I have a 360 express shotgun liner 30''

have it installed in the right [german side] of an old english hammer shotgun

now loading 38-55 brass [new] 2.125" length so .125 short for the 2.25 original brass

I load a 270 grain .366 speer spitzer flat base bullet to a col of 2.938"

I prime the case w remington 9 1/2 primer

the powder charge is 10,11,12,13,14,15 grains of acc 5744 [ a mid range "fast" powder] white powder [according to the french]--not black

the cordite load HISTORICAL is 50 gr bp & 150 grain lead bullet .365 diameter then later 30 grains of cordite under 150 grain lead bullet

the .366 speer bullet pushed through the bore only scratching the lands - marking but not imprinting the copper so somewhat over bore ed ''so as to speak''


load data suggested I could push it to 24 grains but not the 30 and not w a 270 grain bullet

looking for help

150 grain bullets and or mold at something like .368-.370 size

a better set of reloading recipes

I know about the 30 40 krag brass and the chopped 9.3 x 72r brass but I have got one of those and the brass for that runs $2-3 each

I made one from a 9.3 x 74 r and it took a day and a 20 ton press plus time in the lath so other than all that it worked just right

found the bertram brass at ---huntington-- 99 usd/20 kinda choked on that at that rate so


want to walk the load up from 15 grains to about 20 grains for a cape gun plinker

has anyone got information on the grand old round

that cut the trail for all of the .360 german copycats and then the american 30-30 25-30 30-40 krag but before even that the ballard target rifle both rimfire and centerfire

even to this day it's a great rabbit and squirrel gun-- if you have run out of white tail deer to eat-- and you are sharp enough to hit em



thanks Frank

I would use some of the voluminous 38-55 data because it is about the same thing. Lyman cast bullet handbook is full of what you want.

Sounds like a nice project.
I have suggestions but please double check on them before you take me too seriously.

I think your powder is too fast. It's "fast rifle powder" and "slow pistol powder" I think.
Might look at something down in the H322 or H355 burn rate zone. With that 30 inch barrel you can go much slower. I love Vit. "N" powders like N530. I use N540 in 50-110 Winchester.

Also, Maybe Hawk Bullets can make a run of bullets for you. You would want to slug your barrel or just send them one of your spent bullet that is still in pretty good shape.

Casting bullets is a very satisfying/enjoyable hobby. You can make cast bullets that are soft or tougher than the nuts on a bridge. depending on the alloy mix.

Good project, Brian

5744 is perfect for these BP cartridges to get BP velocities.
That is what it was made for.
It doesn't need to be filled and do not use a filler or wad!

dlcd.
Ahhh! I did not know that . Thanks, Brian

Given what you have said, the first thing I would do is slug the barrel to find out just what the bore and groove dimensions are rather than inferring those measurements from scratches on a jacket.

The next thing I would do is make a chamber cast to be absolutely sure of what the dimensions are.

Then figure out what might be a good load.

Sir Stradling, Knight of Realm Four-Five-Eight:

The .38-55 WCF and .360 NITRO EXPRESS 2-1/4" have CIP Pmax of 35,000 and 36,000 piezo PSI.
They both have a case capacity of about 52 grains H2O if the defaults in QuickLOAD are correct.

Starting loads for the .38-55 might be as hot for the .360 2-1/4" BPE. as you want to go.

AA-5744 half-case full and a light bullet like you are using (150-grainer) does indeed sound like a great place to start, and maybe end.

Matching a grease-grooved or powder-coat-painted cast lead bullet to groove diameter +0.001 is a good idea, as is the chamber cast.

Have you considered paper-patching a soft lead, smooth sided, cup-based bullet?
For the smokeless AA-5744 you want a bullet that is 0.001" larger than bore diameter, and patch it up to groove diameter or thereabouts.
It sounds like the bullet you are using is only about 0.001" bigger than your bore diameter.

Look around at Buffalo Arms Co. to see if they have anything that might help.
I just got my Care Package from them today.
I bought some .451"-diameter, 530-grain pure lead bullets from them to try in the .458 WIN and its twin brother, the .45-100 SWT.
I expect to patch it to .459" or larger.

Anyhow, if you want a QuickLOAD simulation for AA-5744 by my old version which I think is still good for AA-5744:

1. I would recommend keeping it down to 28,000 PSI.

2. Measure your chosen case capacity, in grains of H20, gross fill.

3. Measure the length of the bullet, length of case, and COL with bullet seated where you want it.

4. Assuming bullet weight of 150 grains and flat based, right?

5. Assuming default groove diameter of .365" in QuickLOAD to use their bore area.
I noticed they defaulted to a .363" bullet diameter, .002" smaller than groove!

Let me know if you want me to screw around with that simulation.
I will copy this to THE MISSION thread, to ring the MISSION BELL, of course.

Rip ...

In researching the origins of the love affair with the .450-bore rifle in the U.K.,
I came across the "Cartridge Board" article in HANDLOADER No. 272, Jun-Jul 2011: .360-2-1/4-Inch Express
by Gil Sengel.
It seems they were in love with the .360 bore too.
Sengel:

"The .360 bore was one of the calibers used for early British percussion breechloaders. They were true .36 calibers having a .360-inch bore, then rifled to whatever groove depth the barrelmaker or customer wanted."

No doubt the .360-bore rifle rode along with the fabulous .450-bore rifles in their transition from muzzleloader to "Nitro Express" loadings.

Early "Express" loads were 155-grain paper-patched bullet with 50-55 grains of black powder.
Velocity from a 30" barrel was claimed to be 1675 fps.
Bullets as light as 124-grain round-nose (paper patched) and 72-grain/.36-inch roundballs were used by target shooters and Elmer Fudd's grandfather.

Sengel:
"As late as 1925, more than 10 varieties of the .360-2-1/4-inch load were still available. Only the .577/450 Martini-Henry and .303 had more, no doubt due to their military usage around the globe. Kynoch loaded black powder in drawn cases until 1939. Coiled brass cases with black powder were available until 1901 (1919 for Eley). Nitro-for-black powder loadings lasted up to 1957 and full nitro express until Kynoch ceased loading cartridges in 1966."

Sengel's last two paragraphs say it all:

"As with all these old cartridges, much of the fun is in using the original rifles. Today factory ammunition is not loaded, but cases are easily made by shortening 9.3x72R (not 9.3x74R) brass. After slugging the bore to determine bullet diameter, black powder or light smokeless data for the similar .38-55 Winchester is usable. Full nitro loads do not have a .38-55 equivalent.

"All in all, the .360-2-1/4-inch with its range of bullets from 72-grain roundball to 300-grain full jacket solid, and powder from black to Cordite to modern smokeless, may be the most productive hunting round that has ever been. Since the quarry was just small game, however, no one ever kept track. Still, it's hard to fault a near 150-year-old centerfire round whose first cartridge case was made of paper."

Rip ...

just now back from a week at large in the world

thanks much guys


RIPPa you are johnny on the spot

guess I will need to learn how to paper patch a lead bullet once I get a mold

not trying to set the world on fire just trying to get the old gal back in service

thanks much folks Accurate reloader is absolutly packed full of brains

DCPD

to start off- thanks one more time for rushing that left hand 8mm out for my family's safari-- to the pre english-bore country of africa [IN 2016]- thanks for doing it for dam near free -- not every buddy does that -- THANKS AGAIN --fast --very,, very good-- and cheap -- DON'T EXPECT THAT TO HAPPEN AGAIN ANY TIME SOON

I have been loading 38-55 brass its 2.125 so .125 short I am loading [for now] the jacketed 270 speers long and they go good with the light to very light powder loads so question is

what is the issue running a short brass long term

in the old shotgun liner

one more point I did discover a load for the 38 55 in Richard Lee's reloading manual --page 602-- its 5744 at.... 20 - 22.5 .... grains under a 255 grain lead bullet so I feel I need to back the 360 express down from that for sure

your thoughts ?

ps - amazon is sending me the recommended book-Lyman cast bullet handbook-

quote:

"All in all, the .360-2-1/4-inch with its range of bullets from 72-grain roundball to 300-grain full jacket solid, and powder from black to Cordite to modern smokeless, may be the most productive hunting round that has ever been. Since the quarry was just small game, however, no one ever kept track. Still, it's hard to fault a near 150-year-old centerfire round whose first cartridge case was made of paper."

RIPP --the one they made to hunt germans looks a hell of a lot like it -- David Marshall "Carbine" Williams--little nasty winchester

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:

one more point I did discover a load for the 38 55 in Richard Lee's reloading manual --page 602-- its 5744 at.... 20 - 22.5 .... grains under a 255 grain lead bullet so I feel I need to back the 360 express down from that for sure

your thoughts ?

ps - amazon is sending me the recommended book-Lyman cast bullet handbook-

My copy of Richard Lee's MODERN RELOADING SECOND EDITION REVISED 2017 page 602 shows the 32-40 Winchester.
You would surely be safe using that data from min to max, with its smaller case and smaller bore, brass length 2.130".
The only load there showing PSI instead of CUP is the one with IMR Trail Boss:
196-grain lead bullet:
5.0 grains Trail Boss >>> 833 fps
6.0 grains Trail Boss >>> 935 fps <<< 25,300 PSI

Page 660 of my Lee manual shows the 38-55 Winchester,
250-grain lead bullet:
6.0 grains Trail Boss >>> 842 fps
7.0 grains Trail Boss >>> 911 fps <<< 25,600 PSI

For the AA-5744 load for the 38-55 Winchester (30" barrel) I looked in the 50th Ed. Lyman manual:

249-grain (#2 Alloy) 2.550" COL:
22.0 grains AA-5744 >>> 1456 fps <<< 19,200 CUP
24.5 grains AA-5744 >>> 1672 fps <<< 27,200 CUP

I'd have no qualms with starting off with 20.0 grains of AA-5744 with a 72-grain roundball or 150-grain conical,
and work up, with half grain increments of AA-5744.
in your shotgun-insert barrel.
Are you going to scope that Rook Rifle?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
RIPP --the one they made to hunt germans looks a hell of a lot like it -- David Marshall "Carbine" Williams--little nasty winchester

Bumfuzzled me on that one.
Was there a .360 Nazi Killer cartridge?


I'd find some 9.3x72R brass and shorten it to a perfect 2.25". It will last forever.
No worries about eroding the end of your chamber and the sloppy-throat effect with short brass.
It won't work as well as the .458 WIN does,
since you do not need long and heavy bullets seated LongCOL in a .360 NFBP Express just yet.

Rip ...

quote:

Richard Lee's MODERN RELOADING SECOND EDITION REVISED 2017 page 602

copyright 2003 -- reprint 2003-2004

it's a 38 55 page 602.603 so

I have the 9.3 * 72 brass about 400 of em just been too stingy to crop a few off -- guess on your advice I will get the chop saw out and wack 20 of em back

I resized annealed pressed annealed and die formed a 9.3 x 74 down and trimmed it then cleaned the rim down to spec and opened up the now under size primer pocket after the 20 ton press formed the base -- loaded that one fired it in the shotgun liner so after a hard creative day of doing that the $3.oo 9.3 x 72 brass seemed much less expensive --I NOW USE THE IN HOUSE MANUFACTURED BRASS AS A ''TROPHY IN STUPIDITY''-- so in the end I did get my money's worth out of that days effort

shot out the test loads from 10 gn to 19

19 worked good and had-- to me-- surprising accuracy at 50 yards

grouped at --about a hard baseball --shooting off hand with just the shotgun bead

looks like I have now got the little gun up and runnin

Great! Look out Bugs Bunny.
If it is shooting like that with just a front bead and offhand, you must have found the sweet spot.
Stop there.
Is there a rib on that shotgun for attachment of rifle sights?
Must be about like shotgun pressure, and that is plenty for a barrel insert.

Rip ...

found out buffalo arms is sizing down the 303 british and turning back the rim to make brass for the 360 express

in the paper patch bullet section they have 250 grain .365 diameter swaged bullets w a hollow base that upsets-- to grip the rifle

also have a 300 grain bullet and a 38 template to cut the paper patch

22 grains of reloader 7 was recommended

have the bullets here very well done as are most swaged bullets

about there now using brass 12 gauge case to load up the shotgun side

so if by chance you have a good load recipe for a damascus gun ---please pass me the plate --

would like to use smokeless powder pistol primers and old fashioned lead shot flat shot card on top
glue not crimp or so and such

also need a bit of help on the 16 x 16 over 9.3 x72r drilling

do have brass cases for that as well if I must use em

what shotgun ammo for that old gal

and we will have all 5 combination guns up and running for a shoot out once the storms move through

The shotgun side

loaded a 2 1/2 inch brass case w

65 grains of Pyrodex
circle fly over powder
a preconditioned wad
1 oz of #4 shot--went 1/8 oz lite for starters
an over shot card
glue so no crimp
the primer was a large pistol

we turned off a set of the loading tools in the gun shop

will shoot for effect tomorrow, if good will load up a 25 round box of em

and just might have a cobbled together cape gun

12 gauge 2 1/2 x .360 express



on the ''old english damascus hammer gun'' --

fun way to get a history lesson

anyone with a better shotgun load to share? -- that would be much appreciated

I am a bit green in this water

Before you go ordering a custom paper patch mold for your 360, try patching a few .358" cast bullets and see how they do.
I swage paper patch bullets for my 360s with a swage die for making jacketed RN .358s.
Swaging a lead bullet without the jacket gives me a perfect .358" slick that patches right up to .366" which is good when using smokeless powder but seems to work with black as well.

Here in a 360 2-1/2"




And here in a 360 No.5



Not the proper bullet for the No.5 but works very well all the same.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH

I have some 358429 (SWC)cast projies that came out 0.368"
If you would like to try some let me know and I will put them on the mail.
One could just fill the lube groove with their fingers and see what happens.

PM or email if you are interested, I may not get back to this thread.

Nothing ventured, Nothing gained

PM sent