.575 inch, I could shake the round and hear loose powder, mucho room to spare, i'll find that 'limit' with my chrono, OR shoulder! ; ]
03 December 2020, 06:35
Hannay
Apology: Sorry if these “beginner” questions distract the thread from development of newer more fantastic versions of the 458 Win Mag!

Question: Does anyone have experience using the Speer 400 grain bullet on whitetail deer? Successful or otherwise? If so, what velocities?

Background:
As mentioned a couple days ago, I’ve just taken the plunge on buying a 458 Win Mag rifle from BEGNO; it’s on its way now, and I’ve been ordering dies, and have some brass and a mix of 500 grain bullets bought off the AR classified section on their way, too.

Considering that nearly everything 458 Win Mag wise seems to be unobtainium, I was wondering about using some bullets that I bought about 25 years ago, as part of lot of reloading leftovers being sold by a widow:


As I’m not going back to Africa in the immediate future, I thought I might try using my “new” (to me, but 60-years old) 458 Win Mag rifle on the local whitetail deer, which seldom exceed 150 lbs field dressed weight. I assumed these bullets would be adequate– how could 400 grains of lead around 2000 ft/s not be? Then, I noticed the Speer website shows this bullet as being suitable for “Target Shooting”.



The Speer Reloading Manual #11 recommends the 400 gr bullet, but the Speer Reloading Manual #14 says “Rifles with rough bores or a burr at the muzzle may deform the thin jacket enough to cause the jacket to separate in flight. If your rifle is not so affected, it is fine for elk and moose but we prefer the newer 350-grain Mag-Tip for most North American game including large bear.”

So, any firsthand experience? I was thinking of trying a starting charge of IMR 4064, which Speer Reloading Manual #11 gives as 71 grains with a velocity of 2062 ft/s. I could drop all the way down to the reduced SR4759 load, around 1300-1400 ft/s if these bullets are really that prone to jacket separation. After all, I’ve killed deer with subsonic 300 Blackout loads…

Thanks!




Muskox-Greenland, 2020
Roe buck and muntjac in England, 2019
Unkomaas Valley, RSA, 2019
Kaokoland, Namibia, 2017
Wild boar hunting in Sweden, 2016
Moose hunting in Sweden, 2014


How to post photos on AR
03 December 2020, 07:30
boom stick
Thanks for doing this

quote:
Originally posted by Hannay:
If anyone here is interested, besides the PDF of this thread, I also made one for the "Terminal Bullet Performance" thread. It's 128 MB, 7377 pages. It can be downloaded here:

Hannay's Dropbox



577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)