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Stopped by the gunshop Tuesday after work to see about shipping gun back as drewhenrytnt and I had discussed. No can do because the ATF finally called them back and wanted them to send detailed pics of the rifle. So don't know if that is good or bad news. Anyone here have any experiences like that with the ATF? I would like to thank everybody here for their input on this whole mess lots of good info and suggestions. | |||
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Classic case of Federal incompetence, not to mention the complete stupidity of the holder of the Federally issued license. | |||
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May I suggest that you take personal interest in the picture taking to insure the dumbass FFL holder doesn't try to portray this as a demon seed. Make sure to get complete views. Show all areas of pitting rebluing, not just the area in question. The pitting on the rifle was not more than .010-.015 deep anywhere. There are a few NDT methods that would reveal the truth about if there was ever any number on the barrel. NDT X-Ray is about 100 times more sensitive than medical X-Ray, any metal displaced would show. Eddycurrent and ultrsound might also be useful. Make the dumbass FFL holder pay for it after proving there was never any issue then sue them for emotional distress, name the local ATF agent as an accomplice. Name the agent's supervisor for failure to properly train his field agent. I hate stupid people. With the economy the way it is I don't like seeing anyone lose their livelyhood but these dumbphux deserve to loose their license and any customers they may have had. It would be great if they were reading this. Please come forward and explain your incredibly stupid actions so we may educate you to NEVER MAKE THIS MISTAKE AGAIN!!! I think it wise to contact a local pro-gun attourney as well as your senator and govenor if they are pro-gun. Advise them of the situation and stick to the facts, you might be pleasantly suprised how fast this gets cleared up. Sasquatch We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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Did you get the BATF name and contact info from them? You need to do that and call the person at the ATF speak with them directly. It is possible that this may be able to be cleared up with a phone call or two. I know it sounds funny to say, but the few times I have had to call the ATF they have been quite helpful and also followed through on their promises. Now, what the skeptic in me thinks when I read your post is that the FFL in question here realizes that if they send your gun back they lose out on their transfer fee, so they have nothing to lose by perhaps fibbing a little bit because as long as they get their fee they don't care if they get to hold on to your gun for another month or two. for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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Hell, I'll pay their friggin transfer fee if that is all they are concerned about. Then I'll do my best to see them go out of business! Sasquatch We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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With all the drama these clowns are coming up with you might be able to sell it to the Discovery channel as an episode for their horseshit "Sons of Guns" reality (yeah right) shows. | |||
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At this point of the game what has happened is theft. I have half a mind to report the gun to my local ATF as being stolen and that I know who is in posession of the weapon. Then I plan to file a lawsuit claiming defamation of character for any involvement of my name on any list of the ATF coming from this transaction. Also Triggers should be aware they are in violation of recording this into their log book. This is in reality TSBotswana's fight and he should be screaming mad. We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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Before you call your local ATF, you might want to try calling them as I suggested the purchaser do, and get the ATF person responsible and talk to them directly. Right now you really don't have a clue what the FFL holder has told them, as they may have told them one thing and fibbed to you. for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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Until the rifle is transferred does it still legally belong to me? Andy We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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Not really, because you have the buyer's payment. Its his property being held by the FFL for transfer. If you need it to be yours for some sort of action, have the buyer email or write something returning ownership to you until the transfer is complete. That's a civil issue that the two of you can define however you want, as long as you both agree on the terms. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Triggers Gunsmithing 506 SW Wyoming Blvd Mills,Wyoming 82644 phone# 307-234-6722 ATF info Wyoming Field Offices Cheyenne Field Office Resident Agent in Charge 2120 Capitol Avenue, Room 3007 Cheyenne, Wyoming 82001 USA Voice (307) 633-9400 Fax (307) 633-9401 Cheyenne Satellite Office (Industry Operations) Investigator Voice (307) 633-9450 Fax (307) 633-9451 Area Supervisor 1961 Stout Street, Room 630 C Denver, Colorado 80294 USA Voice (303) 844-7545 Fax (303) 844-7563 For the ATF there are only 2 agents for the state. (hard to believe) 307-633-9400 Steve McFarland is the one the pics were going to. We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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Word on the street has it Triggers is getting a visit from the ATF and the shop is scrambling to get their paperwork and logbook in order! A little birdie told me so! We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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dolts ... "audit you, buddy" opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Looks like this little drama will be over Monday one way or the other. Still dont understand why it took darn near a month just to get someone to look at one hunting rifle without a serial#. From all the information and research I could gather I dont think this should have been an issue I am no expert tho. | |||
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It isn't an issue. Provided it didn't appear the SN was removed all they had to do was mark it as "NSN" and been done with it. Just like the form indicated. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Paul, These idiots have only had a license a year and do not know the difference in corrosion pitting and intentional destruction. That is the real problem. I suspect Bonnie was also one of those kids in school that thought the way to make points with the teacher was to tattle on every one of her classmates whether they did anything wrong or not. Bonnie Walker, how on earth did you even get a license? We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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The latest scoop: called them tuesday to see what was going on and was told that the atf agent came in the shop, took an ungodly amount of pics of rifle,told Bonnie "we will try to get this resolved as quickly as possible." That was it for the rifle. Dont know if they checked the books or not will try to stop in there tommorow to get more details. Can't believe that the agent would drive 300 plus miles just to take a bunch of damn pics! We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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The only detail I'd get from them is the name and telephone number of the ATF agent and speak with him directly. You already know the FFL is incompetent and who knows what they are saying about you to them. for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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Well, you can figure if the state is such a low priority that it requires only two agents, they farmed out the dullest knives in the drawer to go there. Doesn't sound encouraging. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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yeah damn the luck, all these law abiding neighbors I have | |||
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What is scary is tha the ATF had to drive to the store to deal with this issue. It should have been a no brainer.  As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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OK, I'll wear the dunce cap here. Invite the shop to join AR, and post their side of the story. These are are our kind of people (pro-guns), and most of us have had a less than stellar performance once or twice. Rich | |||
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First of all let me thank Rich for the heads up that our store was being discussed in this forum. It is our intention here at Triggers Gun Shop to provide quality service at an affordable price. We also would like to stay in business and follow the rules set in place by the powers that be. Our intelligence has been questioned and possibly our family heritage. You folks don’t think very much of us as is very clear in your statements and I guess that’s OK you’re entitled to your opinion. How bright or dim we are is subjective at this point and you may not be qualified to make that determination. Let me set a few things straight in the “facts” as they have been presented so far. First of all this has never been completely about the serial number. There were no requirements for a serial number until after 1968. We receive hundreds of firearms through this store without a problem. The rifle that is being questioned has been restocked with a beautiful piece of wood. It is checkered with an end cap of a different wood separated by a thin pin stripe like band between the two woods. The pistol grip is flared with the bottom of the pistol grip being of the same wood as the forend cap separated again by a pin stripe like wood between the two pieces. The bottom of the pistol grip is inlayed with a diamond shape material. The finish is high gloss possibly hand rubbed Tung oil finish. The bolt and all the small parts of that bolt are polished to a mirror finish. The bluing is a deep rich blue. So the metal before the bluing process must have had great care to polish it to a mirror finish also. There are markings on the left side of the receiver above the stock line that reads action made in Belgium. Those letters one can tell have been buffed and polished before the bluing process but are still clearly readable. All Mausers that I have seen have the serial numbers and identifying markings stamped on the top of the receiver forward of the bolt opening, over where the barrel screws into the receiver. The receiver was removed from the stock to make sure there were no other markings. All Identifying information has been removed. There are slight traces of stamping where the information should be, but the information has been sanded and polished out before the bluing process took place. It is not that the gun was not issued a serial number, the serial number was removed. The barrel has a “pitted” area only where the identifying stamp would be on the barrel. Ask yourself why somebody would go to all this expense of the stock work and the deep bluing and leave pitting in the barrel before bluing. The rest of the barrel has no blemishes just that one area. All identifying marks have been removed. Why would somebody remove serial numbers? This is not the kind of gun that traveled behind the seat in grandpa’s pickup truck. Why would the “pitting” damage only be in strategic areas where information about the gun is stamped? Why is the serial number polished out and the barrel markings not finished out but the pitting left? The gun is blued over the pitting… why? Now maybe the current seller of the gun was just too uninformed to see these red flags before he purchased the gun. Maybe he did the refinishing and removed the markings for cosmetic purposes. Maybe the current buyer is unaware of the discrepancies. Maybe, could be, what if. What I do know is any firearm processed through this store will be legal to the best of our knowledge. Now if I were going to commit a murder in California and I could not escape in my white Bronco what I would do is find a public forum to shout to the masses foul, stupidity, incompetence and take the focus off me and place it on anybody else that could be responsible. In this case it was the ATF, the FFL dealer or anyone else. Then by public opinion I am not guilty of any crime. Some of the masses would believe and some would see through the smoke screen. Certainly my example is much more severe but the reasoning is the same. The seller and buyer may be as pure as the driven snow but there are enough little things in this deal that beg for clarity. Was this a judgment call to contact the ATF?…You bet. When a gun comes to us it may be from the most respectable person that was ever born in Texas or anywhere else. Have any of you called your local law enforcement to check a serial number to see if the gun was stolen before you made the purchase? We have people try to purchase firearms that cannot pass the background check. Do I let them have the gun anyway because they seem like good folks… I don’t think so. Our paper work is always in good order so if the ATF does there spot inspection of our store everything is accounted for. There is a little more to running a gun store than giving in to the desires of somebody who will trash your name on a public forum. The ATF has been very helpful with us and are very aware of the big brother mentality by which they are perceived. With all that being said, do we make mistakes? Yes. Did we make a mistake on this deal? No. There were questions that could not be satisfied by the buyer or seller. We followed the rules. We believe that gun owners are good people and responsible citizens. If we thought otherwise we would not be in this business. But there is always some who will test the system or try to “get one over” on someone else. I am not suggesting that is the case here but one needs to be aware of the possibility and prepare for it. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused and any hard feelings. Hopefully we can be in business long enough to make some more mistakes and have an opportunity to resolve them. If you have any questions about any of this I would be happy to discuss it with you. You can call the store 307-234-6722 ask for Jon. By the way our transfer fee is 25.00. Would you go through all of this for that amount? | |||
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 Now for the he said she said. Just about every comment concerning this transaction concerned "MISSING or NO Serial#". Everyone agrees "IF" the serial number was removed it was a different issue.IF the disagreement was about a removed serial number and IF that was indicated to the buyer and seller then that info was not passed on. So I'm pulling out the to watch the arguement as to what was passed on as well as the agrument as to was there EVER a serial number and was it polished off.There is a lot of miscommunication thoughout this story. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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So what did the BATF rule on this????? | |||
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OK, now to get this settled... Rich | |||
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+1 And please be aware that the FN "Supreme" mauser actions at the very least were sold without serial numbers. They are also a desirable action, here is one on auctionarms that also appears to not have a serial number: http://www.auctionarms.com/sea...fm?itemnum=9454900.0 At any rate, at this point it is in the hands of the BATF and I'll be curious to see how and when it gets resolved. for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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Sgt Ryan, these FN Mausers are known to not have a serial number. Instead, on the left side of the front receiver ring they have a hieroglyphic series of proof marks where a serial number would typically be. If these were buffed down to the point where they were not readable I can see how one might think it was an obliterated serial number. If I were a betting man I would guess this is what you have presumed. If you need me to I can post a picture of mine so you can see what I'm talking about. | |||
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Let me start off by saying I am no expert on any of this. All I was looking for was A new hunting rifle. Tried to get this same rifle in nov or dec of 2010 but Drewhenrytnt beat me to it. Drewhenrytnt got a hold of me in feb wanted to know if I was still interested in the rifle because it wasnt excatlly what he wanted. I said heck ya. At this time I was aware of the pitting on the rifle, was no problem for me it will be used as a hunting rifle not a safe queen. I was not aware of any serial# issues until I went to pick up rifle. Keep in mind this rifle already went thru an ffl in Jan or Feb (not sure which month) As far as I am concerned at this point, when that call to the BATF was made, this whole issue was taken out of anyone's hands but the atf's. Was it the right call? Who knows, it was however the call that was made. If you want to get into opinions I can give you mine to me the pitting looked way to deep to polish out before it was reblued I was kinda going off of what the original owner said when he sold it to Drewhenrytnt which is... "Now, the bad part. It was purchased at an estate sale and had storage rust on top of the barrel right in front of the scope and on the trigger guard. I had my gunsmith clean and reblue it but the old pitting makes it look wavy under the blue on 3"of the barrel and a spot on the trigger guard. Also some pitting on the bolt cocking piece" I do not think anybody tried to scrape,grind,polish,erode,dump acid on the rifle to obliterate any marking or serial#'s in a strategic area. Like I said I am no expert. Am I frustrated? heck yes I am I want my rifle. Its been going on for over a month. I sure the folks at Triggers are just of sick of me stopping in every few days asking if they heard anything as I am of hearing still waiting for atf call. Now lets be clear I have always been treated courteously and respectfully from them they seem like really nice people. In my opinion the call they made did not seem like the right one (course I am on the other side of this fence),I think it could have been handled differently. Having said that I can understand there view of this to cover there businesses butt, Nobody wants to be on the wrong side of the law on this. Am I as pure as the driven snow? Oh hell no but I would never try to pull the wool over anyone's eyes over an Issue like this. We can all play the blame game all we want but it dont help nothing. This was going to be the first rifle I had bought in 12 yrs or more for myself, just my kinda luck! I did call atf today, was told nobody is in trouble they are going to issue some kind of id for the rifle so they can keep track of it. Meanwhile still waiting. | |||
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quite funny that when Drewhenrytnt bought the rifle he didn't have any problems, and now the idiots at 2 triggers really screw up... and after the the long story about the 'hundreds of guns we sell' story in sgt ryans speech, you'd think they'd have learned something.... nope.. go big or go home ........ DSC-- Life Member NRA--Life member DRSS--9.3x74 r Chapuis | |||
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Sgt Ryan post detailed pics to clear your name or sink it. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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In the end we may never know who was right or wrong. It is frustrating for everyone involved I am sure. It also dosnt matter wether or not any of us agree or disagree with the way the folks at Triggers handled this. Right wrong or indifferent it is their call period. In their professional judgement it is what needed to be done to satisfy the legal requirements. They were kind enough to come here and explain their reasoning for what they did. I would say they made a pretty good account of themselves in that regard. I would be interested to learn if there ever was a serial number and to see pictures of the rifle and the area in question. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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Oh, and for what it is worth, I own a couple of these NSN Mausers and had no problem with them. That said I couldnt see an area where it looked like anything had been ground and buffed out. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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Did you delete some of your posts in this thread? | |||
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I believe we'll capture this post, just for fun --
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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???? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I got an idea: Why not have the buyer claim he works for the Mexican drug cartels and the rifle is going to Mexico. VIOLA! The ATF will release it! John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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"All Mausers that I have seen have the serial numbers and identifying markings stamped on the top of the receiver forward of the bolt opening, over where the barrel screws into the receiver. The receiver was removed from the stock to make sure there were no other markings. All Identifying information has been removed. There are slight traces of stamping where the information should be, but the information has been sanded and polished out before the bluing process took place. It is not that the gun was not issued a serial number, the serial number was removed." Sgt Ryan, What proof do you in fact have that "all identifying information has been removed"? Have you had the firearm acid etch tested? Have you had any method of NDT performed to reveal the displaced metal where a serial number had previously been visible? As far as there being questions not satisfied by the buyer or seller, PLEASE SHOW US DOCUMENTATION THAT YOU EVER EVEN ATTEMPTED TO CONTACT EITHER MYSELF OR THE FFL THAT TRANSFERRED THE RIFLE TO ME! Fact of the business is you were provided with contact information for myself and the FFL in Texas that did the transfer to me and what did you do with it???? Turned it over to the ATF. Ryan, If for any reason I turn up on an ATF watchlist rest assured I will sue you and everyone involved at your shop for character assasination. By the way, nobody gives a flying tamale what the stock looks like. The stock is not in question. That is a crude attempt to "fluff" your post into making the readers here think that you really pay attention to details. In fact you failed to mention the word FINLAND stamped on the trigger assembly! Or how about noting the caliber is clearly visible 300 WIN MAG?! Come on dude!! Don't ever suggest again that I obliterated a serial number, you'll find yourself selling all of your assets to defend yourself in court. I question the amount of Mausers you have experience with. Please show us a picture of one with a serial number on top of the front reciever ring. The information stamped ON TOP of the reciever ring is called a crest. The crest usually indicates the country of origin or the intention of use for the rifle such as a MAUSER crest or a military crest with a year of manufacture. The serial number on all of the mauser actioned rifles in my collection is located on the left side of the front reciever ring. "Why would somebody remove serial numbers? This is not the kind of gun that traveled behind the seat in grandpa’s pickup truck. Why would the “pitting” damage only be in strategic areas where information about the gun is stamped? Why is the serial number polished out and the barrel markings not finished out but the pitting left? The gun is blued over the pitting… why? Your questioning my competancies is really starting to get my hackles up. I would be willing to bet that I have had my hands on more mausers than you have ever seen. I am fairly certain as are a few local gunsmiths that collect Mauser rifles that this is not the original barrel. Likely you have never rebarrelled a bolt action. Many folks want simple plain barrels and if one was going to place identifying marks on a custom barrel it would be near the reciever, not half way down the barrel. In my honest opinion the reason the pitting was left is that it would require reprofiling the barrel in order to remove. Why cut off that much metal and risk changing the way the rifle shoots, when simple bead blasting on a pitted area will remove the corrosion? Another thing, I showed the rifle to a local smith and we were discussing the pitting damage. He said in his shop he had several O/U shotguns with similar looking pitting midway down the barrel. He explained it is a fairly common to get them in for repair. Seems many hunters forget to wash the blood off their hands after cleaning their birds and grab their shotgun by the barrel thus inflicting similar damage. If put into a safe without a dehumidifier and forgotten for many years pitting such as that on the rifle in question will occur. Maybe you need experience in a very humid climate so you can see this more often. Go ahead and grab the rifle or lay your fingers across the pitted area and see for yourself. Ryan, if you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that serial numbers were removed from this weapon I'll personnally publically appologise and recant all of my statements and I'll pay for the cost of the NDT(Non Destructive Testing) that revieled said serial numbers. If you cannot prove serial numbers have been removed you need to publically appologise to Tony for keeping him from his property, myself for making wild accusations, and the ATF for wasting their time! Andy We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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First of all this has never been completely about the serial number. There were no requirements for a serial number until after 1968. I question your statement because it is in fact totally about a serial number. If it were not totally about a serial number we wouldn't be having this discussion. If the rifle had a serial number Tony would have had a scope mounted and sighted in by now. I have contacted the individual I purchased the rifle from to see if he has any of the pictures he posted showing the condition before purchase. Furthermore, I am not questioning which correspondence course you took or which school you attended. I am not questioning your desire to educate yourself about the kind of guns you might encounter as a smith/FFL holder. Heck, it is entirely possible ya'll never intended to earn a living working on anything other than AR platforms. Maybe you don't like working on feedrails, bending/welding bolt handles, making 2 stage triggers single or drilling and tapping holes in case hardened recievers or the blueing and various insundry work required. Maybe you prefer to work with Remys and Wenches where the work has already been done. None of that is in question. You claim not to have made a bad decision. I disagree. You failed to educate yourself about your trade and made an uniformed decision aka BAD DECISION Why did you not contact me? Why did you not contact the FFL that did my transfer? Why did you assume the serial number had been obliterated and create this mess. You claim the gun has been restocked. Please explain what proves your hypothesis! Also please prove the barrel is the original barrel. None of the Remys, Rugers, Wenches, or Mauser rifles I own have a serial number halfway down the barrel. This is in fact entirely about serial numbers! We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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Of the several commercial mauser action rifles I have, None of them has a serial number marked on the reciever. . | |||
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