in 1982 a distributor rep brought into the store a rem 721 in 300 H&H. said his buddy shot a few rds thru it and the recoil was too much. i bought it and a case and NIB dies for it. has been on maybe 12 hunting outings with me, very accurate. problem is, it chambers factory and virgin brass reloads like budda. sized brass is a crap shoot. it either won't chamber at all, is medium hard to chamber, or won't chamber. rotating the brass sometimes helps, sometimes not. i have marked the brass on an easy chambering, put it back in the same place, won't chamber. over the years we have modified dies, used gimmic dies, had a smith check for burrs and lightly polish the chamber, etc. took it to a smith of some renown in south texas, old school guy, and he looked at the bbl and showed me where one of the symbols/proof marks on the bbl by the chamber was a smidgen too close to the chamber. said it told him that someone was going to make the chamber tighter ( my words i can't remember his exactly) and set it too far back. said he could rechamber it to some damn thing (260?? i don't know) but he was booked for 8 months. i wasn't gonna do it anyway. i took pics of the proof marks but can't post em here. if one of you gurus is interested i will text/email the pics to you. in any case..........opinions? thank you.

Yes, if it chambers factory rounds, then it is your reloading dies, because the belt is not changed by a die but the shoulder can be.
What are gimmick dies?
Anyway, I can check it and make the chamber the SAAMI spec, if that is what you want.
PM me if serious.

gimmick die is my description. and i admit i may be way off. it is a die i ordered from a guy in florida that used to advertise about how the 300 H&H gave everyone headaches to reload and he had a die that could be adjusted to headspace fired brass correctly. gave a spiel about how the secret service used his dies when they used the 300 H&H for their 1000 yd sniper round. it may be all true. i couldn't get it to work, so OF COURSE its the dies fault, not mine. see how that works out?

Are the firing pin impressions on or off center? A pic might help..

quote:

Originally posted by john c.:
gimmick die is my description.

We had a joker here marketing super-dies. Said that they were fully adjustable sizing dies. People raved about how good they were for several years and I finally caught up with him at a gun show. He had a whole table with his sizing dies in just about every common cartridge complete with 1000 yard targets and groups the size of bug sphincters. Closer inspection revealed that they were nothing more than Lee sizers that he had trimmed .010 or .020 inch off the bottom of, turned off the Lee branding in his hobby lathe and then re-branded them with an engraving pencil. I can spot a Lee die a mile away, in heavy bush! I didn't say anything to him but I quietly let the word out and in a year or so, him and his magic dies dried up and blew away.

When I used Rem 700s a lot I sometimes came across that. The fix was to polish the front of the extractor. If it has burrs or is rough it can make chambering difficult.

j c A friend bought a new 721 in the fifties. Still has it and it works flawlessly with factory ammo and shoots about an inch at 100 yds. Those are some finely made actions. How does it shoot factory ammo like Remington cor-lokt PSP's? Have you tried those?

never tried a factory rd in it. i shoot only reloads in any of my guns unless i just can't. but the gun chambers factory rds and new brass and new brass reloads just fine so theres no reason to shoot factorys. accuracy isn't an issue. hard chambering of reloads is.
i can ship it out of state to a generous highly qualifed member here to be fixed but am scared shitless of it getting lost/stolen in transport. its like land, they don't make em anymore.

ship it registered mail. has to be signed for by everybody handling it

The one thing I have not read in this discussion is how far are you setting the shoulder back when you resize.

Lets go to basics. Headspace in a belted magnum is measured off the belt, basically base to belt. You can look that up. Manufacturers then cut the base to shoulder distance to whatever length they want. Base to shoulder length is not controlled in the rifle, in the ammunition, nor in the sizing die.

The first thing to do is buy one of the Wilson belted magnum case gages mentioned in this article.:

Extending Cartridge Case Life
https://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar46.htm

I recommend reading the article as it is very informative about bottle neck case sizing. For a belted magnum, to properly push the shoulder back, you have to have one of these belted magnum case gages, and you have to have a different one for each of your 300 H&H rifles because the shoulder to base distance will be less for each rifle. Manufacturers don't control that distance, they are free to make it whatever they want.

Now the next thing to do, is grease up some factory rounds and fire them in your rifle. This is something I do, because it prevents sidewall stretch. These 300 H&H cases are around $2.00 each and expensive, I don't want a lot of sidewall stretch on the first firing.

This is my test instrument:




And these are examples of the amount of lube I put on the bullet and case. Basically you don't need any more lube than you use in sizing cases:




And these greased cartridges shoot well:




Lubricated cases come out a perfect fit to the chamber they were fired in, and best of all, they are stress free. No sidewall stretch, no case head separations. What happens is instead of the case neck gripping the chamber, and fixing the case in place, which then requires the case body to stretch to the bolt face, when cases are greased, they slide to the bolt face, the shoulders fold out, and you have a perfectly formed and stress free case. This is why Bench rest world champions do this. Now that you have cases perfectly fireformed, and stress free fire , put the fired cases in the belted magnum gage and set up the gage. You have to set up the gage with a fired case. Next, size one of your cases. I have a feeling that your sizing die is not pushing the shoulder back enough, again, the gun maker and the die maker did not agree or coordinate on the base to shoulder distance, because that dimension is not controlled. I assume that you ran your sizing die down to the shell holder plus a quarter turn, and by doing that, in the typical die, the case is sized the maximum amount. You can't size the case any shorter in the typical die. If your sizing die, run down to the shell holder, won't push the shoulder back 0.003", you will need to grind material off the bottom of the die, because the die is too long.

Greasing your brass also causes maximum axial bolt thrust, and potentially could cause excessive pressure if it gets on the bullet; therefore, I do not recommend doing that. I am not telling you what to do. I am warning new reloaders.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Greasing your brass also causes maximum axial bolt thrust

Yes it will.


James Boatwright is a retired Aerospace Engineer, he maintains a very interesting site called "The well guided bullet" http://www.thewellguidedbullet.com/index.html There Mr Boatwright has a number of technical articles that are worth reading, for they all pertain to the strength of actions.

The one related to this discussion is the article titled Steel Support for the Brass Cartridge Case
http://www.thewellguidedbullet...assCartridgeCase.pdf
And a short quote from that article that is directly related to this topic is here:

quote:

Oiling a rimless cartridge case fitting our chamber with the usual 1to 6milsof total headspace should produce about the same 6282 pounds of peak bolt thrust as firing our example cartridge with zero headspace in a properly clean and dry chambering our strong example rifle . Oiling the case or oiling the chamber does not increase the amount of potential bolt thrust per seit simply interferes with the brass case absorbing much of it instead of transferring all available thrust to the bolt face. It seems that we have come to regard as “normal” the situation where we are stretching our brass cartridge cases to control bolt thrust.

The thought never occurred to me, till Mr Boatwright went into detail on this, but he is absolutely right. That is neck sized, or an "interference fit" case absolutely maximizes the thrust on the bolt. For cases to carry load, they have to stretch. Like a bungee jumper and his bungee cords. There is an example of a jumper who crafted his own bungee cord from alligator cords. Unfortunately, he made the bungee cord too long, he did not take into account, apparently cord stretch. When he jumped, instead of the bungee cord taking the full load of his body, by stretching, it did not stretch, the jumper hit his head on the pavement beneath the bridge and he died. In an analogous fashion, if you neck size, and the case is a slight crush fit on chambering, it does not stretch when fired, because there is no clearance between the shoulder of the case and the top of the bolt face, and thus, the maximum possible case thrust is imparted to the bolt face.

So, when I grease, or lubricate my cases, I am imparting the same force, as if I was neck sizing.

And so what. Do you think the action can't take it, was not designed to take it? Just exactly what forces is an action designed to take? I would like all those concerned about bolt thrust to tell me, just how you would design a locking mechanism. Just what would you use as a maximum load?

I'll tell you how I would do it, I would assume the maximum load to be the maximum pressure of the cartridge times the diameter of the case at maximum case head separation. For a rimless case, pretty much that is maximum cartridge pressure times the OD of the case. That will give the maximum load on the bolt face. As long as you don't exceed the maximum pressures of the cartridge, you are not going to over stress anything. Ever noticed those SAAMI maximum pressures in loading manuals? There is a relation ship between and the structural integrity of your rifles. Its called load.

The next question is, and this is the most important question to those who are concerned about bolt thrust, is just by how much do you weaken the locking mechanism, assuming the case carries load? I would like to know this, and I will offer a simple way to think of this, if the question is too confusing for you. Lets say the 100 % load, that is the maximum load, is pressure maximum times the OD of the case. So by how much, in percentage do you weaken the locking mechanism, assuming the case carries load. Do you weaken the locking mechanism by 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, or even more? And how do you maintain that in the field? After all, after weakening your locking mechanism by a fixed amount, won't your action break if someone fires a neck sized case in the action, or leaves oil in the chamber, or chambers oily rounds?

quote:

and potentially could cause excessive pressure if it gets on the bullet;

That is nonsense. I am of the opinion you are just repeating nonsense you heard.

Just to touch base on the 10 points of firearms safety endorsed by all of the munitions and firearms manufactures and pretty much everyone else in the industry, including the military:

Please re-read #8, carefully.

https://www.nssf.org/safety/rules-firearms-safety/

8. Be Sure The Barrel Is Clear Of Obstructions Before Shooting
Before you load your firearm, open the action and be certain that no ammunition is in the chamber or magazine. Then glance through the barrel to be sure it is clear of any obstruction. Even a small bit of mud, snow, excess lubricating oil or grease in the bore can cause dangerously increased pressures, causing the barrel to bulge or even burst on firing, which can cause injury to the shooter and bystanders. Make it a habit to clean the bore with a cleaning rod and patch to wipe away anti-rust compounds in the gun each time immediately before you shoot it. If the noise or recoil on firing seems weak or doesn't seem quite "right", cease firing immediately and be sure to check that no obstruction or projectile has become lodged in the barrel. Placing a smaller gauge or caliber cartridge into a gun (such as a 20 gauge shell in a 12 gauge shotgun) can result in the smaller cartridge falling into the barrel and acting as a bore obstruction when a cartridge of proper size is fired. This is a dangerous situation that can result in a burst barrel or worse, and is really a case where "haste makes waste". You can easily avoid this type of accident by paying close attention to each cartridge you insert into your firearm.

Bolt axial thrust is a function of the Inside area of the brass case. Not the outside. The gas pressure does not act on the OD. Anyway, I didn't say that constantly subjecting your rifle to the maximum back thrust was a bad thing, I just said it was a thing. Obturation of the brass case absorbs a large part of the back trust; (Ackley's tests). How much is the life of your rifle decreased? I don't know. For sure, on some rifles it will cause receiver lug seat, setback. I have an 03 Springfield here right now with it. High number. And 93 Mausers will set back, and some 98s. I want to keep as much back thrust off the receiver as I can, and the brass case obturation helps with that.
As for the grease in the bore and on the bullet; read what Speer said. Now, that is well documented in military data, about blown up rifles from grease and oil in the bore.
Bottom line, for new reloaders, my advice is not to do this. Advanced reloaders, go for it. You know best.

quote:

Now the next thing to do, is grease up some factory rounds and fire them in your rifle.

Just to pile on a little more. Hatcher wrote about match shooters doing this with 03 Springfields. Many rifle were destroyed, shooters were injured, including some blinded.

That is a very nice M-70. Even if the rifle does not come apart I bet the chamber is now oversized and the bolt set back.

john

No worries.

You'll get it.

quote:

Originally posted by john c.:
never tried a factory rd in it. i shoot only reloads in any of my guns unless i just can't. but the gun chambers factory rds and new brass and new brass reloads just fine so theres no reason to shoot factorys. accuracy isn't an issue. hard chambering of reloads is.
i can ship it out of state to a generous highly qualifed member here to be fixed but am scared shitless of it getting lost/stolen in transport. its like land, they don't make em anymore.

I haven't read a mention of checking case length. Is it possible after firing the brass stretches causing the case neck to contact the leade?

Well, I do have one of those silly Associate Arts and Sciences Degrees from the Colorado School of Trades Gunsmithing. I did do my 6 years apprenticeship as a gunsmith. I have worked for most all of the major arms manufacturers at one time or another over the last 35 years and I did operate a Proof House in Canada on behalf of Remington Arms for 13 years. I understand that this doesn't stand up to well against a degree in Electrical or Environmental Engineering, or even a Bachelors degree in Liberal Arts in these circumstances.

However !

It has always been my observation that there will always be that one person who will fly in the face of tens of thousands of designers and engineers, hundreds of manufacturers, thousands of repairmen, tens of millions of people in the field and nearly 100 years of documented testing and experience.


But, from what limited training I do have and my personal experience and observation in this matter, I will at this point go out on a limb and recommend that a person SHOULD NOT, under any circumstances, lubricate ammunition and then fire it.

Govern yourselves accordingly.

I don't think you have a problem, if the rifle shoots factory stuff it will shoot handloads. I would set my die to full length esize with the die bottom touching the case holder with a bump as direction state, try it, if that doesn't work you can file the top of of your cartridge holder down a bit so the case can go in further, go a little at a time. if it gets too thin you will need a new one but case holders only cast a buck and a half....if this doesn't work send 3 fired cases from your rifle to the die maker and they will cut the die to fit those cases, and your fixed.. I doubt if they will charge you for that..I use RCBS dies and have had this done on several occasions with European chambers and was out only $6.00 for shipping...

If you have some funky dies, then go buy a set of Redding or RCBS dies, as that could easily be your problem.

I see no reason at this point in messing with a factory chamber, that would be a last resort IMO. I seriously doubt that the barrel has been set back unless it had headspace at one time, in which case I would start with a chamber cast not some stamp positioning..

quote:

It has always been my observation that there will always be that one person who will fly in the face of tens of thousands of designers and engineers, hundreds of manufacturers, thousands of repairmen, tens of millions of people in the field and nearly 100 years of documented testing and experience.

It is my observation that Hatcherites are tenuous about being wrong. I brought out what I thought would be a good way to show you the absurdity of your position by showing that neck sizing cases has the same affects on bolt thrust as does case lubrication, and all the Hatcherites here, totally ignored that. Hatcherites cannot reconcile this, and the multitude of existing, physical systems that show the absurdity of their beliefs, so, Hatcherites dismiss it all.

Hatcherism is a belief system based on authority. It is hard to be overly sarcastic about authority, I mean, at some point, we all rely on "trusted" authority, because we do not have enough time to test all the things we have been taught.

One should not believe that authority is always right, some times it is genuinely mis informed, sometimes there is a hidden agenda about authority:



Do you believe smoking is healthy because some “Dentist” recommended a particular brand of cigarettes?. Well of course you do, or are supposed to. I have lived long enough to find, at least in the medical field, whatever now is considered bad, or healthy, twenty years from now, the recommendations will be 180 degrees opposite. Is everyone still taking their vitamin C pill in the morning. https://www.quackwatch.org/01Q...dTopics/pauling.html How about those herbal supplements? Authority told you they were good for you, turns out those herbal supplements were simply mixes of garlic, rice, beans, https://well.blogs.nytimes.com...n-those-supplements/ but you felt better, and they really did not hurt you.

I know the origins about the catastrophic concerns about oiled/greased cases, and of greased bullets. I know that it is a cover up over 100 years old, really, a 100 year Army cover up that the shooting community still embraces and believes. I call it Hatcherism, after its main proponent, but Hatcher did not invent it, but without him, it would have fizzled away as did a lot of nonsense from that era. What is amazing is that this is still a core belief system among the shooting community. The world, and firearms history are full of examples of firearms firing lubricated ammunition, or of gas lubrication, all of which should blow big holes in Hatcherism, but the confirmation bias in Hatcherites is so strong, they sweep all that off the table. If I were a psychologist, I would be filthy rich charging by the hour, for each Hatcherite is uniquely delusional. Each and every one of them occupies their own special fantasy physical universe, and it would take years, to figure out for each individual, just what was their unique major malfunction. And of course, Hatcherites are legion. I have found asking them “obvious” questions to be a total failure. Their confirmation bias is so great, they confabulate nonsensical fantasies. Design questions are incomprehensible to a Hatcherite. I have never received an answer from a Hatcherite on how he would design an action and what loads he would design his action to carry. On one forum, I posted my pictures of greased cartridges, and asked the Hatcherite why I was not having the overpressure problems his theories required . His answer was that I was not using a good enough lubricant, and if I had (his ultimate lubricant was Imperial Sizing Wax), then my fired cases would come “serrated”. Imagine that, with his favorite lubricant, he believed my fired cases would look like cup cake cups!. It had never occurred to the Hatcherite that I had shot cases with Imperial Sizing wax on them, and they did not eject from the gun looking as crinkled cup cake cups. In this thread, I basically asked, “how would you design an action”. As typical of Hatcherites, they ignore this. I am coming to the conclusion that to a Hatcherite, any question that starts “how would you do…” just does not register. It is very reasonable to ask, if load (thrust ) is your concern, just how would you design a locking mechanism? What loads would you assume?. What loads would you design your locking mechanism to carry?

Hatcherites can't answer that, because it would reveal the absurdity of their beliefs.

quote:

Well, I do have one of those silly Associate Arts and Sciences Degrees from the Colorado School of Trades Gunsmithing. I did do my 6 years apprenticeship as a gunsmith. I have worked for most all of the major arms manufacturers at one time or another over the last 35 years and I did operate a Proof House in Canada on behalf of Remington Arms for 13 years. I understand that this doesn't stand up to well against a degree in Electrical or Environmental Engineering, or even a Bachelors degree in Liberal Arts in these circumstances.

Not all proof testing is conducted the same. I don’t know how Remington conducts their proof testing. But, I do know that the English Proof House conduct their proof testing with lubricated cases, and so do NATO EPVAT Testing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_EPVAT_testing I do not have the language skills to read anything but English, and thus I cannot research German, Sweden, Norway, France, proof house information on the web, but based on the book I have about proof testing, I am quite certain all the European Proof Houses proof test with lubricated cases.

I am going to tell you why proof testing with a lubricated cartridge is technically justifiable, but I would still be interested in your comments since you believe it catastrophic.

These European proof houses more or less are independent agencies and do not represent the manufacturer. They do more than simply than shoot the firearm, they gage the thing, verify its function. When they put their chop on the firearm, it is their reputation at stake, not the reputation of some profit maximizing corporation . I read posts where Proof Houses were also testing ammunition, ammunition can’t be sold unless the pressures have been verified by the Proof House. I don’t know just how many rounds they test, I would like to know what they are doing in this regard. But in terms of Proof Testing firearms, you cannot sell a firearm that has not passed through the Proof House, at each time of sale. So a firearm may be proofed several times.

They lubricate the case because breaking the friction between case and chamber fully loads the locking mechanism. If they did not do that, then the 30% over proof test would not be technically justifiable. The cartridge case would be taking some of the load and therefore the locking mechanism would not be fully loaded, making the proof test invalid.

I don’t think you aware of the mechanisms that used greased and oiled cartridges. How do they figure in your understanding of firearms? Will confirmation bias simply discard them off the table?

How does this fit into your understanding of firearms?



Are you aware that Mauser’s M1916 8mm rifle used greased ammunition?
http://www.forgottenweapons.co.../mauser-selbstlader/
It was not a success because only the Zeppelin service had a clean enough environment for the thing to operate in, but you know, it was fielded.

There is a myth about over lubrication, at lease these guys are trying to address it:

The myth of over lubrication

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9bOT_d60LM

quote:

Bolt axial thrust is a function of the Inside area of the brass case.

I disagree. I have taken the data from this Army chart, and based on measurements, the bolt thrust of a heavily lubricated case is just in the sidewall. Given that there are frictional losses, it is better to use OD to size your mechanism.



Also, something that is interesting, you can barely see it in the chart, but in the tabular data, which I will not present, lubricated bullets actually lower pressures. There is a slight, but measurable, pressure drop when the bullet is lubricated. I am of the opinion that this is due to reduced frictional forces when the bullet is engraved in the throat. It might also be due to a slicker barrel interior.

quote:

How much is the life of your rifle decreased? I don't know.

That is worth thinking about. What lifetime are firearms designed to? Hatcherites make the assumption that a firearm was built for an infinite number of firing cycles. I am unaware of any mechanical or civil structure that was built for an infinite lifetime, outside of the Pyramids. Built a rifle to the weight of even the smallest Pyramid, the locking mechanism will last an infinite number of firing cycles, but you will still have to replace the barrel. All modern structures are designed based on a maximum load, and a duty cycle. There are many more parameters, but these are basic to everything. How much and how long. Based on data from AR15.com, you can expect AR15 bolt to start cracking around 10,000 rounds. I expect most centerfire rifle bolts were designed for the same lifetime.

But, for everyone here, reduce your loads, and you will increase the fatigue lifetime of all the components. Don't count on the case reducing bolt thrust and increasing the fatigue lifetime of your bolt. If you can't specify by how much to weaken the locking mechanism, assuming the case carries load, you also have not the slightest idea, how much that load reduction will increase the fatigue life of the locking mechanism.

quote:

For sure, on some rifles it will cause receiver lug seat, setback. I have an 03 Springfield here right now with it. High number. And 93 Mausers will set back, and some 98s. I want to keep as much back thrust off the receiver as I can, and the brass case obturation helps with that.

The greatest problem with those old Mauser actions is poor metallurgy and that the service round of the era produced 43,000 psia. (it was measured in CUP, but the assumption was CUP=PSIA). Many on this site have converted old Mausers, particularly WW1 era Mausers, such as the 1910 or 1912 large ring Mausers, to belted magnums. These belted magnums are operating around 65,000 psia and the increased diameter of the case really pushes bolt thrust about 80% above the bolt thrust of a 8mm WW1 service round. The "gunsmiths" that do that here, are absolutely positive that they are not doing something unsafe, and I have disagreed with them on that. I absolutely disagree that dry cases in dry chambers somehow makes this safe. The conversion is unsafe in all conditions as the action will be over stressed. I consider the idea that attempting to reduce bolt thrust, by keeping both the case and chamber perfectly dry, to be about as fallacious as thinking that wrapping yourself in bubble wrap means you can jump in front of a train and survive the impact. It is delusional nonsense.

quote:

As for the grease in the bore and on the bullet; read what Speer said. Now, that is well documented in military data, about blown up rifles from grease and oil in the bore.

That comes from Hatcher’s Notebook. It has a chronology and a timeline. The US Army built one million M1903 rifles that were, as a population, unsafe to the user. The production started in 1903. The Army did not have temperature gages in their factory and every time steel was heated in the forge shops and in the heat treat ovens, temperatures were judged by eye balls. Parts were frequently and consistently over heated, creating brittle parts. Later tests, in 1927, revealed that about 1/3 of these rifles would shatter in over pressure conditions. These rifles were issued and they blew up on the firing line and injured Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and civilians. The Army did not acknowledge they were making bad rifles, what the Army did was find a way to pass the blame onto shooters. Period cupro nickle bullets fouled bores to an incredible degree, but greasing the bullet would eliminate this fouling.



I have fired cupro nickel bullets and you would not believe how hard it was to remove bullet fouling. Until you experience the bullet fouling these things create, you have no idea just how bad it was. But anyway, American competitive shooters were greasing their bullets and when an Army rifle blew up with issue ammunition, the Army blamed the grease. You can understand the logic, perfect rifles, perfect ammunition, it must be the grease. But of course, the rifles were defective and the Army knew it. I have never found an official Army acknowledgement that the Army knowingly issued unsafe rifles to its troops, what I find instead, is Army denial. But, the Army did issue rifles that were unsafe to its troops, knowingly sold those rifles to the Navy, Marines, and civilians, and when these rifles blew up, blamed the shooter.



I find that amazing that the American shooting community was then, and now, totally oblivious to the number of nations who fielded ammunition with greased bullets. Swiss ammunition came into the US not so long ago, and the bullets were greased:




The 1920’s US Army knew of this, but said we could ignore what the Swiss were doing because the Swiss are idiots who use this ammunition to shoot holes in cheese. I have found that the Austrian’s greased their steel jacketed bullets, apparently so did the Russians, Italians, maybe a couple of more. This was all before good bullet jacket materials were developed. Greasing steel jacketed bullets reduced barrel wear.

I don’t disagree with removing grease from any barrel. I push out grease if there is any in the barrel. I don’t bother with pushing a patch down an oily barrel. I will just fire a round downrange and foul the barrel that way. However, grease on a cartridge, no pressure problems what so ever.



30-06 ammunition grossly coated in lubriplate grease. Before on left, after on right.



More of the same:









The pictures show clear evidence that the entire case is floating in grease at the time of firing. No excessive bolt thrust as long as I am below SAAMI pressures.

Shoots fine at 100 yards:



And as I have shown in a previous post, shoots fine at 300 yards. Shoots fine at 600 yards:

quote:

Obturation of the brass case absorbs a large part of the back trust

Not with cases that are neck sized. You have totally ignored, dismissed from all consideration, the problem case neck sizing does for your bolt thrust theories. You have absolutely, positively ignored this as it does not fit into your world. All Hatcherites must do this, because they must dismiss everything that shows the fallacies of their beliefs. Call it confirmation bias.

Now for cases that have some clearance, I don’t disagree, they will carry load when they are stretched. . Now, is that good? Lets start with one of the implicit thoughts behind Hatcherism, that is , the action is weak and the case is strong. I am certain the opposite is true, the action is strong and the case is weak. It is madness to think those thin brass sidewalls are there to take load off a ½” shear path of tempered, alloy steel.



The action is there to support the case as much as possible, to take as much load as possible off the case. The cartridge case in fact, is simply a gas seal. Rupture the gas seal and all sorts of bad things will happen. I don’t want to stress my cartridge cases, in fact I want them to last, and last. So why do Hatcherites want to trade off case life, and safety, in the crazy idea that they are somehow protecting that locking mechanism? When you cause the case to carry load you are permanently deforming the case. Why do you want to do this?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I don't think you have a problem, if the rifle shoots factory stuff it will shoot handloads. I would set my die to full length esize with the die bottom touching the case holder with a bump as direction state, try it, if that doesn't work you can file the top of of your cartridge holder down a bit so the case can go in further, go a little at a time. if it gets too thin you will need a new one but case holders only cast a buck and a half....if this doesn't work send 3 fired cases from your rifle to the die maker and they will cut the die to fit those cases, and your fixed.. I doubt if they will charge you for that..I use RCBS dies and have had this done on several occasions with European chambers and was out only $6.00 for shipping...

If you have some funky dies, then go buy a set of Redding or RCBS dies, as that could easily be your problem.

I see no reason at this point in messing with a factory chamber, that would be a last resort IMO. I seriously doubt that the barrel has been set back unless it had headspace at one time, in which case I would start with a chamber cast not some stamp positioning..

it has been YEARS (1984?) since i tried to solve this problem. to the best of recollection we took a few thou off the sizing die, but honestly i am going to have to dig it out and check again. i'll be home again fri and will do that. but since it didn't work then, i am going to send the die and a fired case or 2 to someone that has graciously volunteered to check the die and see que pasa.

John,

If you presently have a case that chambers hard can you color it all black with a sharpie marker then try chambering it again, then take a pic of where the interference is happening from the scratch marks? If you need me to post the pics for you send me a PM.


Mark

PM sent

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:


Well, I do have one of those silly Associate Arts and Sciences Degrees from the Colorado School of Trades Gunsmithing. I did do my 6 years apprenticeship as a gunsmith. I have worked for most all of the major arms manufacturers at one time or another over the last 35 years and I did operate a Proof House in Canada on behalf of Remington Arms for 13 years. I understand that this doesn't stand up to well against a degree in Electrical or Environmental Engineering, or even a Bachelors degree in Liberal Arts in these circumstances.

Go back to my joke: what is the difference between an engineer and an accountant? Ans: the accountant knows that he is not an engineer (or a gunsmith, or a software developer, et al).

after 3 tries i found a reload that would chamber. was medium stiff but still chambered. blacked it up real good with a sharpie and chambered and ejected it. took pics as i rolled it around. then chambered it and shot it, ejected it and took more pics, which hopefully sooner than later will get posted. also, COAL and CASE LENGTH measure well below max.

am thinking maybe i should black up said fired case again and then chamber/eject it? lemme know. case was dropped into chamber both times, not run thru mag.

did not forget pics. been told they will be posted this afternoon. maybe i can get my gun back a shooting roll ur owns soon!

well, i'm afeared my pic poster has taken ill again. anyone else know how to post pics i could send em to? thanks

quote:

Originally posted by john c.:
well, i'm afeared my pic poster has taken ill again. anyone else know how to post pics i could send em to? thanks

rodhenrickson@shaw.ca

Way too much drama on this. Just send me your sizing die and I will fix it for you.
It's just me; can't stand to see issues jawed to death and back. I prefer just to fix things and move on.

300 h h 11 by Rod Henrickson, on Flickr

300 h h 10 by Rod Henrickson, on Flickr


300 h h 9 by Rod Henrickson, on Flickr


300 h h 8 by Rod Henrickson, on Flickr


300 h h 6 by Rod Henrickson, on Flickr


300 h h 4 by Rod Henrickson, on Flickr


300 h h 2 by Rod Henrickson, on Flickr


300 h h 1 by Rod Henrickson, on Flickr

I would prefer someone with experience with blackened cases, but was this chamber cut with a worn out 300 H&H reamer?

If it was, all it would take is a nice, new chambering reamer to be run up the chamber, turned enough times to enlarge the chamber, without increasing base to shoulder, or headspace off the belt.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
I would prefer someone with experience with blackened cases, but was this chamber cut with a worn out 300 H&H reamer?

If it was, all it would take is a nice, new chambering reamer to be run up the chamber, turned enough times to enlarge the chamber, without increasing base to shoulder, or headspace off the belt.

Yah recon, huh?

what about the ring on the brass below the shoulder on the fired pics? does that say anything?

quote:

Originally posted by john c.:
what about the ring on the brass below the shoulder on the fired pics? does that say anything?

It is such a shame that those who claim to be gunsmiths, and who claim years of formal gunsmithing education have not replied , surely their experience and education would provide a more accurate, a truer, more knowledgeable assessment, than what I am going to offer.

I am of the opinion that the ring below the shoulder shows an interference fit. The case, after the pressures of combustion, does not have clearance between the case and chamber. This diagram describes the essential issues:



A properly designed and built case/chamber combination would after firing, have the clearance illustrated on the left. An over pressure case, a case without sufficient starting clearance, and a case that changes its hardness, will give the interference described on the right.

The amount of clearance between an unfired case and chamber is in the thousandth’s.



Incidentally this is carefully calculated and modeled during the design phase. The case is divided into hoop sections, each section is assigned a thickness and hardness, the barrel is assumed to be a uniform hardness, the expansion and contraction of both are calculated. It is undesirable to have a interference between the two after combustion is over and pressures are zero.

Now what I think is, you have a chamber cut with a worn reamer. You could make a chamber cast with cerrosafe, and try to compare measurements against a SAAMI chamber drawing, if you can find it. I expect you would need measuring devices that are consistent to the tens of thousandths, which would mean an accuracy to the hundreds of thousandths. But, considering that few people have access to a calibration lab, and the tools we use are cheap Harbor Freight tools, whose calibration was never good, and which have since been out of calibration, any measurements you take with home tools, you might see patterns which are not there.

I am of the opinion the best course of action is to find someone who has a new 300 H&H reamer and have them stick that in the chamber and turn it and clear out the interference. I have installed short chambered barrels on several rifles, getting a reamer in the chamber is simple. Coat it with a lot of oil, I found a metric socket would fit over the square shaft of the reamer, and I have a Craftsman Speeder bar, which I bought new in the 1970’s, and I cut chambers to depth. I had “Go” and “No Go” gages, to measure the chamber headspace, and if you are slow and very cautious, this is not a big deal. If you cut the chamber too deep, you have ruined the barrel.

It may be possible to find someone who would cut a sizing die even smaller than you current chamber, but I bet that would be even more expensive that what I propose.

Well I have arisen back from the dead with this GD Influenza crap, Rod thanks for stepping in and hosting the pics!

Well, you basically have a combination of problems working against you. It's chambering factory and virgin brass so the chamber is in spec. You're hanging up on your main body taper and your delta measurement. One of the problems with the H&H case is the sharp body taper. After they are fired they don't tend to spring back like straight wall cases do. The problem is compounded as the brass gets older and tougher. Possibly a new die would correct the problem and if a friend has a 300 H&H sizer you could have him resize your problem cases and see if that solves the problem. Then just buy a new die set. Short of that you can send the die to Tom and have him knock .010 inch off the back of the die and start annealing your cases every second or third firing if you need further sizing. Actually if you have a machine shop close by, take the die to them and have them nip off .010 inch from the base and have them break the sharp corner left by the machining. The only problem with doing this is that the belt might begin to pick up. The belt to base measurement on belted magnum cartridge cases are cut to the Weatherby Standard (GO) gauge which is .216 to .217 inch (from most manufactures). The chamber itself with be cut to the American Standard (GO) gauge which is generally .220 to .221 so you do have .003 to .004 inch there to play with before the belt picks up. Possibly more, depending on the die makers who often over cut the belt measurement because it is a non-dimension. Tom or the machine shop could also over cut the belt measurement as well. The problem is that the shipping and the machining will quickly outstrip the price of a new, $40 sizing die.

https://leeprecision.com/3-die-set-300-h-h.html

thanks for the replies. lots of good infor. to be had. for now the plan is to ship the RCBS and HORNADY resizing dies to tom along with some fired cases and go from there. hope like hell thats all there is to it.

UPDATE.....
ok, i feel like an idiot, but here goes. my son is here and we were discussing the old 300 mag and sending the dies off etc etc and playing with it and he said whens the last time you fired a factory rd thru it and i said never. only reloads. he said shit it won't chamber factorys either. i said of course it will i have done it before. he dropped a factory in it, it chambered, he rotated the case, and it WON'T CHAMBER. bolt won't close. tried a different factory (WW) and same thing. went through a box with the same result. the first time we close the bolt its a little stiff or easy. lift bolt, extract, rotate round, and its either hard as hell or won't close. now i'm embarrased AND pissed. damn.