Anyone ever dealt with these folks? I recently sold a rifle and had my FFL send it to them to do a transfer--an FN commercial mauser that happened to not have a serial number. They freaked out and called the ATF. I have no idea what the status of the transfer is. Triggers has been in possesion of the rifle for a week now. It is my understanding the proper way to document a firearm without a serial number is to simply put NSN on the paperwork and use any information stamped on the weapon as identification for transfer.

I very much want the purchaser to get his rifle and can't understand what the heck is going on.

Anyone else ever have a problem like this?

Andy

If you can site chapter and verse of the BATFE regs, it will clearly state (if they haven't already informed him) that this is normal with many actions made before the late 60's. I have had two transferred to me that had "NSN" on the 4473.

They are a new gunshop, advertises as gunsmith also, they aren't, obviously they don't have a clue, email or send them a copy of the regs, atf involved, they are probably going to wait on them

If you have received payment, cash the check and forget about it. You did NOTHING wrong, as posted above, the BATFE has provisions for this. It is not your problem if they do not know the rules needed to run their own business.

I would sic the customer on them It now belongs to him.

Rich

I have told the customer(a member of AccRel, that I choose not to "out" until he posts here)he needs to crawl up the FFL's ass and push the issue. I would like to know what has been done about logging this rifle into their books seeing as they have had it in their possesion for a week. Correct me if I am mistaken, it should be logged in after 24hrs, right? I have proof of deliver and the buyer is ecstatic about the appearance and condition of the rifle. The ball is now in the FFL's court. I suspect they may lose business over this.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by wyoske:
They are a new gunshop, advertises as gunsmith also, they aren't, obviously they don't have a clue, email or send them a copy of the regs, atf involved, they are probably going to wait on them

I am not sexist, but the FFL is in the wife's name and the gunsmith doesn't seem too bright either as I have been told by the buyer.

DREW

I had this happen on a transfer to a fellow in MT, through his FFL. What it ended up as, after the he said he would give it to the ATF, I informe him I would take it up with the local police as he had cashed the check and was retaining (stealing actually) the item. He gave it up in short order.

bluntly -
if they don't know what they are doing, they need to learn or get out, NOW

if they are accusing someone of removing serial numbers, because they are too NEW to know that guns made before 63 were NOT required to have SN, .....

I had a situation where i used a shadetree FFL to transfer an action, he insisted that he had to list a cartridge, even though it was action only. at the time I was thinking 257 roberts so just had him put that.

It's amazing the guys out there that have licenses but have no idea what is going on. Good luck to you and the buyer.

Red

Jeffe,

It appears to me that is exactly what they are doing. Accusing someone of removing serial numbers. The buyer told me that the FFL has admitted that she jumped the gun, by telling the ATF, and is waiting for their response. I figure this gun is going to be assigned a serial number now. Too bad!

I concur wholeheartedly...They either need to get educated and pull their head out of their arse, or find another way to pay the bills.

Sasquatch

The plot thickens...I spoke with the buyer a couple hours ago. He is getting pissed and will likely be making a reply here to let EVERYONE know just what kind of nincumpoops he is dealing with both the FFL and the ATF agent.

Sasquatch

What a sad state of affairs. I am the one who purchased this rifle from drewhenrytnt. This was my first time buying a rifle over the internet so this was all new to me (finding a ffl that would handle the transfer blah blah) supposed to be painless. Opened the box containing the rifle I was more than pleased with the rifle loved it. started to fill out background check as my ffl person started to log the rifle in comp. Then all hell broke loose omg no serial# we can't accept this will have to send it back on and on she went she got on the phone to the atf to see what to do saying serial# scraped off or not there. she did this all in a matter of a few min. I'm standing there dumbfounded, can't believe what is going on. The ffl was not able to get a response that day and would be calling me when they did. Upon getting home I did some research of my own. Looking up atf regulations etc. on serial numbers with the help of drewhenrytnt and the internet and others on AR. (I lurk a lot) Come to find out this is a fairly common thing with FN commercial mausers, not having serial numbers and that there are procedures to make the transfers. The next day I gave my ffl the information drewhenrytnt had on his purchase of the same rifle thinking the information would help her to figure out what to put on the transfer. Instead she gave the information to the atf. After stopping in or calling them several times and getting the same answer that "they are waiting on a call from the atf" and again another "we will call you" I stopped in today and they were not in and at a Gun Show". So I called the Wyoming branch of atf. I got a hold of a Steve McFarland who proceeded to tell me that it is illegal to own a gun without a serial number. I said that the information I had found stated otherwise and that the guns made prior to 1968 did not require serial numbers. He said that that only referred to guns made in America and that this rifle was a Mauser and made in Europe that it should have a serial number on it. Because Europeans have been requiring serial numbers a lot longer than the USA has. (can you believe this crap)!! Anyway he said he would look into it and call me. This is the second week of ongoing bull. At wits end, any suggestions would help. Appreciation and thanks to drewhenrytnt who is very supportive and patient!!

quote:

I got a hold of a Steve McFarland who proceeded to tell me that it is illegal to own a gun without a serial number. I said that the information I had found stated otherwise and that the guns made prior to 1968 did not require serial numbers. He said that that only referred to guns made in America and that this rifle was a Mauser and made in Europe that it should have a serial number on it. Because Europeans have been requiring serial numbers a lot longer than the USA has. (

Ask him to please quote the section and page number so you can refer to it in your e-mail, letter, fax etc to management at ATF and your US Senator's office. Document everything.

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
I had a situation where i used a shadetree FFL to transfer an action, he insisted that he had to list a cartridge, even though it was action only. at the time I was thinking 257 roberts so just had him put that.

It's amazing the guys out there that have licenses but have no idea what is going on. Good luck to you and the buyer.

Red

similar- had a 788 action transferred and happened to know it was originally in 6mm, and was so noted on the paperwork.

FFL asked if I knew the caliber.

Crap tell them to look at the bottom of the Over the counter transfer form OMB 1140-0020 (Form 4473)

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

Section D plain as days says :
Should you acquire a firearm that is not marked with a serial number; you may answer question 28 with "NSN" (No Serial Number), "N/A" or "none"

Tell them to read the dang form.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Tell them to read the dang form.

You're assuming some level of literacy and reading comprehension on the part of the FFL and ATF. If that were the case the buyer and seller wouldn't be in this position to begin with.

quote:

You're assuming some level of literacy and reading comprehension on the part of the FFL and ATF. If that were the case the buyer and seller wouldn't be in this position to begin with.

You're right Forrest I'm expecting too much.

From my understanding if it was assembled as a rifle in Europe it would have a serial number but if it came into the US as an action, prior to 1968, they did not put numbers on them. I also have an FN custom assembled rifle that has no serial number.

Rad

PM me, Im local and will handle your transfers.

Has anyone pulled the action from the stock to see if there are any numbers below the stock line? I've seen many Mausers with numbers stamped on the bottom of the front ring.

quote:

Crap tell them to look at the bottom of the Over the counter transfer form OMB 1140-0020 (Form 4473)

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

Section D plain as days says :
Should you acquire a firearm that is not marked with a serial number; you may answer question 28 with "NSN" (No Serial Number), "N/A" or "none"

Took in form after work today, drew her attention to section D she read it then asked "how do I know if it was made before 1968, do you know" Meanwhile she Said still waiting for atf call.

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
Has anyone pulled the action from the stock to see if there are any numbers below the stock line? I've seen many Mausers with numbers stamped on the bottom of the front ring.

John,

I removed the stock when I first got it home and the only identifying marks anywhere are the caliber: 300 Win Mag--on the barrel, 1-12--on the barrel, Fabrique something something Belgium on action and FINLAND on trigger assembly housing. Other than that there are no markings anywhere else. There is also no importer mark anywhere that I could find.

Andy

Back in the '60s I bought several FN Mauser commercial bare receivers from Flaig's in PA. They were an importer and sold many desirable items from Europe. These H-ring receivers were identical to all other commercial FNs I've seen but they didn't have any markings at all except for the FN logo on the solid left side. No proofs, no serial, no nuthin.

I remember using a 1903 Springfield bolt handle welded to a military Mauser bolt for one of these receivers, and then formed to the FN commercial shape. The smaller-dia 1903 knob was an almost perfect match for the FN size, and after polishing it the only difference apparent was the lack of the FN mark on the outer face of the bolt handle stub. Back in those days FN actions were relatively rare and desirable in-&-of themselves, and most of us liked the bolt handle shape 'cause it was new to us......

Point is, these FN receivers can be found with any combination of marks or no marks, and still be legitimate FN products.
Regards, Joe

quote:

she read it then asked "how do I know if it was made before 1968, do you know"

Tell her: Cause it aint got a serial number!

She sounds like a real piece of work. Did she used to work at a public sector job?

quote:

Took in form after work today, drew her attention to section D she read it then asked "how do I know if it was made before 1968, do you know" Meanwhile she Said still waiting for atf call.

She is as bumb as dirt. The form simply says if you get a firearms without a serial number them make it NSN! No place does it say you have to prove it was before 1968 and no way does it say you can't deliver it without one.

Only issue on SN is you can't knowingly own or sell one that has had the serial number removed.


At least now you know who never to deal with in the future.

Nah, she's gotta be way dumber than dirt. Outfits like this don't last long in the marketplace.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
Nah, she's gotta be way dumber than dirt. Outfits like this don't last long in the marketplace.

The scary part is how an idiot like that gets an FFL.

Sounds like it might be from a Sako rifle. I have on in the shop right now. FN made Mauser-type action originally barreled and sold by Sako, but this one has a serial #.

quote:

Originally posted by gzig5:

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
Nah, she's gotta be way dumber than dirt. Outfits like this don't last long in the marketplace.

The scary part is how an idiot like that gets an FFL.

In Kali, and probably the rest of the states, a person applying for a contractors license is required to take a test. Pass the test and you get your license. No pass, no license.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by gzig5:

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
Nah, she's gotta be way dumber than dirt. Outfits like this don't last long in the marketplace.

The scary part is how an idiot like that gets an FFL.

In Kali, and probably the rest of the states, a person applying for a contractors license is required to take a test. Pass the test and you get your license. No pass, no license.

In California, $$$ keeps your average idiot from opening ANY business. The competition is fierce and the overhead high. There are, however, inumerable long established operators of gun stores who do not know doodlee-jack about firearms or ATF regs. Walk in and ask a basic question about a common item and wait for the deer in headlights answer.

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
Sounds like it might be from a Sako rifle. I have on in the shop right now. FN made Mauser-type action originally barreled and sold by Sako, but this one has a serial #.

John
Do you mean that the Sako in your shop has no serial number on the action, but does have a serial number on the barrel?

I have a Sako in 375H&H that has no serial number on the receiver, but does have a serial number on the barrel.

quote:

no serial number on the receiver, but does have a serial number on the action

Who wants to see the name and phone number of the FFL holder at Triggers Gunshop made known here?

To me Triggers Gunshop in Mills Wy is plenty.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

no serial number on the receiver, but does have a serial number on the action

I can see how that might have been confusing!


I meant: "no serial number on the receiver, but does have a serial number on the barrel."

I fixed the original post.

quote:

I meant: "no serial number on the receiver, but does have a serial number on the barrel."

I thought that might have been what you meant. However I've been way off base before.

Did he ever get his gun from these idiot's gunshop

I don't know. I haven't heard from him for a few days now. I strongly suggested he talk with the FFL holder and have her return the firearm that she is so terrified of to my FFL and I will gladly ship it to WYOSKE who kindly offered to perform the transaction. I'll call him on friday and see how the week went, unless he responds here.

Sasquatch

i BELIVE in RSA, the barrel is serialized .. i heard that somewhere before, but I might be mis-remembering ..