quote:

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Originally posted by m1carbine:
Ha wildcat junky what are you going to do with your take off barrel. :-) ;-)
Ray

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I have mounted another scope on the rifle. It is a 2x7 Nikon from my M700 Mountain Rifle in 7-08. That gun shoot ,5/8" groups with that scope, and it holds zero well. The 3X9 42mm Kahles that was on the 8mm-06 Imp was sent back to Swarovski, but they claim there is nothing wrong with it. I am not yet convinced that my accuracy problems are barrel related, but I think they are. Allowing a few minutes cooling between shots seems to help, groups shot thus average about 3/4", but sometimes shooting from a stone cold barrel results in a shift in grouping. At its worst groups are about 2" @ 100yds, but I feel that there is more potential there with a "stepped" barrel. I just recieved two 98K barrels from Numrich today. One has an absolutely beautiful bore, it looks like a mirror. There are no seriel #s on it, I don't think it was ever on a reciever. The other is going back! The barrel I am replaceing has been "turned" and is chambered in 8mm-06 Ackley Improved by Harry McGowen. The chamber is cut to minimum specs, fired brass measures right to specs. If I do replace it, what is it worth to you? I would say that it is about on a par with the average "lightweight sporter" barrel in accuracy. It is a very thin profile and it would make an excellent choice for a light weight rifle to be used @ short to medium ranges. Shots on my property (from elevated stands) range up to 350yds. A bit further than I want to shoot with a 2MOA rifle. Any reasonable offer would be accepted. Harry McGowen rated the bore as "very good".

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

I was thinking of trying this round and if your willing trade maybe we can work something out.
Ray

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

quote:

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Originally posted by m1carbine:
I also could thread a machine gun barrel in 30-06 for a large ring mauser. Does the idea of a very heavy 18 inch barrel sound good?

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Sounds like a very good idea. I have a similar pet idea (using a 8 x 59 Breda barrel).

Carcano

quote:

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Originally posted by m1carbine:
Junky, You should look for a 98/22 with an excelent bore. It is a good reciver and you would then have a 29 in barrel that you could recamber and shorten to 28 or 26 inches. That would give you a good long barrel to get better performace.
Ray

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Well that would be getting away from the basic concept. That is, to take a "garden variety" 8mm M98K with the issue barrel and make a good performing rifle with enough energy to take medium to large game and a flat enough trajectory for a maximum point blank range of 300yds or more. The 23 5/8" (600mm) barrel will do just fine. If I hadn't had the original one turned, I probably wouldn't be re-barreling the action.

The gunsmith that did the work told me he wouln't turn the steps out if it were up to him. Nice of him to tell me that now! I had considered chryo, and I will probably have the new barrel chryoed. I just think that leaving the barrel as close to the original profile as possible is the best bet. It is hard to fault German engineering. I am beginning to read things about the soundness of the "stepped" barrel design, and I want to give it a shot.

If the 8mm-06 Imp. works out on the "stepped" barrel, I have two more to work with. The next will probably be an 8mm/376 Steyr Improved on an "intermediate length" VZ500 Yugoslavian commercial action with a M98K barrel.

I also have a very very nice M98K 1942 mauser with all matching numbers that has had the stock cut down. It has a very good bore. I will give it the full treatment (weld on a bolt handle, 3 pos. safety, grind the rear bridge and install scope mounts etc. but I will probably leave it 8X57 (Or how about an 8x57 Improved? Hmmmm.)

By the way, one of the barrels I got from Numrich really does have a fantastic looking bore. It is the smoothest I have ever seen including the 2 M700s I have owned. It looks as though it has been lapped, there are absolutly no tool marks that I can see with my magnifying glasses, even in the throat area. The rifling shows no sign of wear and is sharp and well defined from the throat right to and including the muzzle. I am returning the other in hopes I get lucky! (again)

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

quote:

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Originally posted by scout:
Looks like the 8mm-06 Ackley improved version has won here.

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*Grin*
No, the jury is still hanging out. And I shall repeat the obvious: it is plain silly to rechamber to a wildcat if a factory cartridge with the same performance *and* the same case forming options is available.

Carcano

quote:

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Originally posted by carcano91:
*Grin*
No, the jury is still hanging out. And I shall repeat the obvious: it is plain silly to rechamber to a wildcat if a factory cartridge with the same performance *and* the same case forming options is available.

Carcano

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Crimeny I can't believe how pig headed you are. Can't you get it through your thick skull that the loadings you are advocating are not readily available in this country?

If everyone in Germany is as dense as you are, it's no wonder you got your a$$es kicked in WWII!

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

The benefit of one cartridge over the other, in this case 8mm-06 vs. 8x64S, boils down to simply personal preference.

Performance - even
Ease of case forming - even
Brass - both can be formed from 30-06
Dies - 8mm06 are $54, 8x64S are $109 (retail prices from Huntingtons)
Factory availablity - 8mm06 none, 8x64S available

So, for the extra price of the dies, you can have a factory available round. What is there to argue about?

quote:

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Originally posted by m1carbine:
Sam,
I have to agree with you.
Junky and Scout,
your last post were very rude. You have to remember that he lives in a different country have has different resources available to him.
Ray

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

quote:

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Originally posted by m1carbine:
Sam,
I have to agree with you.
Junky and Scout,
your last post were very rude. You have to remember that he lives in a different country have has different resources available to him.
Ray

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Ray, it was meant to be rude! I realize that "he lives in a different country have has different resources available to him." THAT IS EXACTLY MY POINT! The question is when is mr carcano going to realize that? It seems that he is the one that doesn't get it! I have tried over and over to get this point across. Pehaps being BLUNT might get through, but from the response I have seen thus far, I doubt it!

Sam B: What about the cost of 8X64 brass? I can get 30-06 brass for less than $25 a hundred if I want. As far as scout being rude, I didn't see any thing rude about his post. Mine yes, it seems that nothing else gets through to mr carcano. For that matter at this point, I doubt if anything will! That's my opinion!

Can anyone put a $ figure on 8x64 ammo as it would cost someone that lives in the "American boondocks" such as I? If I were to go to any of the small gun shops in this area and ask for 8X64 ammo, all I would get is a blank stare. So I order 100rds from mail order, I can't affored more than that right now. What is it going to cost me? I can go up the road to the Taxidermy shop, and get everything I need for about $60 to load 100rds of 8mm-06, and be shooting this afternoon. How much will it cost me to get 100rds of 8x64 ammo? And how long will it take?
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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 02-01-2002).]

[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 02-01-2002).]

Unless you were loading rounds to take to an African country, where the headstamp must match the markings on your rifle? Are you going to have some 8mm-06 brass custom headstamped to match your rifle?

The point is that you CAN buy 8x64S brass and ammunition. No, you can't buy it at Walmart, but you can't buy 8mm-06 there either! Worse yet, you can't buy 8mm-06 anywhere!

To answer your question, 8x64 brass is currently in stock at Midway for $35 per 20. Loaded ammo is available from www.Outdoor-source.com for $14.39 per 20 and at the moment they have 64 boxes in stock.

[This message has been edited by SamB (edited 02-01-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by m1carbine:
Lets get back to the topic, Junky who is doing your gun work for you? What modifications or you doing to the rifle? i was looking through my barrels last night and i have atlest two that I think I will rechamber to 8mm-06 I also have a nice k98k reciver that came to me witha check bolt that I my just build into a switch barrel rifle. This will make a good test bed to compare different chamberings.
Ray

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Ray: If you go back to the begining, I pretty much detailed the modifications I made to my rifle. I had Harry McGowen do the work, but I am going to try another "smith" that I was recently referred to. He is a little cheaper, but more importantly, his lead time is signifigantly less. He has a good reputation, but I won't give any more details as I have no personal experience with him.

I had the stock made by "Royal Arms" and I am delighted with the workmanship and more importantly the "geometry" of it. The lead time left a lot to be desired,(for the stock) but I won't get into that here. It is "quarter sawn" AA fancy Black Walnut in the "classic" line with an ebony forend tip and gripcap with a 1" Pachmeyer "Decelerater Pad". It has a "shadow line" cheekpiece. I finished it myself with "boiled lindseed oil" I am going to give it a "top coat" of "Linspeed" oil. I like the oil finish as it is easy to maintain and touch up.

I picked up the 8mm-06 Imp. today when I was rummaging through the safe to get at something else. That turned barrel sure looks nice. (feels nice too) If the scope switch doesn't improve things, I think I will send it back to Harry for chryo. It's only $45 and it needs to be sent in for bluing anyway. Harry said that the Milsurp barrels tend to be stressed anyway, and I'm sure turning it added some also. I kinda suspect barrel stress as it does quite well with only a few minutes cooling (about the time it takes to walk to the 100yd target and back) It also seems to settle down when I have been shooting a while, but the group seems to shift,(usually 2" high and slightly left) then it puts shot after shot into the same group. It's one of those things that just drives me nuts, because I can't find the answer. The average hunter would never notice these things, and if it didn't turn in sub MOA groups with (some)regularity I would think "well it's a good woods rifle" and be done with it. The thing that makes me think it might be the scope is the tendency to shot two distinct groups when fired consecutively. The spread also tends to repeat itself. I have a M700 Mountain Rifle that has killed every deer that has been shot at with it, and it always shots sub MOA groups to the same zero.(when I do my part) It's kinda boring. LOL I now have the scope from that rifle on the Mauser and i will soon get to the range and see if that changes anything.

Go back and read the posts @ the beginning of this thread. If you have any further questions about the mods I made, just ask.

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 02-01-2002).]

Now, at this time I would like to make this heard.
Several times through this discussion I asked for information on loading this round. (8x64s.)
Some one has stated that it could be formed from 30-06 cases.
I also stated that I could find no reload data in any of my books. I only found data on 7x64, and the cases are smaller than a 30-06. This information makes the 8mmx06 more appealing.
At any point some one could have given some case specs. Again, I asked for. With the 8x64s so easy to make, and superior to the 8mmx06 why is the information NOT so readily available? In the USA. Why did Car not give up some of these details?

Now, in my reload books I can find 8mmx06 reloading data, 338x06, and 280 Remington witch is what this string was based on.

I asked to be taught, not taunted.

Scout�..

I disagree that availability is "spotty". It took me 5 minutes to find an online source for 8x64S (brass and ammo) yesterday. I could call today and have it on my doorstep tomorrow. Or, as in the example above, go to my local shop and buy reloading supplies (30-06 or 270 brass and 8mm bullets) to shoot today.

I'll also disagree on resale value. What is more likely to sell, a rifle for which you must immediately buy dies and load ammo before you can shoot or a rifle for which you can buy loaded ammo? My local gunshop would look at me like I had 3 heads if I walked in asking for 9.3x62, and certainly does not have ammo on hand (I already asked), but would anyone here not buy a rifle so chambered?

Let's say that 8mm06 rifle on the rack is stamped "8mm06 Improved". How do I know which one (there are at least 4 different shoulder angles)? I could have a chamber cast done, but isn't this supposed to be a money saving proposition? Once I determine which flavor I have, the dies for 8mm06 Improved cost the same as 8x64S.

As I said in my first post on this topic, it's a matter of personal preference.

quote:

---

Originally posted by SamB:
To keep the conversation alive (maybe we can top the "Matchking is not a hunting bullet" thread), I'll respectfully disagree with the idea that 8mm-06 has "won this round".

I disagree that availability is "spotty". It took me 5 minutes to find an online source for 8x64S (brass and ammo) yesterday. I could call today and have it on my doorstep tomorrow. Or, as in the example above, go to my local shop and buy reloading supplies (30-06 or 270 brass and 8mm bullets) to shoot today.

I'll also disagree on resale value. What is more likely to sell, a rifle for which you must immediately buy dies and load ammo before you can shoot or a rifle for which you can buy loaded ammo? My local gunshop would look at me like I had 3 heads if I walked in asking for 9.3x62, and certainly does not have ammo on hand (I already asked), but would anyone here not buy a rifle so chambered?

Let's say that 8mm06 rifle on the rack is stamped "8mm06 Improved". How do I know which one (there are at least 4 different shoulder angles)? I could have a chamber cast done, but isn't this supposed to be a money saving proposition? Once I determine which flavor I have, the dies for 8mm06 Improved cost the same as 8x64S.

As I said in my first post on this topic, it's a matter of personal preference.

---

I must disagree on you as to the "spottieness" of 8X64 Ammo availability. One source (manufacturer available in U. S.)of factory ammunition is hardly anything to crow about! When I started my Mauser project in 1999 I could find absolutly no information on this loading. I had heard mention of it, and was seriously considering having my mauser chambered in this loading for exactly the same reasons you are expounding. But when I started researching this loading, I could not find A: Any source of loaded ammunition. (I may not have been as "computer literate" as you) B: DIES FOR THE 8X64 WERE NOT LISTED IN HUNTIGTON'S 1999 CATALOGUE! (I have it in front of me) C:I could not find reloading data for this round. (again at the time I had less knowledge of internet searching and reloading data sources) The point I am making here is: I HAD NO PROBLEM FINDING ALL OF THE ABOVE FOR THE 8MM-06, including a source for loaded ammo!

As far as getting 8x64 Ammo through the mail, as I mentioned 8mm-06 is also available as loaded ammunition through commercial "reloaders"! Both would be subject "hazmat" charges.

As for the "8mm-06 Imp" stamping on the barrel: Mine is stamped "8MM-06 ACKLEY IMP." no problem identifying the "Improved" version there.

As far as comparing die prices: Please note sir that 8mm-06 dies are "group C" dies and are priced @ $53.95 retail @ Huntington's, and can probably be had for about $35 on the street. The 8x64 dies are "group G" and are, as you pointed out, the same price as 8mm-06 Ackley Improved dies.(or any A. I. dies) So------- the 8mm-06 does represent a savings when dies are purchased!

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 02-02-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
Can't you get it through your thick skull that the loadings you are advocating are not readily available in this country?

---

Once again for the terminally stupid - but please do feel invited to ask for repetition, eventually it may enter your comprehension in a few months...

Yes, the 8mm-06 is NOT readily available in the USA. True.

The 8 x 64 S is available as loaded cartridge and as factory brass via many US distributors (whose URL list was posted here) AND it is an easy reloading task from many common basis cases (just running it through a sizer die).
This dual option makes it much preferable to a wildcat-only cartridge with almost exactly the same performance. As simple as that.

Carcano

quote:

---

Originally posted by scout:
Several times through this discussion I asked for information on loading this round. (8x64s.)

---

No. You did not.
You asked, however, a general question on 28.1. at 10:14, and it was answered quite comprehensively already on 29.1. at 1:18. Further information about availability and prices was also added.

quote:

---

I also stated that I could find no reload data in any of my books.

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No. You did not. Not once.

quote:

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At any point some one could have given some case specs. Again, I asked for.

---

No. You did not. Emphatically NOT.
And still the non-question was already in general terms answered in my posting from 29.1. at 1:18.

What have you been reading instead, when others participated in this thread ?

quote:

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With the 8x64s so easy to make, and superior to the 8mmx06 why is the information NOT so readily available?

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It is. You did not bother to ask, alas.

Carcano

A: There is not a wide choice of 8X64 loadings available on this side of the pond.

So if one does not like the performance of any of these LIMITED SELECTIONS, we are back to reloading!

Given that we are now reloading the 8X64, (or 8mm-06)we have established that:

30-06 Brass is less than ideal for reloading the 8X64 as it comes up .050"+ short. (Not a problem with 8mm-06) We can use 270 or 280 brass, but now we are limiting choice again as Norma and Lapua do not make 270 or 280 brass that I am aware of. This would also preclude the use of "once fired" military brass ( an excellent source anywhere the CMP is established.) So it would seem that when we are reloading, (this is a reloading based forum isn't it) the 8mm-06 gets the vote for brass availability hands down. 8mm-06 -- 1...8x64 -- 0

Again as to reloading

Reloading data for the 8X64 is limited, esspecially for U.S. made powders. Data for the 8mm-06 is widespread. 8mm-06 gets the vote for published American load data hands down. 8mm-06 -- 2...8x64 -- 0 (still)

Resale value: this is a hard call, but I think that as dan belisle pointed out: us "terminally stupid" yanks would recognize the 8mm-06 on the rack but would be scratching our heads over the 8x64 (in most cases) No clear winner here as both would probably "gather dust". I would give the edge to the 8mm-06 given the "terminal stupidity" of the American shooter/reloader. 8mm-06 -- 3...8x64 -- 0 (still?)

So, mr carcano, given that most of us on this side of the pond are morons (except Sam B of course ) it would seem that your 8x64 would not necessarily be the clear cut winner. Please find it in your heart to forgive our inability to recognize the superiority of European designed cartridges. You realy must forgive our "terminal stupidity"!

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 02-02-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
So far we have established that:

---

The plural is out of place, methinks. You seem to be left as the only one who refuses to recognize realities.

But then, maybe you live in a parallel universe where empty cases and loaded ammo are still charged hazmat fees, where a long list of distributors throughout the US of A miraculously dwindles into naught, where a price of about $ 15.00 per 20 loaded rounds factory ammo (cheaper than many domestic common cartridges) magically inflates to an unknown multiple, where one cartridge with both factory brass and factory loads is "less available" than one that has *neither*...

...no, considering all this, I really do not think that your majestic plural "we" be warranted here. I think better of the readers of these boards than you.

Sincerely,
Carcano

quote:

---

Originally posted by scout:
Car, I looked in to the possibilities of doing this for the sake of what if. I could find no dies, brass large enough; I could not find the sizes either. I did find a Bren in 7mm, it seemed smaller then the 06. I did wonder about the poss. of using 280 Remington brass for the size factor. But please remember, I am just a baby in this wild world of hotrod wildcats.... I am sure we would all listen to your steps, and teachings for the pleasure of learning. At least I would I find I learn something from every one here no matter what��

Scout�.

---

Car, I did ask, I asked very nicley......

quote:

---

Originally posted by scout:
Car, lets run a test here. Let us say, you had no 8x64s brass, it was run over by a tractor. The train that was carrying the shipment to your way out of the way town, burnt to the ground. You need to put food on the table. No food marts near by.
What brass would you use to make cartridges for your only hunting rifle?

In a sense, that is what has happened here in the United States.

The Mauser actions we are using will only accept a 30-06-length cartridge. Hence, no 8x68s or 8mm mag.

Scout.
I to have some German heritage on my mother�s side.

[This message has been edited by scout (edited 01-29-2002).]

---

Car, Here is a nother post asking again.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dan belisle:
Ok, 8 x 64S Brenneke case dimensions; base is .472", widest part of case is .470", length to bottom of shoulder is 2.039", to top of shoulder/neck junction is 2.189", shoulder diameter is .427", neck diameter is .353", case length is 2.520". The case can be formed from 30-06 brass, but you end up with a short case (by .0526"). 270/280 brass would solve that problem. But I still stand by my first statement, on this side of the pond, the 8mm-06 is a known factor. No insult intended to our European cousins, but the sources for 8 x64S here are spotty at best. As for loading data, I have a lot of loading manuals, and the 8 x 64S is in only two of them. I know in Europe that wouldn't be true, but here it is. As well, in one of the manuals, the powders listed aren't available here. For value, on resale (what exactly is resale anyway?) the 8mm-06 will at least be recognised here, and anything based on -06 brass will be easier to move. And then of course, the "Not Invented Here" syndrome also comes into effect. No, if I lived in Europe the choice would be differant, but here the 8mm-06 makes the most sense. The 8mm-06 Ackley Improved is another step up, starting to bite into 8 X 68S ballistic territory. Out of the choices given, and for where it's going to be used, yes the 8mm-06 AI does win this round. FWIW - Dan

---

Thank you dan for giving me some specs... Scout....

quote:

---

Originally posted by carcano91:
The plural is out of place, methinks. You seem to be left as the only one who refuses to recognize realities.

But then, maybe you live in a parallel universe where empty cases and loaded ammo are still charged hazmat fees, where a long list of distributors throughout the US of A miraculously dwindles into naught, where a price of about $ 15.00 per 20 loaded rounds factory ammo (cheaper than many domestic common cartridges) magically inflates to an unknown multiple, where one cartridge with both factory brass and factory loads is "less available" than one that has *neither*...

...no, considering all this, I really do not think that your majestic plural "we" be warranted here. I think better of the readers of these boards than you.

Sincerely,
Carcano

---

Methinks that so far only one manufacturer with one loading has been referenced for factory loaded 8x64 ammunition in the U.S. I think we (as in all of the readers) would like to see more choice than that to consider this cartridge as better alternative to a stricktly reloading proposition. Perhaps there are more, but that has, as yet, not been established on this thread!

The point is, the limit of choices that we (as in you included) have established,(by thus far refering to one (1) manufacturer offering one (1) loading) means that reloading would offer far more choices. AND If one does then consider the merits of reloading data availability etc. then the advantage of the 8x64 is non existant. The option of one factery loading available in the U.S. does not seem like enough choices to make a decided advantage, and that is what we are talking about here, is a decided advantage. So far the best I can see is that at best (on the part of the 8x64) it is a draw! You sir are the one that started out to establish a decided advantage, and so far I have only seen one respondent that has supported your case, (Sam B) and even he has stated "it is a matter of choice". So far the votes still favor the 8mm-06 by a small margin, but still a majority, as in more than half! Unless I am wrong (and I certainly am not infalable)the vote is 8mm-06--4 as opposed to 8x64--2. Please correct me if I am wrong. Yes this is not enough to make a scientific choice in the matter, but you are behind by a 2 to 1 ratio at this point! The majority of readers of this thread that have responded, (as in WE) do not support you opinion!

mr carcano: would you please point out to me when I said that hazmat fees pertain to brass. Methinks that perhaps you are in a "parallel universe" of your own! In addition sir I have noticed that you tend to avoid points that you cannot defend against, but tend to single out those that are easy to attack. You failed to address the dificulty I had as a newcomer to rechambering and reloading in finding data on your beloved 8x64. Believe it or not that was my first choice, but I became discouraged with it because I (as a beginner)could not find near as much data, or dies etc. as was available for the 8mm-06

Sam B: I stand corrected on the brass issue, but again we are back to reloading aren't we?
Athough this does tilt things a little more to the 8x64, the availability of 30-06 brass is still much wider for the majority of us in the U.S.. The advantage (although small) still leans to the 8mm-06 in my opinion.

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

I can see how geographic locations have great influence on allot of caliber development.

I might also say, I have heard, not seen in writing, but heard, that if a curio is converted to a more modern firearm, it cannot be resold. The only value in a chambering then would be to the one holding it. If I am mistaken, so what. It is all in the eye of the beholder...

I am still going to go 8mm*06 Ackley Improved... GOODBY//// Scout...