I recently have become disillusioned with the folks who made the only custom gun I own. The rifle doesn't really shoot any more accurately than any of the factory guns I have. Can you recommend a custom rifle maker that makes accurate rifles and guarantees some sort of accuracy?

Also, for around 3000 dollars, what kind of accuracy should be expected? I mean, I have factory guns that shoot 1/2" groups at 100. I would hope that a high dollar custom rifle is expected to do better.

Then you want a benchrest gun, yes?

$3000 doesn't even start on the custom gunmaker's circuit. That's not even a down payment for most of these guys.

For REASONABLE money and turnaround, with fantastic accuracy, you could try
www.empirerifles.com


Then again, if you have the rifle action, Charlie Sisk may do a restock and rebarrel for that, but I haven't looked at his prices in along time.

heck, amn, $2500 will barely buy you a custom shop rifle at the big boys, and that's a starting point.

Expect 5 to 9 k for a production/custom gun, like an empire.

Those CZ slickers up in MT are pretty well thought of by all accounts.

To clarify, I'm not looking for a benchrest rifle. The type of rifle I had made and am looking for is a sporter type. The type of rifle you would be able to shoot a long range steel target match, a 1000 yard match and be able to still hunt big game with.

Is there such an animal or am I expecting too much?

Wow .. what caliber and weight would you want that in? Not being sarcastic, honestly ..

I see on the Empire rifle site that their accuracy gaurantee is around 1/2 MOA....1MOA with factory ammo.

That's about what the rifle I have does. I may have inflated expectations.

Are all the stories here on the forums about shooting 5 bullets in one ragged hole crap? I read a lot of them but have never had a rifle that would do it. I assume they are custom guns with perfectly tuned ammo in perfect range conditions.

I would really like to have a custom hunting rifle that will shoot under 1 MOA out to 1000 yards. Is there no such thing?

Caliber and bullet weight? Well the custom chambering I have is .264 win mag. I thought the 6.5 would be a great long range rifle; for hunting and possibly the type of target games I spoke of..........

A friend of mine who was a usmc force recon member recommended rifles by http://www.rwhart.com

How much better than .5 MOA do you need? That is incredible accuracy for any hunting rifle in my books. I would think to get much better you will need to start spending lots of money for marginal gains. I doubt there are many people who can shoot at a level to take advantage of such a tool. If you can then great, however I would expect that $3000 will get you little more that an action and maybe not even that.

Check out the web sight snipershide.com. You should be able to get a real shooter for 3-4k from one of the smiths on that sight and a rifle built for your purpose. GA Precision would be my 1st call for a utility grade real shooter. a rem varmint contour or bigger Rock or Bartlein barrel a Tom Mannors T3 or 4 stock and a custom rem clone action from phoenix, Stiller, Lawton etc. should fit the bill.

Do you want accuracy or do you want custom?
I don't think they are the same thing.
A blue printed Remington 700 and a well fitted high quality barrel might get that sort of accuracy but I really would not want a Remington action on a custom rifle.

Go buy an F Class Rifle off the shelf , then spend some bucks on optics !.

It's an extremely difficult task of insuring a Sporter to do 1K matches !.

Custom gunmakers are artist in their own rights and art work can be costly without guarantees .

You have an Excellent Gunsmith in NM and he posts on this site . Ask Him !. JMO .

Thanks guys. Why wouldn't you want a Remington action?

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Thanks guys. Why wouldn't you want a Remington action?

There is nothing functionally wrong with a Remington for normal use. I have my share of Remington factory hunting rifles and 40X-BRs. For a custom rifle I would want something in which all of the parts were hogouts from barstock or machined from forgings.

Given a choice I would start with a 98/09 Peruvian Mauser with the "Original Mauser" crest or a copy of it.

I would be interested in others opinions, but I have spent a bunch of time and money on this and own rifles from most of the makers above as well as many of the other very well known accuracy guys.

First lets define accuracy. A 1/2 minute rifle is one which will shoot 5 5 shot groups all under 1/2 inch at 100 yards. Lots of rifle makers will show you the one "three shots touching" group that they shot once. Getting that consistecy requires a very good rifle, very very carefully prepared ammunition, windflags and the ability to read them and pretty good bench technique (much harder with a sporter than a dedicated benchrest gun)

Bear in mind that a lot of benchrest groups are shot by experts with dedicated equipment are bigger than that and the averages tend to be around a 1/4 minute. I doubt 1 in 1000 factory rifles are capable of 1/2 MOA if that. If you have one, you should treat it like gold. It is irreplaceable. My experience has been that a dedicated bench gun can shoot consistenctly a 1/4 minute. The very best of the accuracy sporters can shoot 3/4 minute, more traditional custom rifles 1-1 1/4 minute and factory rifles 1 to 1 3/4 MOA. (Leaving aside things the the Remington 40X)

The other practical reality is that a hunting gun is often shot from many positions and the point of impact chagne from shooting prone off a bipod versus off stick versus anay other rough position versus a bench can be more than 1 MOA rendering small differences in intrinsic accuracy moot.

What Bradhe said.
Regards, Joe

I will tell you why you do not want a Remington. You cannot make it as good as a custom for the same money. Trust me, I just did it on a Remington after advising everybody not to do it. If you don't want a BR rifle, you will not get a rifle built that will ave. .500 5 shot groups.
People talk about 1 ragged hole and all shots covered by a dime, well maybe every once in a while. The wind can't be blowing, no mirage, and the perfect load will allow it sometimes with other than a BR rifle.
Butch

quote:

First lets define accuracy. A 1/2 minute rifle is one which will shoot 5 5 shot groups all under 1/2 inch at 100 yards. Lots of rifle makers will show you the one "three shots touching" group that they shot once. Getting that consistecy requires a very good rifle, very very carefully prepared ammunition, windflags and the ability to read them and pretty good bench technique (much harder with a sporter than a dedicated benchrest gun)

Bear in mind that a lot of benchrest groups are shot by experts with dedicated equipment are bigger than that and the averages tend to be around a 1/4 minute. I doubt 1 in 1000 factory rifles are capable of 1/2 MOA if that. If you have one, you should treat it like gold. It is irreplaceable. My experience has been that a dedicated bench gun can shoot consistenctly a 1/4 minute. The very best of the accuracy sporters can shoot 3/4 minute, more traditional custom rifles 1-1 1/4 minute and factory rifles 1 to 1 3/4 MOA. (Leaving aside things the the Remington 40X)

Good post~!

Here's a true Remington 700, 1/2 minute sporter in 300 Win Mag. It's as fancy as I get!

That a mini computer mounted on the scope?

rcamuglia - you are not a good enough shot to hit an animal at a sensible distance with a gun that shoots a half inch?
What then do you require?

"A hunting gun that is 1 moa out to 1000 yards"
Why? Are you that good of a shot? Me think not.

After all in a world where a 1/2" gun seems inadequate (from your first disgruntled post) those there animals you are shooting at must have some damn small kill zones, or you might want to think about getting closer.

WTF?

Further, if you've a gun that you can take out of the safe, closet...where ever and it will go shoot three (or five is all the better) shots into a group of 1 1/2" at 100 yards, you have a keeper.
Hell, anything under two inches from a cold barrel is fine with me.

Given the budget and your overall specifications.

I would buy a Remington 700 PSS in 308 Win.

I would then do then send it to one of the many accuracy smith's that specialize in remington 700s and I would have them do the following.

Rechamber it to 300 WSM (will give you good long range reach)

Cut the barrel to 24in to take a little weight off and make it a little more field friendly.

Drill and tap to 8x40 rings and use leupold dual dovetails

Put in a hogue overmolded full bedding block stock (these are inexpensive lightweight and stable)

Put a good 3.5x10 leupold, nightforce, millet, zeiss scope on in it

Have the trigger taken down to 2 lbs.

You should be able to do that for well under $3k.

You will have a gun that is light enough to take in the field, can reasonable shoot steel out to 750 yards (to go beyond that without holdover, I think you would have to put one of thos tapered bases on)

This guy has a pretty good rep for accuracy

http://www.norcalprecision.com/aboutus.html

Guy Malmborg (westpac) can also do this kind work.

Hello,
Interesting proposition looking for a rifle that will serve two purposes, sporting rifle and long range match grade rifle. Have shot Long Range, prone/sling, for quite some years and combining the two in one rifle, something will have to be compromised. Weight, style of stock, length of barrel, caliber, sighting system, etc. As for caliber, I would think the 6.5/284 would work well for both other than game that can bite back, for it is the "darling" of long range shooters these days. Superb cartridge in the accuracy department w/ 140grain weight range bullets.(if you shoot the typical long range matches w/ some 60 plus rounds and sighers in a match, the caliber has a healthy appetite for barrels!)
I would not concern myself with insisting on a repeater or magazine rifle if it is to be used for long range hunting/targets and there are numerous quality actions used by the BR shooters that work well. However, those actions alone will be above the 1K level plus and by the time you install a quality barrel,(I have always had good luck w/Krieger,) Jewell trigger, McMillan glass stock/bedded,(perhaps their varmint style,) sights/mounts, you will be in the 3K range. I would suggest a barrel length of no less than 26" and would prefer even 28", but that may be unhandy for sporting purposes.
Nesika Bay, Stolle Panda, RPA(believe they are no longer imported by Otto Weber??,) and if you feel you need a magazine version, they are available from these sources as well. As you have probably realized, my suggestions lean toward a prone match style rifle, not bench style, with some ability to serve as a sporting rifle. One other suggestion would be to contact Al Warner Rifles(do a search for him) and have a discussion with him about it for he can build just about anything you would want for accurate rifles. As for accuracy requirements, a minute gun will work fine for sporting use and remember the X ring @ 1000yds is in the area of 10" or one minute and the 10 ring some twice that size. It isn't the gun that puts them into the other circles as much as the trigger puller and not doping the wind/conditons. I have observed more than a few box/stock Rem. Model 700 Varmint rifles in the lowly 308 w/ only bedding work done deliver most of the 20 record shots in the X ring at 1000yds from prone/sling position;however, the trigger puller was quite good. Did not mean to ramble on, but your quest for that "golden fleece" rifle is a tough one and again, Warner would tell you straight up about the possibilites. Good luck.

martin

Why don't you gve Kevin Weaver a call at

http://www.weaverrifles.com/

Kevin builds both hunting rifles and 1000 yard rifles, he would be the man to talk to.

Another route might be to look into a Blaser R93 or a Sauer 202. I have not shot an R93 but many think it is the most accurate factory rifle made. I have 2 Sauer 202s and they are wonderfully accurate rifles.

For those of us who like accurate hunting rifles this is a very informative set of posts. So much valuable knowledge gathered in one place. Thanks guys.

Von Gruff.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Are all the stories here on the forums about shooting 5 bullets in one ragged hole crap?

Pretty much.

Yes, very good posts and very informative on what can be done.

I could do without Gun toter's post. I guess there' always one of those around. You ought to be damn sure of who you are talking to before you say crap like that.

Beautiful rifle Westpac! That looks like the sporting match rifles for steel that I've seen.

I guess from the input here, the style rifle I'm looking for would be tough to get to shoot better than 1/2 MOA. Great info bradhe!

Maybe I've been lucky with my factory guns. I've spent time tailoring loads for them and they do alright. Seeing what they could do made me believe a custom rifle should do better. If they don't, why would anyone spend the money for one? Good info on the "one ragged hole" groups too. I thought they might be too good to be true, but I see posts on these forums all the time with folks bragging about them (pictures and all) and figured the custom gun would be the answer. I want a gun that will do that! Is that so bad??!!

It seems that the rifles I own that are factory made may not be considered 1/2 MOA rifles. I've never tried to shoot 5 consecutive 5 shot groups that would measure 1/2 MOA. I know consistency would be the definition. During load development they have grouped 1/2 MOA and I obviously chose that as my load.

I know damn well they don't group well at yardages over 300. I'm sure this could be cured with load development at the yardage in question ie. a load that shoots well at 300 may not at 1000. Also the conditions play havoc with groups especially at my range. There's always wind.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I know damn well they don't group well at yardages over 300. I'm sure this could be cured with load development at the yardage in question ie. a load that shoots well at 300 may not at 1000.

Think more along the lines of skill development.

The way I see it, you've got two choices. You could buy parts and have a smith assemble a decent rifle for you (Rem 700 action blueprinted, Timney trigger, free-floating Shilen barrel, match-grade reamer, pillar bedded into a proper composite stock, good scope and mounts), or you can buy an accurate off-the-shelf rifle (Sako 85, Weatherby Accumark, Remington AWR/Sendero to name a few) and tune it a bit more to deliver the exact level of performance you want (or you might get lucky straight away - I once saw an off-the-shelf basic M700 SPS in .300 RUM pound a 6" plate 20 times in a row at 600 yards).

Do you have a specific weight or caliber in mind? Stock type, barrel type/length? Any particularly favorite actions or safeties or anything?

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I recently have become disillusioned with the folks who made the only custom gun I own. The rifle doesn't really shoot any more accurately than any of the factory guns I have. Can you recommend a custom rifle maker that makes accurate rifles and guarantees some sort of accuracy?

Also, for around 3000 dollars, what kind of accuracy should be expected? I mean, I have factory guns that shoot 1/2" groups at 100. I would hope that a high dollar custom rifle is expected to do better.

Allow me to beat the dead horse a bit more ...

RC - I'd approach your project like this...

1) Find someone who owns a rifle that will consistantly shoot 1/2 MOA at 1000 yards. You probably won't find that guy or the rifle cause they are mostly fiction. BUT - assuming you do, spend a day with that guy and his rifle at the range and take a serious look at what it really takes to achieve that kind of precision. When you get a clear picture of the whole equation you'll probably decide on a change of hobbies.

2) Assuming you want to move forward after step one, you need to decide whether you have what it takes to shoot at that level with a man portable system.

3) If you're still on the go then you need to get a reality check on the costs involved. You will likely find that the complete rifle is firstly - not even remotely field portable other than to wheel it to and from your car. Secondly, that rifle with nothing else needed to make it work will REALISTICALLY cost you $5000 to $7500 then figure about another $3000 to $5000 for proper glass, another $1000 for misc. bits & parts needed at the range, $2000 for a real spotting scope and tripod, $1500 for a laptop and another few hundred for some software, $2000 for reloading gear, and then you'll need a shit load of time to get everything set-up before you even pull the trigger.

My advice - take your $3000 and buy a nice big bore with iron sights, head out to the 100 yard range and enjoy yourself...

quote:

Maybe I've been lucky with my factory guns. I've spent time tailoring loads for them and they do alright. Seeing what they could do made me believe a custom rifle should do better. If they don't, why would anyone spend the money for one?

Lots of reasons to spend the money, to have something made just for you. Great wood, weight and balance you like, classic style, unique metal work, engraving you like, etc... What they do better is fit you and your taste.

One thing that has not been mentioned is that you talk about a hunting gun with the .5 MOA or less. As far as I know, this can only happen from a bench. There are a great number of guns that you can get to shoot well from a bench. A custom hunting gun fitted to you will come to your shoulder and with practice, be on target consistently, without all of the gyrations you might go through to get your factory gun to get on target. Most people can adjust to an ill fitted gun but a custom will not force you to do with a gun that doesn't fit correctly.

Will you get better accuracy from a custom? Well it all depends on what you are comparing it to. A trim stock with truly beautiful wood is not as stable as a heavy bench stock or some of the ugly black jobs that are glass bedded. Beauty and the Beast. Accuracy is not the end all for most of us. If it is your main goal then you most likely won't be with the beauty.

quote:

Originally posted by GSP7:
That a mini computer mounted on the scope?

That's the screen for the DVD player.

quote:

Originally posted by GSP7:
That a mini computer mounted on the scope?

Yes, this:

https://www.barrettrifles.com/...x50mm-66000-7ws.aspx

Please read this post just at face value, as I am only trying to help you understand a little bit with what you are asking. For one thing, I seriously doubt you have any true ½ MOA rifles. I think you are 100% sincere, just maybe not quite up to speed with what that really means. Do not feel bad, as this comes about from misunderstandings and unreasonable expectations based on the wild claims you mention on internet boards.

The 5, 5 shot group is the actual test to determine what accuracy rifle you really do have. You need to shoot your rifles like this to determine what they are actually capable of doing. This includes EVERY shot fired into the groups-not a single “called flyer” or any of that BS is allowed. Period.

To shoot at that level requires good equipment, and the rifle is only a piece of the puzzle, and is not even the majority of the puzzle. First of all, please tell us about what are your reloading procedures and how accurately produced are your measured reloads, how many wind flags are you using and where are they, how well can you read mirage and how are you currently set up to read it, what types of front and rear rests are you using, what is your bench like, and most importantly, how much experience do you personally have shooting 5, 5 shot groups that average under ½”? Fill us in on all of this in your next post and maybe you can get some pointers that will help you more than any rifle can.

You cannot buy this type of shooting, so for right now forget a new rifle and focus on learning the basics. A new rifle will only leave you poorer and more frustrated than you are right now. This is THE Most common misconception about accuracy-that it just requires buying the proper rifle. Your ability to accurately read the wind flags you are now using (you ARE using several, right?) has a hell of a lot more to do with actually shooting small groups than spending another $10k on a rifle.

If you are serious about getting better, then find the closest benchrest matches to you and start shooting. Learn to read the conditions, good bench technique, and how make good ammo. Talk to true benchrest shooters about ½ MOA factory rifles and factory rifles that “shoot in 3’s all day long” and listen to what they tell you. You will understand why most BR shooters stopped trying to help hunters on internet forums about 10 years ago-the hunters get mad when they do not hear what they want to hear. This is partially not their fault, as it got started with BS in hunting magazines (from gun writers, 90% of whom do not know what they are talking about 90% of the time) and grew exponentially when people got access to the net and wanted to brag about their rifles. The old “my dad can beat up your day” from second grade is now “my factory rifle shoots as good as your BR rifle” in today’s internet forums.

As far as holding small groups way out there, just look at what the 1000 yard competition shooters are doing. They are now shooting 10 groups at 1000 yards that are smaller than 3 shot 100 yard groups I see from some factory rifles. BUT THEY SURE ARE NOT DOING IT BECAUSE OF A RIFLE THEY BOUGHT!!! They are able to do it because they are the complete package, which includes reading mirage, wind, reloading technique, bench technique, rests, scope, and rifle.

Good luck!

As I read and try to understand what he's looking for, it looks like he's equating $3000 to accuracy alone?
Out of the 7 Rem 722's I have, six will put three shots at 100 yards into 1/2" groups, or less for four of them.

Getting consistent 1/2 inch groups is like everyone is telling you a lot of work and money.

Getting between half and 3/4 minute from most of your groups and keeping close to the 1/2 minute standard with near perfect conditions is not quite so tough.

Were it me, I would start with a known decent cartridge like a 300 WM or .308 win. in a known decent rifle like a 700 Sendero. I would add the best glass I could get with a minimum of something like the 6.5-20x50 Zeiss Conquest. Judicious purchasing will get you them for ~$1800.00. I'd put in a nice trigger tune it down to 1.5-2lbs and then work up my loads until I knew what I had.

At that point, you will be around $2000 into the gun and glass and should be consistently under one minute. Now is when you really begin load development! If you can get the loads down to regularly shooting 1/2 minute or less, say 50% of the time, now you have a rifle worth putting a little more into. For another thousand dollars give or take you can squeeze a little more out of it. If you need better than that and it absolutely cannot be less then I would be prepared to spend three times the money and go into it with the understanding that it might well be a work in progress for a long time to come.

You might be able to get there with a .264 but you have a lot better chance with a .308 caliber gun because you have a better selection of components and more peer experience to draw on.

Oh! And one more thing... that gun you just turned into a consistent 1/2 minute gun, you will burn up 20-30 per cent of your barrel life just getting it to where it needs to be.

quote:

Seeing what they could do made me believe a custom rifle should do better. If they don't, why would anyone spend the money for one?

Ah, better.


Let's have a closer look at "better". A jet car can run the 1/4 mile a lot fast then a BMW M5 so it is better right? Well it is better at that ONE THING and a whole lot WORSE at everything else!

It is about the WHOLE package, balance, beauty, accuracy, reliability, finish work, recoil management, durability etc etc etc.

To me a beautiful rifle that you can pick up off the bench and shoot 6" targets with offhand at a 100 yards is far a far more valuable and useful rifle then some 20 pound bench rest rifle

Fantastic posts all!

Wow, where should I start? Well first of all the custom gun in question had a bad barrel. After about 400 rounds of load development, YES, THAT'S A TON, I realized while cleaning it it had a rough spot that you could feel while pushing patches through it. I took it to a local gunsmith and we looked at it with his borescope. In his estimation the barrel was bad. It has a 4" area he calls "nasty". My 'smith is warranteeing the barrel and it's being replaced right now. By all accounts here, it's a fine rifle but just bad luck on the barrel.

The gun would take about 7 shots from clean to start grouping, group for about 5 shots, then go back to hell. At 300 yards, the best groups were fantastic (1"). A complete cleaning down to bare metal was almost endless with Wipe out, probably 6 applications and overnite.....

My factory guns that shoot well are both A-Bolts. I've worked with the loads and have achieved the accuracy I've said. I will do the 5-5 shot groups test this weekend cuz I'm dying to see just how good they are. They have Leupold scopes. Both are 6-18 power VX-II with the LRVD. I realize there are much better scopes. I hunt with these rifles and they do suprisingly well. I killed a coyote at 930 yards with the .243 wssm. I've used the same rifle at a Sporting Rifle Match (My first rifle match shooting steel) and was amazed that the scope could dial elevation on 60 targets and return to "0" very well. I shoot off of a bi-pod and use a bag for the rear rest (you will say that the bi-pod is bad for accuracy). I've replaced both Timney triggers with lighter springs to give me about a 2.5# pull weight.

As for wind flags, on our 1000 yard range they are at each 100 yard delineation. I'm sure I can improve significantly reading the wind. I also have a little wind meter.

As for my loading technique, I believe it is far beyond what the average guy does. I carefully prepare my brass. I resize, de-burr flash holes, champfer case mouths, outside neck turn (even though I have factory guns).

I think my load development is fine. I've always been able to find a load that is more than acceptable even for some of the posters here.

As for my shooting experience, I've been doing some kind of shooting always for the last 35 years. I'm 45 years old. In my 20's, I was addicted to prarie dog shooting. We sometimes shot 600 rounds of 22-250 per day up to 4 days a week! I've got some rifle experience under my belt! Since then I've been a competitive shotgun shooter around the country and have been lucky enough to represent my country 3 times in International competition in various spots in the world.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not bragging, just trying to give you all answers to your questions so that you can see I'm not some Goober here. Your posts and suggestions are great and I take them seriously to heart. I'm not a competitive rifle shooter, but I think I can squeeze a trigger pretty competently.

Macifej has a great idea about finding a guy with a true .5 MOA gun and I will look around.

Trez, I'm not the type of guy who cares what the gun looks like. Form follows function for me. I want accuracy and that's why I thought custom was the way to go. To me a gun is a tool. I don't have the $ for beauty as well. I'm pretty practical.

Marc_Stokeld!! There's no way I'm going to believe that the 1000 yard shooters you are talking about shooting those tight groups do it IN SPITE OF THE RIFLE THEY BOUGHT! To shoot those types of groups it does take the whole package but they have to have an exceptional rifle first that is capable of the task. Am I wrong or can they shoot an inch group at 1000 with my factory guns? If they could, they'd be shooting a factory gun.