quote:

Originally posted by scr83jp:
A friend of mine who was a usmc force recon member recommended rifles by http://www.rwhart.com

Bobby Hart is the recognized expert in long range riflebuilding and shooting in my neck of the woods. If you can't learn a thing or two from talking to him, then there's something else wrong. 570-752-3655

Thanks onefunzr2. I've been to his site and I'll check him out.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

Marc_Stokeld!! There's no way I'm going to believe that the 1000 yard shooters you are talking about shooting those tight groups do it IN SPITE OF THE RIFLE THEY BOUGHT! To shoot those types of groups it does take the whole package but they have to have an exceptional rifle first that is capable of the task. Am I wrong or can they shoot an inch group at 1000 with my factory guns? If they could, they'd be shooting a factory gun.

Sorry if I was not clear. I can see how what I wrote is easy to read differently than I was thinking as I was hunting and pecking with my 2 fingers.

What i am saying is that I have recently bought factory rifles that would group 3 shot 100 yard good handloads into literally larger groups than some guys are shooting at 1k with their dedicated 1k rifles. Yes, they DEFINITELY needed their highly tuned rifle to shoot the groups.

What I was trying to get across was that buying their rifle was a part of the pie, and less than 50% of it at that. Add the rests, ammo, and shooter ability to the rifle and you get the 100% of the pie needed to shoot those groups that just blow my mind.

There is no way to shoot the groups just by purchasing is the rifle is what I was trying to say.

Sorry for the confusion!

Sounds like you have the other parts of the puzzle far greater than most shooters, likely myself included! A bad barrel will mess you up every time, so hopefully the rifle will shoot better hwen you get a new tube on it.

quote:

There is no way to shoot the groups just by purchasing is the rifle is what I was trying to say.

That sums up oh so many accuracy quests.

Thanks Marc

I appreciate the time you took to reply and the information you shared is valuable to me. I'm sure I'll be more than happy when my rifle is back home.

The reason for my starting this thread is that I've talked with others who have had rifles built by the Co. in question and they were unhappy and stayed unhappy. I think my rifle's problem will be resolved. I just picked this Co. for reasons we don't need to get into here.

I guess this is just research for the next gun I have built and you all have provided me with some great options by referring Co.'s that you have had experience with and I thank all of you. I should have asked you first!

I take no offense from your comments. Fair enough on the form follows function comments. As a shot gunner, you know what I mean about a stock fitting you correctly. Practical is great. We just seem to have slightly different definitions of custom.

Along your line of thinking however, you are still going to want a customized gun. Off the shelf factory will most likely not do it for you either. The BR shooters are going to be the ones who know how to get that last 1/32-1/16" out of a group. The guys above have listed several to look towards, and I'm glad they did because I wouldn't have known where to send ya.

The guns we "GOOD custom gunmakers" build embody form and function. Functional art is what my dad calls it. We may not be in the BR "function" category but for what we are trying to achieve most of us do it extremely well......and with style. I'm sorry to hear about your barrel woes and glad to hear it has worked out for you.

I just went back and looked at your original post and read the first line differently this time. "have become disillusioned with the folks who made the only custom gun I own". I guess I read it "disillusioned with custom guns" My mistake. Disregard most of what I've stated as far as defending custom gun makers, as you were refering to only one guy.

Did all this happen since yesterday when you posted this? If not, in all fairness to the "custom" guy who built this rifle, you might have mentioned that the issue was a barrel. That is something he should have noticed but that he most likely had no control over unless he made the barrel also.

Thanks Trez.

No this has been on-going with the rifle. I didn't start the thread to beat him up. I started it to find out who all "you guys in the know" consider to be great rifle makers so that my next rifle will be built by someone who I've done some research on.

The unhappy folks who have had rifles built by this outfit, I found out about later after they knew of my issues with them. I don't think I'll be unhappy when they are done. It's a great outfit that does more than just build rifles. They are VERY REPUTABLE and have treated me wonderfully over the years. I just think that they might not be as good at building rifles as the other things they do.

Do you have a site showing some of your work? It sounds like you know what I may be looking for.

Trez,

Just checked out your "stock" link. My God, that's a beautiful piece of wood! Way out of my "utilitarian" league.

Believe me, I can appreciate beutiful work like that, I just don't "need" it. Like I say, a gun is a tool to me and I want it to work as good as one can. You see, I'll actually use the rifle. It just won't sit in a display case. It will get scratched, bloodied, dropped etc. I stopped worrying about the dings and nicks I put on my rifles and shotguns years ago when I realized it was going to happen no matter what if they got normal use.................

I don't have a site up yet and specialize in the stock building aspect of the build although I usually coordinate the whole project.

I will say however that if function and BR accuracy is your main goal that the $10,000 and up hunting guns that I work on are most likely not what you are looking for. You can click on the link in my signiture below and see one of the stocks I have recently built.

If consistently under 1/2 MOA hunting guns are what you are looking for, I would also decline as I would be concerned that after all my work was done that you would be expecting more than can reasonably be expected. This is not meant to be harsh, just to say that I think you are asking a lot.

I have no control over your shooting, reloading, and the conditions in which you shoot so I would not give such a guarantee. It isn't to say that the gun couldn't do it, just that I wouldn't guarantee it to do so.

I guess we were both working on a reply at the same time... Most of my clients use their guns and I encourage it, as that is why they are made. Most anything you can do to a gun can be fixed, or a replacement made. Enjoy them.

If a gun like this is your life savings or an extreame expense, then I can see where you shouldn't go there. I don't own many of my own custom guns for this financial reason. I can not afford a safe full, but I sure enjoy getting to work on such fine guns, I can tell you that, and the ones I do own, get used.

Understood and thanks for the honesty.

I realize that a ton of factors are out of the control of the builder as soon as it leaves the shop. My guy guarantees under 1 MOA with any factory ammo and I think this is reasonable and a handloader should be able to dial it in from there.

From what I've read about custom guns and their performance expectations, 1/2 MOA is not unreasonable. If I can find the site, I'll post it here. The article was called "Bugholes from a bipod" and the guy says that anything worse than that was totally unacceptable to him for a custom.

I went to the bugholes site but I couldn't find the quote. It must have been another site that I was on that told me about the bughole site.

It seems to me that the word "accuracy" should be replaced with the word "repeatability". Because isn't that what it really is all about? Repeating the same performance each and every time the gun goes off. And since only the gun itself can be the same each time (or as close to the same as possible), and all of the other factors not be the same, I don't know how any amount of money can guarentee repeatability.

I wonder: if a person took a regular factory winchester or remington, bolted it down tight so it could not move regardless of recoil, in a 100 yard long building with no weather factors,counted each grain of powder, used only bullets that weighed the exact same, in cases that weighed the exact same, and were trimmed the exact same, if you couldn't do almost as well as spending a lot of money on a custom benchrest rig. Anybody ever tried it?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I wonder: if a person took a regular factory winchester or remington, bolted it down tight so it could not move regardless of recoil, in a 100 yard long building with no weather factors,counted each grain of powder, used only bullets that weighed the exact same, in cases that weighed the exact same, and were trimmed the exact same, if you couldn't do almost as well as spending a lot of money on a custom benchrest rig. Anybody ever tried it?

You should probably stick to lawyering.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by scr83jp:
A friend of mine who was a usmc force recon member recommended rifles by http://www.rwhart.com

Bobby Hart is the recognized expert in long range riflebuilding and shooting in my neck of the woods. If you can't learn a thing or two from talking to him, then there's something else wrong. 570-752-3655

Do not waste you time with RW Hart--they are crooks! Will not go into finite detail but they ripped me off BUT the manufacture made it right and sent me the parts at no cost and I sent them the counterfeit ones! They sold me parts that were made by them for someone else’s equipment and lied about it!! They did not know that I had prior knowledge from the manufacturer about the product.

Needless to say they do not sell that particular item any more Caveat Emptor with Hart!!!

Wow

quote:

You should probably stick to lawyering.

Westpac

What does my profession have to do with it? I was asking a question. Would you post the same reply to someone else who was a computer programmer, a financial analyst, a truck driver, or a physician? Would you have said the same thing to Don Allen or Al Lind as they were airline pilots before doing gunwork?

You are trying to ridicule me by attempting to use the same sort of failed logic that others here on AR attempt to use quite often. Its called Argumentum ad hominum. Its an attempt to shift the discussion from the point being discussed to the personality of the other party or opponent. Instead of answering the question posed, the person will instead attack another's profession, their reputation, their social position, their educational status, or some other personal attribute. Most intelligent people pick up on it right away and see it for what it is.

Maybe you should stick to gunsmithing!

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I wonder: if a person took a regular factory winchester or remington, bolted it down tight so it could not move regardless of recoil, in a 100 yard long building with no weather factors,counted each grain of powder, used only bullets that weighed the exact same, in cases that weighed the exact same, and were trimmed the exact same, if you couldn't do almost as well as spending a lot of money on a custom benchrest rig. Anybody ever tried it?

It's done every day in the underground tunnel of Hornady Mfg.

It's how they test their bullets before production.

It's still not perfect but an attempt at it anyway.

Vapodog

Do they use factory rifles? Do they ever comment on the accuracy of those rifles?

I think it's a great question 22WRF

I think that a custom gun is supposed to shoot much more accurately than a factory model, and I've read this in other areas.

If no custom gunmaker can guarantee this, I don't see a reason to buy a custom gun. I can make factory guns shoot less than 1MOA just with loading properly. Why would someone even want to be a custom gunmaker if they weren't going to make rifles that are more accurate than a factory gun? I would think that the satisfaction would come from attaining great accuracy in your work. Beauty has it's place but is useless to put 5 bullets in the same hole

quote:

Do they use factory rifles? Do they ever comment on the accuracy of those rifles?

only rarely as they shoot steady 16 hours a day and replace barrel in their own toolroom regularly.

Actions are many and varied....even '98 Mausers at times......conditions however are spotless.

Accuracy is an obsession as it needs to be.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

You should probably stick to lawyering.

Westpac

What does my profession have to do with it? I was asking a question. Would you post the same reply to someone else who was a computer programmer, a financial analyst, a truck driver, or a physician?

You are trying to ridicule me by attempting to use the same sort of failed logic that others here on AR attempt to use quite often. Its called Argumentum ad hominum. Its an attempt to shift the discussion from the point being discussed to the personality of the other party or opponent. Instead of answering the question posed, the person will instead attack another's profession, their reputation, their social position, their educational status, or some other personal attribute. Most intelligent people pick up on it right away and see it for what it is.

Maybe you should stick to gunsmithing!

Telling you to stick to being a lawyer... Yeah, I can see how you were offended. Please accept my apology, I didn't mean to offend you.

quote:

quote:
Do they use factory rifles? Do they ever comment on the accuracy of those rifles?

only rarely as they shoot steady 16 hours a day and replace barrel in their own toolroom regularly.

Actions are many and varied....even '98 Mausers at times......conditions however are spotless.

Accuracy is an obsession as it needs to be.

Sierra is pretty much the same way. Some are test barrels, some are factory and only sometimes do they comment on accuracy.

to the thread:
The number of sporting weight hunting rifles that actually shoot 1/2" groups with regularity are incredibly few.....more half inch groups are fired on the internet than have ever been fired on any range.....

If one wants such accuracy he needs to be searching out a "smith" that specializes in benchrest rifles (there may be some here on AR) as I seriously doubt that any "smith" will make a sporting weight hunting rifle (for $3,000) and guarantee 1/2" accuracy.....and as above it's defined as grouping center to center five consecutive five shot groups!

I've only owned one rifle in my life that comes close to that and it had a #5 contour shilen barrel.....and was chambered to 22-250......and that really don't make the grade as a hunting rifle!

IMO the accuracy request is unreasonable.

Thanks vapodog!

That's the kind of to the point answer I was looking for!

Buy a Tikka T3 Lite run some Tubb's Bore Polishing Bullets down the Tube put Talley Mounts on it and a AV Swaro on it ...
AK

I think Sierra is pretty open about their shooting results. Just call one of their techs and ask.

As far as bolting down a production barreled action and expecting near rail gun results I don't think this would happen. Factory barrels vary dimensionally and in surface texture along the length of the bore. The finest custom barrels start out with a better finish and are then lapped. The result is more uniformity in dimensions and finish from one end to another. A custom barrel installed by a crack gunsmith will have a better chamber than production barrels. The chamber will normally be some what tighter, straighter and more concentric to the bore. The action may be squared and blue printed. The production action maybe out of square,have only one lug bearing and the receiver maybe crooked from heat treat.

By the way vapodog, the truth depresses me.

Here is a custom gunmaker I found with a Google search that GUARANTEES 1/2 MOA ACCURACY from a cold barrel at 100 yards

It seems some gun makers will guarantee the accuracy I'm looking for

Ok, I found the web page That defines the accuracy I first talked about when I referenced "bugholes from a bipod".

vapodog, it looks to me like 1/2 MOA for a custom rifle is not out of the realm of reality.

R,
There is a shooter in your city named Ed Adams. He works for the Mayor and used to be the city engineer. Ed is one of the better BR shooters in the USA. You may look Ed up. Go to www.benchrest.com and go to both the gunsmithing forum and the 1000 yard forum.
Butch

quote:

To clarify, I'm not looking for a benchrest rifle. The type of rifle I had made and am looking for is a sporter type. The type of rifle you would be able to shoot a long range steel target match, a 1000 yard match and be able to still hunt big game with.

Is there such an animal or am I expecting too much?

Nesika Bay "Hunter" action...

http://www.nesika.com/Merchant..._Code=Hunter-Actions

quote:

vapodog, it looks to me like 1/2 MOA for a custom rifle is not out of the realm of reality.

Mine shoots that with a SAAMI 300WSM chamber. I use garden-variety Winchester brass and common RCBS dies. Action is a long Montana and barrel is a fat Krieger...

rcamuglia you misunderstood my response. My first sentence was not a statement..it was a question. there are too many people that expect the ridiculous out of guns. when you said a "custom gun" it implies (to me) that we are speaking of a fine rifle with nice wood and such, not a varmint rig or something else, which aside from a caliber a little larger is what you are wanting.

your best bet...is to not build a rifle. instead go buy a used gun in a caliber you can live with from a benchrest or long range shooter...aka someone that competes. a gun that is not what he wanted out of accuracy and something you can live with. you will know going into the purchase what the gun can do and what the loads are.
you will have no reason for being disappointed again.

Thanks Gun toter. Good Idea

homebrewer......I had a feeling that the accuracy could be had. I had to do the Google search to find those guys that guarantee it. Thanks for your advice and recommendation.

Same to you butchlambert! Much thanks!

Custom Rifles are not a Guaranteed .5 .25 accuracy .

Custom Rifles is an extremely Broad term . As I'm no gunsmith I shall refrain from elaborating

on that subject . As all Gunsmiths are different so are Custom Rifles . Opinions range from A-Z

on Actions truing actions which barrel is best twist rate on and on .

I have #2 rifles which are capable of .5 MOA one fouler 5 shots X 3 groups for 15 rounds counted .

One is a Black Rifle with hard chromed bore and that's just not supposed to happen .

So they tell me !. The other is a Custom Built Bolt Rifle made on a commercial Mauser LH action

with a Lilja Barrel it is the most accurate Rifle I have ever owned .

Both of these still required me to build custom ammo for top notch performance .

.223 Black Hills by far is the Best factory ammo in my set up .

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Ok, I found the web page That defines the accuracy I first talked about when I referenced "bugholes from a bipod".

vapodog, it looks to me like 1/2 MOA for a custom rifle is not out of the realm of reality.

My apologies....I don't know where I got the idea you wanted a sporting weight hunting rifle.

Please do us all a favor after you get the rifle....post some photos of the rifle and the groups you shoot.

Maybe I'll get one too!

if i may defend mark stokeld's post....
it's not done in spite of the rifle they have. it's just that the rifle is really only the small part of the equation. it's the one and only constatnt in the equation as well. it is a machine that does the exact same thing every time and the only part of the equation that does the same thing every time. as such, when built correctly,( and that's where the big bucks lie) ten of them will do the same thing everytime so it doesn't matter which one you have. every other element of the equation is a variable that usually detracts from accuracy...and the biggest variable is the shooter. i've spent a lifetime competing in a sport that is 99% mind and 1% equipment, target archery, i can gauranty you, there is not a modern,well made bow in exhistance that won't out-shoot the shooter.... the accuracy lies between your ears. guns are much the same.

vapodog,

Obviously your post is sarcastic. You don't believe that 1/2 MOA is possible from a custom gun even after I've sighted the firms that guarantee it? And those were just the first 4 that I clicked on from the order of the Google search.

After I found those folks who guarantee the accuracy, others here on the forum posted (homebrewer to be exact) that they too have a custom gun that fits the bill. Have you never heard of this?

Hey, If I can make an off the assembly line rifle (and not just 1) shoot under 1 MOA, then why is it so unheard of that a guy who knows what he is doing building rifles can do much better?