THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM BIG BORE FORUMS

Page 1 ... 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 ... 235

Moderators: GeorgeS
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
458 winchester magnum Login/Join
 
one of us
posted Hide Post
From:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...2511043/m/7621039052

Copied here to ring THE MISSION bell:
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
Sir Stradling, Knight of Realm Four-Five-Eight:

The .38-55 WCF and .360 NITRO EXPRESS 2-1/4" have CIP Pmax of 35,000 and 36,000 piezo PSI.
They both have a case capacity of about 52 grains H2O if the defaults in QuickLOAD are correct.

Starting loads for the .38-55 might be as hot for the .360 2-1/4" BPE. as you want to go.

AA-5744 half-case full and a light bullet like you are using (150-grainer) does indeed sound like a great place to start, and maybe end.

Matching a grease-grooved or powder-coat-painted cast lead bullet to groove diameter +0.001 is a good idea, as is the chamber cast.

Have you considered paper-patching a soft lead, smooth sided, cup-based bullet?
For the smokeless AA-5744 you want a bullet that is 0.001" larger than bore diameter, and patch it up to groove diameter or thereabouts.
It sounds like the bullet you are using is only about 0.001" bigger than your bore diameter.

Look around at Buffalo Arms Co. to see if they have anything that might help.
I just got my Care Package from them today.
I bought some .451"-diameter, 530-grain pure lead bullets from them to try in the .458 WIN and its twin brother, the .45-100 SWT.
I expect to patch it to .459" or larger.

Anyhow, if you want a QuickLOAD simulation for AA-5744 by my old version which I think is still good for AA-5744:

1. I would recommend keeping it down to 28,000 PSI.

2. Measure your chosen case capacity, in grains of H20, gross fill.

3. Measure the length of the bullet, length of case, and COL with bullet seated where you want it.

4. Assuming bullet weight of 150 grains and flat based, right?

5. Assuming default groove diameter of .365" in QuickLOAD to use their bore area.
I noticed they defaulted to a .363" bullet diameter, .002" smaller than groove!

Let me know if you want me to screw around with that simulation.
I will copy this to THE MISSION thread, to ring the MISSION BELL, of course.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Yep, I got the paper-patch materials from Buffalo Arms Co.
What works in the .458 WIN will work in the .45-100 SWT.
I'll try it first
in Bobbarrella Shilen-CZ
or Chimera WinCZechster
or Alderella Shilen-Ruger,
then Bobbee Boom-Boom Ruger (unborn as yet).
10-12 weeks wait on the .45-100 SWT reamer.
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Brits ruled the onset of the .450-bore sporting and military rifle, I reckon.
The .577/.450 MH had a .450 bore, but groove diameter and paper-patched bullet diameter vary, eh?

In 6th Edition Ammo Encyclopedia, bullet diameter is shown as .465":

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Never loaded with smokeless, eh?
COTW 15th Edition has one smokeless load (IMR-4198) for the nostalgiacs with their new-fangled, drawn-brass, "solid" cases,
to mimic the old BP load:



Either BP or smokeless shown above could go right into a .458 WIN to mimic the old with the new,
using a standardized .458" jacketed bullet diameter,
in the .458 WIN.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of 458PHCAPSTICK
posted Hide Post
Rip have you ever heard of the rare".458-400 Express revolver round made by Mr. John Gallagher to duplicate the 475 Linebaugh useing shortend 45-70 cases and .458 400gr. bullets.
 
Posts: 214 | Registered: 28 September 2011Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of jwp475
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by 458PHCAPSTICK:
Rip have you ever heard of the rare".458-400 Express revolver round made by Mr. John Gallagher to duplicate the 475 Linebaugh useing shortend 45-70 cases and .458 400 grain bullets?


If it is shooting a 458 bullet then it is not duplicating the 475L


_____________________________________________________


A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
- Winston Churchill
 
Posts: 5073 | Location: USA | Registered: 11 March 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
I've often wondered why someone didn't shorten the .458 Win Mag case to 1.4" (similar to the military 1.5" version that RIP referenced above) and eliminate the taper for a .475 revolver cartridge. It seems to me that this would have worked better for use in narrower cylinder revolvers since the original .475 Linebaugh from .45-70 brass had such a large rim. Today, of course, the .475 Linebaugh rim is .540" vs the original .608", but the belted case was already .534".
 
Posts: 118 | Location: SC | Registered: 10 March 2017Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of 458PHCAPSTICK
posted Hide Post
458-400 Express runs a 400gr.bullet @1300fps.
Not to shabby for a hogleg
For the .458 mission tu2
I would post a pic of the article in Handloader magazine 1997 but can't on this site.
 
Posts: 214 | Registered: 28 September 2011Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of jwp475
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bcelliott:
I've often wondered why someone didn't shorten the .458 Win Mag case to 1.4" (similar to the military 1.5" version that RIP referenced above) and eliminate the taper for a .475 revolver cartridge. It seems to me that this would have worked better for use in narrower cylinder revolvers since the original .475 Linebaugh from .45-70 brass had such a large rim. Today, of course, the .475 Linebaugh rim is .540" vs the original .608", but the belted case was already .534".


The shortened 458 Win case has been shortened and used in revolvers. I believe John Linebaugh do this very thing.


_____________________________________________________


A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
- Winston Churchill
 
Posts: 5073 | Location: USA | Registered: 11 March 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
458PHCAPSTICK,

The .458-400 by John Gallager is unknown to me.
Thanks for stir for THE MISSION.
PM me if you have some images to send to my email that I could post for THE MISSION.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jwp475:
If it is shooting a 458 bullet then it is not duplicating the 475L

True.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by bcelliott:
I've often wondered why someone didn't shorten the .458 Win Mag case to 1.4" (similar to the military 1.5" version that RIP referenced above) and eliminate the taper for a .475 revolver cartridge. It seems to me that this would have worked better for use in narrower cylinder revolvers since the original .475 Linebaugh from .45-70 brass had such a large rim. Today, of course, the .475 Linebaugh rim is .540" vs the original .608", but the belted case was already .534".


As jpw475 said, the .458 Belted handgun has been done.
I have a Ross Seyfried article from G&A circa 1996 about the .458 WIN 1.4" and 1.6" used in a single-action revolver, probably by John Linebaugh as he said.
I feel an excerpt for "magazine review" purposes coming up.

Your .475/.458 Winchester Magnum 1.4" (why not all the way to 1.6") in a handgun is indeed a HOT-DAMN! idea.
The 1.6" might beat a .475 Linebaugh.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
quote:
Originally posted by bcelliott:
I've often wondered why someone didn't shorten the .458 Win Mag case to 1.4" (similar to the military 1.5" version that RIP referenced above) and eliminate the taper for a .475 revolver cartridge. It seems to me that this would have worked better for use in narrower cylinder revolvers since the original .475 Linebaugh from .45-70 brass had such a large rim. Today, of course, the .475 Linebaugh rim is .540" vs the original .608", but the belted case was already .534".


As jpw475 said, the .458 Belted handgun has been done.
I have a Ross Seyfried article from G&A circa 1996 about the .458 WIN 1.4" and 1.6" used in a single-action revolver, probably by John Linebaugh as he said.
I feel an excerpt for "magazine review" purposes coming up.

Your .475/.458 Winchester Magnum 1.4" (why not all the way to 1.6") in a handgun is indeed a HOT-DAMN! idea.
The 1.6" might beat a .475 Linebaugh.
tu2
Rip ...


Thanks, jpw475 and RIP. I remember that article from G&A, and I loved it as I did all the big bore revolver stuff from Seyfried, but when I read about that .458 short, I was thinking that the .454 Casull isn't far behind it, and that taper is all the more pronounced with the shortened case, so why not straighten the case and beat the .475 Linebaugh? Then I forgot about it for a while, only to remember the idea when the .500 Wyoming Express came out in the FAs.

You're right... the 1.6" .475/.458 would be a smashing revolver cartridge, and you might be able to pair a micro-length action bolt rifle or a lever action?? with it. It wouldn't be in danger of fitting in a .458 Win chamber either.
 
Posts: 118 | Location: SC | Registered: 10 March 2017Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of boom stick
posted Hide Post
From another thread. The Jolly Roger!


quote:
Originally posted by boom stick:
A fun thought... A 470 Capstick short? What? Yes. A 470 Capstick short. Cut 470 Capstick brass to 1.4", neck ream and stuff a 475 pistol bullet on the top. Like the 458 Devestator below.

http://www.singleactions.com/458Devastator.html

The 470 Capstick 1.4" (or other lengths) could clean up a 480 Ruger or Linebaugh chamber, use the same 475 barrel and on a Ruger single shot especially go higher pressure, say 60k psi? More boom, stronger brass and you probably have a bunch of used split neck brass just laying around. Maybe call it 480 Jolly Roger but 480 Roger for short. Just change the gun stamp from a u to an o on a 480 Ruger to make the 480 Roger. 480 JR!


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
 
Posts: 27501 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Nicely done, boom stick! You've already signed the guest book and left. Nice to know other people are just as crazy as I am, and I like the name idea too.
 
Posts: 118 | Location: SC | Registered: 10 March 2017Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Yes indeed thanks to boom stick for that link to Lee Martin's .458 Devastator, the 1.4" version circa 1993:



http://www.singleactions.com/458Devastator.html

I read the article there at singleactions.com where Lee tells of writing Ross Seyfried about it.
Ross then apparently had Hamilton Bowen build his 1.6" version of the same.
"The .458 BELTED BEHEMOTH" was the article in G&A magazine of JUN 1997.
Ross told of inside-reaming the cases to thin the case walls and increase case capacity.
He also had to use a rare .357 Maximum Ruger Blackhawk frame for the conversion.
I like the 1.4" version by Lee Martin with thick neck walls, and it fits a standard-length Super Blackhawk frame.
It will still out-do the .454 Casull.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Excerpt for magazine review, June 1997 Guns & Ammo:
Good magazine about guns and ammunition. Wink

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Center-fire Metallic Cartridge .450-Bore Rifle Transitions:

Flanged Transition, from BP, BPE, NFBPE, to full Nitro Express. Before it was called "Nitro Express" it was just "Special" and "Smokeless":
For the aboriginal .450-bore straight to the bottle-necked military .450-bore BPCR of 1871 transitioning to Smokeless .450 Nitro Express of 1898,
we primarily thank John Rigby the Irishman of London, England.

Belted Transition:



The belt was invented circa 1866 with Mr. Roper's false start with steel cases in the USA.
Thanks to H&H for perfecting it's use in rifle brass with the precursor to the .375 H&H of 1912, the 400/375 BELTED NITRO EXPRESS (H&H) of circa 1905.
For the .450 Watts Magnum Nitro Express Belted 2.85" of 1949,
we most heartily thank James Watts, USA as well as Winchester Arms Co., USA
for applying the H&H Coned-up throat to the H&H belted .450 Watts 2.5" in 1955,
and calling it the .458 Winchester Magnum for release in 1956.
Done to perfection: .458 WIN

Next transition is to complete the circle with a flanged BPCR that is the "Irish Twin" brother to the .458 WIN,
capable of identical-twin internal ballistics,
and perfect in the finest falling-block or double rifle: .458 FULL NITRO


tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of jwp475
posted Hide Post
The 475 Linebaugh is SAAMI spec at 50,000 PSI if memory serves a different case in the same OD cylinder will need to be no more than 50,000 PSI as well therefore same ballistics


_____________________________________________________


A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
- Winston Churchill
 
Posts: 5073 | Location: USA | Registered: 11 March 2005Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Yep, per SAAMI:

.475 Linebaugh MAP = 50,000 psi

.480 Ruger MAP = 48,000 psi

.454 Casull MAP = 65,000 psi

.458 Lott MAP = 62,500 psi

.458 Winchester Magnum MAP = 60,000 psi

The .458 Winchester Magnum is only 50 fps slower than the .458 Lott with 500-grainer if all SAAMI restrictions are adhered to for both cartridges.

It is no wonder that the .458 WIN LongCOL can beat the .458 Lott if both are loaded to the same COL and pressure.

It is, however, a wonder that the .454 Casull brass is allowed to go to 65,000 psi MAP per SAAMI.
It looks just like modern .45 Long Colt brass in cross-section of head.

The Starline .45-2.6" brass is no doubt capable of 62,500 psi in the Ruger No.1.
The RIP (Riflecrank Internationale Permanente) homologation for the .45-100 Sharps Winchester Throat 2.6-Inch will include a MAP of 62,500 psi, as of 3-30-2019 update.
Same as for .458 WIN LongCOL, a new cartridge, no longer a wildcat, as of 3-30-2018, per RIP homologation.
animal
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Another excerpt, for magazine review, from
Autumn 1996, The DOUBLE GUN & Single Shot Journal.
Review: Ross Seyfried at his finest.

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Details from the Ross Seyfried article on previous page of THE MISSION:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Rifle by Gibbs, shooting by Ross Seyfried:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
COTW 15th Edition:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 ... 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 ... 235 
 


Copyright December 1997-2022 Accuratereloading.com


Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia