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Merlinron, I too compete in a sport where the equipment doesn't matter as much as the competitor. I can whip most guys in the shotgun sports with a JC Whitney pump gun that fits and they can use whatever gun their bank account can afford. In the rifle game I believe there is a difference. When you are talking about accuracy with a rifle, sure, the shooter matters. But the equipment is about on the same level of importance. I shoot an 800$ autoloader that is basically right off the rack and I have won National titles with it. Do you know of any rifle shooters that have done the same with a stock off the rack rifle in a rifle sport? If so, I would like to know and would gladly accept the knowledge as a lesson learned. I would then do my damndest to improve my skills with the rifles I own. I think that the webpage I cited was correct in that there is not a rifle that can be too accurate. A shooter can always improve and adapt to an accurate rifle, but a good shooter can only shoot a bad rifle so well................... | |||
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I am curious what shotgun sport you compete in. Edit- I found it, sporting clays and you were not blowing smoke about your shooting. BTW, as I am sure you are aware, you need to take all the sub moa internet groups you hear about on here with a grain, or a large handfull of salt. We have one notable guy from Idaho who's guns always shoot well under 1 moa and all bullets of any weight all shoot to the same point of aim. Good luck on your search. I think that kind of accuracy is a waste of effort on a hunting rifle but that does not diminish your desire to get what you want. | |||
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Probably BPCR silhouette. The Browning rifles are very good and the sport is physically demanding on the shooter. It is also demanding on the quality of ammunition used. I am not a very good skeet shooter never breaking more than about 35 straight or maybe 90/100 in informal shooting. But it was always fun to keep up with many guys that had a shotgun that cost more than my car. My 4 shotguns back then cost a total of about $800. | |||
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Hello rcamaglia, Yes, G. David Tubbs, Mitchell Maxberry, are two examples of those shooting stock rifles that have won significant money/title matches w/ basic equipment i.e., Rem. 700's, Win Mod. 70 PF's-cal.308. Mr. Tubbs was national champion of the silouhette game and Mr. Maxberry has won many titles w/ very basic equipment. Both of these fellows have been National Champions at Perry. Have shot with both of them at Perry and Oak Ridge and their skills are a rare example of where the shooter's ability is equal or greater than the rifle they are shooting. Very few can make that claim. Keep in mind that the type of shooting involved here is not from a bag, rest, supported, but rather w/ sling in standing, sitting, prone, both rapid fire and slow fire and at ranges from 200 to 1000 yards. Sighting equipment is genrally micrometer peep sights, but optics can be used in those matches designated as "any sights." Granted these two examples are certainly not the norm, and Mr. Tubbs normally uses rifles of his own design and is superb equipment, Mr. Maxberry's rifle looks like something you and I "glued together" in our garage the night before the match, but it and he can definitely shoot! You asked if there were shooters able to produce fine accuracy w/ "issue" rifles and those above are just two, there are others out there w/ similar skills. | |||
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Some people are just gifted, or should I say work harder. A friend of mine from West Texas, Britt Robinson, has won a few All Americans in Trap or is it called Grand American. He decided to take up BR shooting and is one of the best that I have seen. He just doesn't make many matches. He bought a rifle and 3,000 bullets from Cecil Tucker. He shot those in 3 weeks and went back for a fresh barrel and more bullets. Guys like Britt don't get good shooting with their keyboards. Well, maybe that is my problem. Butch | |||
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Great info MFD. Thanks Customstox. I'm just on the quest for that "5 shot ragged hole". In a hunting rifle, I'm sure you're correct that it is not needed and maybe there is no such thing. I've gotten along fine to this point without it! Maybe I am wasting my time, but I'm learning a lot on the trip, both from everyone here on the forum, and by my own experiences the deeper I delve. This rifle stuff has me hooked. I'm obsessed with trying to improve accuracy. I'm just that type; I try to do everything I can as well as I possibly can. I know of David Tubbs. Everything I've read and heard tells of a fantastically talented individual. I am suprised to hear that many thing those two guys won were with stock rifles. It's amazing. I used to date a girl way back when who was on the Olympic team as a Bi-Athalon competitor. The bi-athalon the the sport where they ski and shoot. She had a custom .22 that I remember shooting one day at the range. It had peep sights. It would consistantly put every bullet fired from a rest at 50 yards in the same hole. I was blown away. I would like to shoot someone's big game rifle that is known to be a "5 shot ragged hole" producing gun just to see if my rifle skills suck or not. And butchlambert, you're right. To be good at any trigger sport, lots of shells have to be shot. When I'm practicing a ton in the middle of the season, I probably shoot 1000 rounds of 12ga per week. | |||
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R, Do a search on Dave Tooley. Dave has probably built more record holding long range rifles than anybody. He is also a great guy to do business with. tooleyrifles@carolina.rr.com, Dave does both the long range hunting type rifles and Br type. He is a very honest person and will deliver what he tells you he will deliver. He won't blow any smoke. Butch | |||
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if the gun matters, it must have some kind of living soul and a nervous system, or something.... or maybe it's the idea that the "quality' of who built it and what material/componants he chose to build it with makes it superior to another gun, oh wait, that would introduce the human variable again, wouldn't it?!. | |||
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I have built and/or owned some pretty good shooting hunting rifles over the last 40 years or so but I would hesitate to call any of them true 1/2 minute rifles. Especially for five shots. Mostly, they just kick too hard and there is always a flier. I have one 9 pound 308 which comes pretty close but it's not really a hunting rifle. I have built a few 7.5 pound 6BR's which were honest 1/2 moa rifles simply because they were more manageable than the heavier calibers. Some pretty good 300 Magnums would shoot the occasional 1/2 minute but I wouldn't have been able to guarantee it. To clarify, a half minute rifle, to me, is a rifle which you can pull out on any given day and, with witnesses, fire a five shot group and have a reasonable expectation of it being 1/2 minute or better. A half minute "F" class rifle has to be able to do this for at least ten shots. A half minute BR rifle would be an embarrassment to be hidden in the back of the closet. I've seen many shooters of "one ragged hole" rifles spend a lot of money at a turkey shoot and go home hungry. When the chips are down and the shooter's hungry for turkey, that accuracy just goes out the window! As most who spend any time on various internet sites are aware, the Savage rifles are an exception and most of them shoot 1/4 moa all day long! Regards, Bill | |||
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Bill, Luv you Man! You always have a way with words that hit home. Butch | |||
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After thinking about why I started this thread I have realized some things: 1. I started the thread to find out from the members, some of which I have to believe have great custom guns, who builds the most accurate custom rifles. I've gotten some great recommendations and I thank all who have suggested various makers. 2. Most of you believe a rifle (sporter type) that can consistantly fire 1/2 MOA groups is very rare. 3. Most of you also believe I'm crazy for wanting a rifle that is capable of 1/2 MOA or better. Some have said basically "you don't need that". Kinda reminds me of the Lib's shouting down the Rich telling them they don't "need" all that they have. Well, as you all know, each of our "needs" is different. If you guys are happy with a gun that shoots some kind of group that I would call a "pattern" like a shotgun, that's fine. I won't knock you for being happy. I want and need (for my own selfish reasons) a sporter rifle that I can shoot at and hit very small targets at very long ranges. It would be great to own a rifle that the bullet impacts exactly where the cross hairs of the scope are. I'd love to be able to shoot golf balls at 500 yards. Maybe this is a fantacy and no rifle exists that fits this description, but don't knock me for wanting one! I'm sure I could adapt to a rifle that was capable of this kind of accuracy and I think it would be a lot more fun to shoot than a rifle that you hope with. | |||
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Beautiful rifles, Customstox! | |||
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So TRUE!!! Lot's of internet experts around here!! When the chips are down and you are in a shoot off for s State Championship the rubber hits the road. Anyone can luck into a good group every once in a while--the trick is to do it all the time everytime!!  | |||
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[] So TRUE!!! Lot's of internet experts around here!! When the chips are down and you are in a shoot off for s State Championship the rubber hits the road. Anyone can luck into a good group every once in a while--the trick is to do it all the time everytime!! [/QUOTE]Yeah, and a rifle that shoots where you put the cross hair would help. | |||
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I can't get this "quote" thing right! | |||
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You have to put the word "quote" inside this bracket [ ] at the beginning of the quote, then you have to put "/quote" inside the same bracket [ ] immediately following the quote. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Re the inherent accuracy of the Browning BPCR rifles; the only, repeat the only, rifle to win both ends of the Pedersoli MOA Challenge was a stock Browning 40-65 fired by Dangerous Dan the Torpedo Man. Re the use of stock out-of-the-box rifles to win at Perry and other venues, by Tubb or anyone else; sorry, only in your dreams. I believe you'll find that, at the least, their rifles had been rebarreled and otherwise tuned. Even Dangerous Dan can't win any significant matches without his special alterations to his rifles. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Thought so J.D. Thanks for the info. Who is Dangerous Dan? | |||
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I think now that the picture is more clear as to what you want contact Clarence Hammond {717} 244-7879.. Go to www.Benchrest.com he's listed under Gunsmiths.. Clarence built a Switch Barrel rifle for me some years ago.. Fast service, Clean Work,Very Accurate.. Clarence's pedigree speaks for itself.. AK | |||
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Try Don Geraci-985-878-6113 | |||
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Thanks Gents. | |||
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"I want and need (for my own selfish reasons) a sporter rifle that I can shoot at and hit very small targets at very long ranges. It would be great to own a rifle that the bullet impacts exactly where the cross hairs of the scope are. I'd love to be able to shoot golf balls at 500 yards." Your quest is unobtainable. The kind of accuracy you are looking for can't be had on a consistent basis with a sporter rifle. Could you get lucky and hit a golf ball every now and then at 500...sure. I'll give you some backround. On Saturday, I used my 16.5lb Benchrest rifle to compete in a 600yd sanctioned match. I shot the gun in both Heavy and Light gun class for a total of 8 targets, 5 shots per target. Each target is judged for group as well as score. My aggregate(average) for all 8 targets was just shy of 4 inches(not great, but for the day, not so bad). My scores good enough to land me amongst the top competitors. The X ring on the 600yd target is similar in size to a golf ball, and that's exactly what I was shooting for every time I pulled the trigger. Guess how many times I hit that "golf ball" out of 40 shots??? Three is the answer. Actually, I couldn't even see the ten ring (let alone the X ring) all day, nor could anyone else. The mirage was so bad that the entire target was a blur from the time we started, until the end. The wind wasn't too friendly either. My point is that there are many variables beyond the accuracy capability of a rifle. Under ideal conditions, golf ball size groups are attainable at 500yds in Benchrest as well as some other match rifles. Hitting a golfball sized object at that range is an entirely different thing. It can be done, but not with regularity in a sporting weight rifle. If you want a true half minute big game rifle to take to the field with, I think you will be lugging something around 12 to 14 lbs when all is said and done, and the rifle WILL NOT be of the factory variety. | |||
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Hello J.D. Steele, I did not state or mean to imply that Mr. Tubbs, Maxberry,et al, shot box stock rifles at Perry, but Tubbs has won the "steel" games w/ stock 700's in 308/7-08. You are indeed correct that the rifles used at Perry by those level of shooters are as precise as they can make them It should be noted, there are no benches allowed at Perry, only slings, shooting mat, plus all the skill and luck you can drum up. Might want to keep in mind or in your dreams as you say, that much of the shooting is done with micrometer/iron sights at the 1000yd line. | |||
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Point Blank is right ..If you can hit a 9 inch Pie Plate at 500 Yrds.. You have an Accurate Rifle.. AK | |||
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Dangerous Dan is Dan Theodore, of current Long Range BPCR fame and also former BPCRS and CF Silhouette fame. Or perhaps 'notoriety' might be a better word in some folks' minds...(G) Dan is a Kalifornia engineer, rifle experimenter and indefatiguable gamesman who has made quite a rep for good shooting, a big mouth and some interesting rifle experiments. He's the only BPCRS shooter I know of who's actually 'rung' a Chicken in a match! But OTOH he's also the only shooter to win both ends of the Pedersoli MOA Challenge, at least so far as I know. He is the inventor of White Lightning black powder lube (one of the 3 best IMO) and also numerous high-sectional-density cast bullet designs, both with and without lube grooves. When you look up 'gamesman' in the dictionary, it's Dan's picture they show as an example (G). Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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If I wanted a beautiful rifle that was also accurate--and could hunt--I'd try to talk Jim Cloward into coming out of retirement. flaco | |||
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Inspired by your post I went to the local car dealer and asked for a car that goes 200 mph, gets good gas mileage, is easy to drive around town, and costs about $25,000. I then told them that I deserve it because I really really want it. Guess what they told me? | |||
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Hey, it was a question. I asked if it was a fantasy. If you know that it is, then just say so. I don't need sarcasm................. | |||
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Thank you much pointblank. That answers my question, pure and simply. I'd love to be lucky enough to fire a rifle as fine as yours. | |||
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Geoff, I don't see a mention of a price in the man's fantasy so your post is not really germane. What about discussing just how close he could oome to his fantasy for, say, $10K? How about $20K, after all it's a fantasy, right? Let's hear some constructive ideas! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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1/2 MOA is really all you can use and then some for a sporter type rifle, if you wanna shoot way out there at any live animal, more critical than the 1/2 moa is how steady a rest is, a .2 moa rifle is not going to hit targets way out there any better than a 1 moa rifle if you are shooting off shooting sticks or some other improvised rest. I use a big large heavy filled bag similar to the caldwell tack driver off a truck hood to take pot shots at coyotes way out there. most of the time even that aint all that steady. 1/2 moa is all you can expect out of any rifle that is a sporter, if you want more you better have a rifle with a beefier barrel on it, something bigger than a #5 krieger, I do have a tikka t 3 lite that is .5 moa capable, you could try one of these but to expect more accuracy out of this platform is insane IMO. still if you must, order a mcmillian stock, remington action, krieger barrel, and give westpac or greg tannel a call. in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC | |||
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I can do anything this guy wants and he will be satisfied. I can charge about $10K for what he wants and if it don't do what he wants he can get a refund; 50% of his original bill. How is that for a bona-fide guarantee. Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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When talking hunting guns it's damn simple WHERE DOES THE FIRST SHOT GO OUT OF A COLD BARREL that's all you need. | |||
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Unless you miss. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Hey Jim Kobe, The guarantee is great, but not worth it to me for 10,000. It seems from researching the net and many of the recommendations for riflesmiths here, it can be done for about 3,000. | |||
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He's provided you away around that. Tell him right up front, before he does any work, that you are not happy with it and then it will only cost you $5000.00. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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I have always found it a lot easier to build 1/2 MOA guns, than finding marksmen that can use the rifles potential. Finding a guy that can handle a 1/4 MOA gun is about as rear as a virgin in sweden... Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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They say that the only virgins left in Europe are ugly 3 year olds who can out run their brothers. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Funny reading about those who dont belive its possible to build 1/2 MOA rifles.. Snipershide.com, longrangehunting.com, 6mmbr.com are all god sites for longrange shooting and hunting. The most costly thing in your package, will be the optics. For long range shooting you need a dependable optic with repetable target turrets. The best are Schmidt & Bender PM II, 3-12x50, 4-15x50 or 5-25x56. Any of these are close to $2500-3000. US-optics and Nightforce are a close but S&B are better ( after alot of reading on differnt forums ) For hunting close to 1000 yards, I would prefer the 5-25x56. With just target shooting 3-12x50 would be my choice. If, you are just shooting to a 1000 yards, build a 308, bedded into a McMillan stock with a heavy barrel with flutes cut to 20". Shoot 175 Sierra Matchkings. You wont compete with the larger/faster calibers, but you will get to 1000 yards pretty easy. Shooting offhand to 2-300 yards are easy with this package. Hunting close to a 1000 yards are different. A 300 Win-mag or my favorit 338 Lapua Magnum. The rifle will be heavy, but thats the downside hunting long range.. | |||
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