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quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
early bullet tips

best in class hunters



-----4-458 win mag's-- a 460 wby center-- and a 416 taylor far right [ all work] 458 seems ''from this photo'' to be the standard load-----

have always recognized the benefit of multiple weight and shape in bullet tips for larger and very large dangerous game

the natural evolution led us to the apex 458 formulae

keep up the good work Bob and Ripp

by the way-- in those days it was all home brew loads

LOVING THE BIG BANG - is --on the face of it--- not an original idea--- Bob Wink



Stradling;

I blame my second son, Phil, for getting me into writing blogs, and he set me up for it and gave the title: LOVIN' THE BIG BANG. He makes his living doing Internet stuff. I'd written a few reloading manuals and he though I might enjoy this: Well, at times, yes... at others it's gotten me into some trouble that I didn't exactly ask for!

Now, I blame you for hooking me into this never-ending thread Big Grin

Seriously, though, thank you.

And RIP has rescued the great .458 Win Mag from the Naysayers! Thank you RIP.

There was a post above, that I made a few days ago, that I ended up deleting while attempting to correct something. Sorry about that. It was in reference to my latest tests. I'll not try to rewrite it. Instead, I'll give the basics when I come back to this, or when I write another blog on the .458.

Today: putting together more loads for the Ruger Tropical. Thank you RIP for encouragements.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)

 
Posts: 771 | Location: Kawartha Lakes, ONT, Canada | Registered: 21 November 2008Reply With Quote
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A Question I'd like to ask Ray, and others, who's only argument is that to seat bullets "long", or longer than specs, somehow disqualifies those loads as legitimate: Have you ever loaded ANY rifle with cartridges longer than SAAMI specs? If you are a knowledgeable handloader, you have! You make use of the space available in the cartridge if the magazine and throat allows it.. that's just wisdom in action.

There's not a cartridge I've handloaded for over the past forty years to which I've not applied that wisdom. Apart from the .458 Win, and long before I owned one, I did that for .30-06s, 7mm mags, .300 mags, .375 H&Hs, a .35 Whelen, and now my 9.3 x 62. So, it's NOT a novelty to do the same for a .458 Win Mag!!!!!! That is WITHOUT any modifications to the rifles!

The late Don Heath said, on this forum, that "the boys" in South Africa had been doing that since they had the 602's available. He said they called them the "poor man's Lott". And, in using a certain powder he claimed "2300 fps with S321 is no problem either" for 500s!

As RIP stated: they (critics, trying to hold on to any flimsy argument) don't want to know the truth. This is NOT RIP's "truth", as some seem to try and make that argument, it is simply THE TRUTH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, which some of us have discovered.

RIP: I also have some of those 400 Busters and will give them a try.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)

 
Posts: 771 | Location: Kawartha Lakes, ONT, Canada | Registered: 21 November 2008Reply With Quote
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.458 Only and stradling,

Reminds me of a Jack Nicholson movie line, court martial testimony, something about they "can't handle the truth."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk

Exhibit A:



Yes, there is much work yet to be done.
There is still a great calling for our work as missionaries.
THE MISSION continues. Doing good has no end.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:

The late Don Heath said, on this forum, that "the boys" in South Africa had been doing that since they had the 602's available. He said they called them the "poor man's Lott". And, in using a certain powder he claimed "2300 fps with S321 is no problem either" for 500s!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


That is a great anecdote, for THE MISSION, supported by our findings with .458 WIN LongCOL handloads.

Chimera WinCZechster did over 2340 fps MV with the Barnes 500-grain TSX at 3.780" COL, 24-7/8" CZ barrel, AA-2230.
No hBN, just naked TSX, accuracy was good.
Accuracy was bughole-better at 2250 fps, which might be specific to that rifle.

Bobbarrella Shilen-CZ did over 2460 fps MV with the Barnes 450-grain TSX at 3.680" COL, 25-1/4" Shilen barrel, AA-2230.
Those were hBN treated.
Accuracy was 0.33 MOA for three shots at a slightly slower 2448 fps MV, 2 fps standard deviation for 3 shots.

The "poor man's Lott" is every man's .458 WIN.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Picture of stradling
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quote:
the-- think they know but don't quite get it bunch


P.O. ACKLEY

458 WIN --500 grain bullet

70-3031 --2172
73-3031 --2248
75-3031 --2338

65-4198 --2153
68-4198 --2363

1-14 TWIST

GRAINS- POWDER -- VELOCITY

He did that back in the days when 2+2=3

now a days just about any one can produce a 4 using the simple math with current powders

----what the hell did he know any way---

he goes on to say it is possible to increase the velocity slightly but it is doubtful if more power is necessary until safaris are possible on mars or some other planet -- so


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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I remember that P. O. Ackley quote. Mars. animal
I never could quite equal his loads with IMR-3031 and IMR-4198, using shortCOL in my 24" barrel,
but I was using different powder lots, probably 20 years after his powder lots, and maybe 20 years of lawyers and bean counters under the bridge
had tampered with the powders?
But, 71 grains of IMR-3031 did give me about 2150 fps with 500-gr Hornady RNSP once upon a time,
in a 24" Remington M700 BDL "Safari" model.
That rifle and load combo was a one-shot cow moose flattener,
and a 100-yard hoary marmot flattener too,
literally.

Would Chuck Norris use a .458 Lott or a .458 WIN in any rifle he chose?

https://www.getzone.com/news-g...ris-as-spokesperson/

Well, he is the Glock spokesman now.
His first appearance as such is at the NRA Convention 2019 in Indianapolis, IN.
He'll be there Friday and Saturday of this week.
I guess I will have to get in line for an autograph, and see if he will become celebrity endorser of the .458 WIN.

Chuck Norris jokes welcome here, for THE MISSION.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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if you remember that, you might also remember that just above, in the same paragraph he seriously questioned whether many of the oversized --''overgrown''-- and much overrated english cartridges it was built to match, had the power of the humble little 458 win --in fact he says they did not-- do not --it is more powerful than the stuff that set the standard

when was the last time someone cussed a 450 NE

EVEN THE 3 STOOGES ARE SMART ENOUGH NOT TO DO THAT!!

The 458 win mag-- did not run the board it ran rampant all across the globe -- and that is exactly why

now--- thats not to say that there is a 458 lott, now and then the odd 460 wby here and there trying ''desperately'' to upstage it at every turn

all you kan say to those good old boys is, good luck -- knock yourself out


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
if you remember that, you might also remember that just above, in the same paragraph he seriously questioned whether many of the oversized --''overgrown''-- and much overrated english cartridges it was built to match, had the power of the humble little 458 win --in fact he says they did not-- do not --it is more powerful than the stuff that set the standard

when was the last time someone cussed a 450 NE

EVEN THE 3 STOOGES ARE SMART ENOUGH NOT TO DO THAT!!

The 458 win mag-- did not run the board it ran rampant all across the globe -- and that is exactly why


I do remember.
Amen.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Not to upstage you RIP but when I think of Chuck on TV and perfection in the same sentence, for some reason unbeknownst to me, this image comes to mind



NOTE THE ''SOFT OIL RUBBED LOOK'' A VERY NICE POLISHED LOOK

for some reason this seems to put a finer point on the concept

I really should get me one of those exercise machines to go with the 458 5 DOWN ONE IN THE TUBE Huntin gun PH only model


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Picture of Todd Williams
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quote:
Originally posted by shootaway:
quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
why do you folks try to justify the .458 Win with 400 and 450 gr. bullets? Seems to be admitting its a flawed caliber?? IMO the only bullet for the 458 Win is indeed the 500 gr. bullet is was designed for, but it must be handloaded IMO, then its a hum dinger of a DG caliber, I like it and its very shootable and kills very well indeed..Just stay away from factory ammo...Albiet the 458 Lott holds more powder and gets higher velocity therefore it of course, is a better option, were that not so then this 123 thread would never have come about...Is that so difficult to understand..but hay just doing my part to keep the circle unbroken..

+1 Big Grin


They say "There's always one in every bunch".

Well, I'm here to tell you there are TWO in this bunch!

animal
 
Posts: 8235 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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Picture of Todd Williams
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quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
if you remember that, you might also remember that just above, in the same paragraph he seriously questioned whether many of the oversized --''overgrown''-- and much overrated english cartridges it was built to match, had the power of the humble little 458 win --in fact he says they did not-- do not --it is more powerful than the stuff that set the standard

when was the last time someone cussed a 450 NE

EVEN THE 3 STOOGES ARE SMART ENOUGH NOT TO DO THAT!!

The 458 win mag-- did not run the board it ran rampant all across the globe -- and that is exactly why

now--- thats not to say that there is a 458 lott, now and then the odd 460 wby here and there trying ''desperately'' to upstage it at every turn

all you kan say to those good old boys is, good luck -- knock yourself out


Hell man, ONE of the STOOGES on this thread has a 450 NE that he claims is the best DR ever made. He's got a smattering of Lotts as well. At least one of them used to shoot a buffalo cow against his PH's directions!

rotflmo
 
Posts: 8235 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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Picture of Todd Williams
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quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
Not to upstage you RIP but when I think of Chuck on TV and perfection in the same sentence, for some reason unbeknownst to me, this image comes to mind



NOTE THE ''SOFT OIL RUBBED LOOK'' A VERY NICE POLISHED LOOK

for some reason this seems to put a finer point on the concept

I really should get me one of those exercise machines to go with the 458 5 DOWN ONE IN THE TUBE Huntin gun PH only model


There's another Anti-Blaser right there!!!
 
Posts: 8235 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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Picture of Todd Williams
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quote:
Originally posted by ALF:
Hey Williams ! Do I look like I shoot a F*****n Lott ?? or a Blaser for that matter ! Wink


Hey Alf, did I identify you as one of the Stooges?

Don't think so.
 
Posts: 8235 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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OK, I'll admit it, the 3 Stooges pic above was altered, as a joke.
Here's another:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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stradling,

That is the spirit of THE MISSION.
Jolly good show!

I like that shockwave streaming from the muzzle of the Smithson PH model .458 WIN.
Reminds me of Todd buzzing the carrier for a photo-op.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_LrCMy5jr4

Who is the chick?
Is that a Ms. 458 WIN 2020 candidate?
Jolly good leg.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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the last ---joke-- is on you RIP

you need to get out more

https://totalgymdirect.com/chuck-norris-total-gym/

She is his total gym, mate never watched him much but for some unknown reason I watched the total gym commercials when she was doing them -- never did buy the gym set--even though there is living proof, it dam sure works [see photo above- girl in blue dress]-- I am kind of like those 458 win velocity deniers that want a ''lott'' more with no recoil even when there is a world of living proof the 458 works just fine - you take her for a dance -- there is going to be some kick back coming your way with very little increase in velocity -- she will most likly pat you on the head and take you back over to the cookies and kool aid, when the slow dance plays, that right there just might kick you back on your ass -- don't ya think-- if your not man enough to handle it,[the follow up shot], get yourself a reliable proven stable 458 win mag. it might turn out to be conducive to your health, and for certain will bolster up your pride -after the hunt- at the fire - game in the salt - scotch in hand - stories a flow - pride and satisfaction flickering like the elusive flames against the charcoal coloured fog, cut open here and there by the dance of a burning lead wood log, sitting among men that are smart enough to run their guns - with and old african mainstay, be it a 9.3 x 62 or even the mighty .458 win mag, the gun that saved Africa. dreaming of younger times, that elusive 460 wby and miss total gym, knowing you could have all that if you really wanted it, wise enough to know the 458 win is enough, it just works - another splash of scotch please only one, got too hunt at first light. For tomorrow we seek the elephant, looking for one with 45.8 pound ivory now that the gun is shot in and the hunters fever has abated just a bit. Songs of the african night serenading your soul, conjuring up thoughts of mighty conquests, grand unknown adventure, awaiting in dawn's golden glow out there just beyond the veil of the ink jet black, thick dark night. knowing full well you are up to the task whatever might come with the next sun.


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Well James "stradling" Joyce is being channeled again!
Excellent prose, or was that poetry?

The chick is too young to be a Ms. 458 WIN.
The rifle is definitely poster-girl material.
8.5 pounds naked, 24" barrel, 5-rounds down will add some weight, and that is good as it gets:



I would prefer to have the Smithson scope mounts added to it, even if the square bridges added a few ounces, it would still be well balanced and lively.



Then it would have
open sights,
Smithson peep on the rear bridge
Smithonson reflex/red-dot mount at the "scout" location on barrel
Smithson scope bases at front and rear of the action.

Plenty of choices for optics to suit elephant hunter or varmint hunter,
using LongCOL varmint loads or standard SAAMI elephant loads.
Yep, that would work just fine.
A magazine full of SAAMI .458 WIN 500-grainers at lower pressure and only 50 fps slower than the SAAMI-maxed-out .458 Lott.
How embarrassing for the .458 Lott!
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Picture of Todd Williams
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:


The chick is too young to be a Ms. 458 WIN.


That chick is the one and only Christie Brinkley. Former Ferrari driver in National Lampoon's Vacation and former wife of Billy Joel.

She's no spring chicken these days, that being an old photo.

Still pretty hot though. Kind of like those classically beautiful Anti-Blasers!
 
Posts: 8235 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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holycow
I stand corrected.
Christie Brinkley is the new Ms. 458 WIN 2020.
Especially since she was the original Total Gym Girl on the Chuck Norris commercials,
and Chuck will surely give us a thumbs up on the .458 WIN endorsement Friday at the NRA show.

2018: Ms. 416Tanzan
2019: Halle Berry
2020: Christie Brinkley

".458 Winchester Magnum Perfection."
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Considering the old British inclination for 480-grain bullets in .450 calibre, I'm not sure the 458's 500/510 grains is absolutely necessary for the biggest game, but it can't hurt. Were the British bullets slightly more pointed? If so, this may have made up a little in penetration, in the same way some say the 577 NE out-performed the .600.

That said, I think the 458 WM occupies a ballistic sweet spot analogous with the 7x57, having just the right amount of power and penetration without excessive bulk or recoil.

In regard to the moon goddess, RIP, I told her the original story and, like Queen Victoria, we were not amused. So, I might spare her your thoughts on redundancy Wink
 
Posts: 4339 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
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sambarmann338,

Yep, perfection, just like Chuck Norris says in his endorsement of the .458 WIN.
Ring-a-ding-ding, thank you.

Christie Brinkley is perfect for Ms. 458 WIN 2020.
Great suggestion by stradling.
She could be my older Irish Twin, same birth year.
She is actually about 2 years older than the .458 WIN!
I better hit the gym.
2014 photo:

tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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When did Winchester chop the African barrels down to 22 inches? The Pre64 Africans all had 25 inch barrels as the All Mighty intended.

One can not lay barrel length as a limiting factor in velocity at the foot of the pre 64 African.
 
Posts: 5620 | Location: Somewhere above Tennessee and below Kentucky  | Registered: 31 July 2016Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
When did Winchester chop the African barrels down to 22 inches? The Pre64 Africans all had 25 inch barrels as the All Mighty intended.

One can not lay barrel length as a limiting factor in velocity at the foot of the pre 64 African.


Well I had 2 of the Push Feeds, about 70-71 and then they were called Super Grade (on the floor plate) and 22"barrel. In Australia at that time they were slightly cheaper, not by much, than the Mark V Deluxe 300 Wby. The 375, which looked like the XTR with bigger barrel and open sights, angled forend tip, was priced between the 270 and the 458.
 
Posts: 7046 | Location: Sydney Australia | Registered: 14 September 2015Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
When did Winchester chop the African barrels down to 22 inches? The Pre64 Africans all had 25 inch barrels as the All Mighty intended.

One can not lay barrel length as a limiting factor in velocity at the foot of the pre 64 African.


Well I had 2 of the Push Feeds, about 70-71 and then they were called Super Grade (on the floor plate) and 22"barrel. In Australia at that time they were slightly cheaper, not by much, than the Mark V Deluxe 300 Wby. The 375, which looked like the XTR with bigger barrel and open sights, angled forend tip, was priced between the 270 and the 458.


Mike,
Yep. And I had a 1985 model M70 Winchester pushfeed with 22" barrel, and by then it had same sights and setup as the .375 H&H XTR, IIRC.

LHeym500,

Thank you for the opportunity to walk down memory lane with the M70 African.

Seems they switched over to 22" barrel with the 1964 model M70 pushfeed.
See picture sequence below, for THE MISSION.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Memory Lane continues on page 124, for THE MISSION.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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The 1956-1957 Models of the African (25" barrel) first showed up in the catalog section of the 1958 GUN DIGEST, which was published in late 1957,
for the year 1958, like automobile year models:



The second crossbolt might have started in late 1957, for 1958 model Africans.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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From 1958 to 1963 the African looked like this, with 25" barrel (Roger Rule):

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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From 1956 to 1963, MSRP went up only $15, to $310 in 1963 for the last of the Pre-'64 Africans:



In above condition (picture above this post), worth about $8000 to the collector.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Start of the factory 22" barrel in 1964, Roger Rule:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Dirty Harry rode this one hard and put it up wet:



The early pushfeeds were still called the "African" Super Grade model, and still had the same sights as on the Pre-'64 African Super Grade.
Interesting trivia would be to list what sights were used by model year, and when they stopped calling it the "African."
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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A review for shootaway, if he has enough attention span to take it in under his shooter's helmet with the tinfoil hat on top of it:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Amazing how well that SAAMI .458 Win.Mag throat works, for either ShortCOL (</= 3.340") or LongCOL (3.780" with the 500-grain TSX).

Discussing the beauty and function of the Barnes .458-caliber TSX bullets of various weights could help with THE MISSION.

I think someone at Barnes designed the 500-grain TSX just to maximize the .458 WIN LongCOL, perfect for doing more ft-lbs than the .458 Lott.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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RIP: As all ways thank you for the knowledge and pictures.

This has given me new respect for the 458 WM.

I have two more questions: Every reloading manual will show compressed load data with a disclaimer that compressed loads are just fine. What was it about powders from the mid 60s that caused issues with squid loads due to compressed power with the 458 WM?

Has anyone read reliable, or have available first hand or primary source documentation of the compressed squid load problem? I have only read second had accounts 40 and 50 after the fact.
 
Posts: 5620 | Location: Somewhere above Tennessee and below Kentucky  | Registered: 31 July 2016Reply With Quote
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LHeym500,

I really don't know about the congealed, compressed, ball powder, squib loads.
Have also heard of bullets loose in the cases, that could be spun with fingers.
Storage in hot, humid, conditions for some length of time with loose bullets might be involved too.
Whatever anecdotes there may be, it does not matter now.
It is not a factor with good ammo.

For a brief time, the Winchester ammunition factory QC was probably handled by a guy that got promoted to bean counter.
Peter Principle.

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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No doubt modern ammo has killed this particular virus. I just find it odd that we all know the squib load, compressed ammo story. However, I cannot find a first hand account, or what has changed to make compressed loads are fine today.

I ask for my personal knowledge desire, not bc I think the WM remains infected.

If Dirty Harry had not be pen distracted by some San Fran Strange. That 458WM with short barrel and compressed loads would have ended the story a lot sooner.
 
Posts: 5620 | Location: Somewhere above Tennessee and below Kentucky  | Registered: 31 July 2016Reply With Quote
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With extruded powders I always strive for compression to get top performance in any cartridge.
You do not have to use compressed loads at all for 2150 fps with some 500-grainers at 3.340" COL in the .458 WIN.
I hate it when I find a great non-compressed load for the .458 WIN. Wink

Bobbee Boom-Boom Ruger has arrived.
I need to roll some bullets in paper patches now for sure,
soon as I get Chuck Norris to autograph an endorsement of the .458 Winchester Magnum.

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Master Gunsmith and Mechanical Engineer Rusty McGee had to take the barrel off of the .45-70 Ruger No.1's action to ream the chamber by hand,
just like Jack Lott use to do with (shudder) .458 WIN bolt actions to build a .458 Lott.

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Gunnacologist Dr. McGee also reshaped the safety and put a skim of epoxy between the action and the laminated wood buttstock, where the sun don't shine.

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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